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Dear Paul, Thank you for your reply; I enjoyed reading it - even the part about Gloucester! A few thoughts come to mind: I agree with your comments with regard to HTH except: 1) Any stop changes will, of course, only be silent at the console! Whilst I am aware that there are some builders who claim to have installed silent sliders and slider-motors, I have yet to hear any! Gloucester: I still like it! It may be interesting to note that at the time of the rebuild, there were also many genuine musicians and music-lovers who also liked it. These same people had found the 1920 H&H oppressive and un-musical, particularly when played loudly (to quote Herbert Byard loosely!) It tended previously to engulf the singers with a thick, unclear noise, apparently (I am not old enough to remember it, so I have to rely on contemporary reports). Yes, there were also many (like Howells) who did not like it. I am entirely sympathetic to their viewpoints (I am extremely fond of the choral music of Howells). However, take, for example, the music of J. S. Bach. Formerly, played at Gloucester, it was apparently unclear and heavy - the voice-parts were unbalanced. Now, it is a thrilling, totally clear sound - even when listening whilst leaning against the west door. As for the Swell Hautboy - I have heard far worse examples from several other builders in other organs, romantic and modern! With respect to the revoicing of the antique pipes, Downes has written that permission was sought from the Dean and Chapter. I cannot agree that it was one of the greatest romantic organs ever built! It was a fairly standard H&H rebuild of a Willis, in which Arthur Harrison had also revoiced most of the chorus reeds (for example, the family of trombi on the GO). Probably Willis enthusiasts of the 1920s were also not entirely happy with the H&H transformation. Then there was the Choir Organ - six stops, including a Double Dulciana - which contributed greatly to the bulky and unsightly appearance of the case, with its excresences! Possibly the organ builders at H N&B at the time were of a more nervous disposition then their colleagues at Durham had been twenty years earlier - they were apparently not frightened by RD - there are several instances of various H&H employees standing up to Downes! Having played for quite a few services on the Gloucester organ and had many lessons on it with DB, I still find it superb and so alive. The thing I enjoy most is being able to hear all of the actual notes, as opposed to some acoustically-confused impression! Yet, as I have said before, I am able also to appreciate many other quite different organs. There is always beauty if one is prepared to look for it.

However, I believe we were supposed to be discussing Trombe and Trompettes. (Yes, I know I am as guilty as anyone with respect to straying from the subject!) So, has anyone out there heard the new recording of the Temple Church H&H? I believe that James Vivian is the artist. Now that organ possesses two trombe on the GO, both enclosed in a separate box (as opposed to King's, Cambridge, where all three ranks are enclosed in the Solo box). Apparently, they are not the usual, opaque beasts; they are brighter and more free in timbre than normal Arthur Harrison trombi. Is this accurate? If so, does anyone know whether this was because they were revoiced when the organ was moved from the ballroom of Lord Glentanar? I must admit that I think that this is unlikely, since they still speak on a pressure of 15" w.g. (the same pressure as the Tuba). Any information (including whether or not the CD is worth purchasing) will be gratefully received.

Well, surely there would be little point in quoting instruments which were constructed after he had drunk himself to death at the age of forty-three! That is, unless we are talking about Janet Reger - not Max....

Indeed. Insofar as the suitabilty of swell reeds is concerned, for the lighter colouring of the flue-work, I find a good Hautbois indispensable. Next would come a really good Trumpet; (I generally prefer this to a Cornopean, but of course, it depends on the voicing of the individual ranks). In fact, an Arthur Harrison Swell Trumpet is often ideal - it has the requisite body, but with some fire and life, too. After this, I would wish for a good 16p reed, possibly a Double Trumpet. This should, of course, be a separate rank, ideally smaller-scaled than the unison and not too thick in the bass - too much weight there leads to an unpleasantly muddy effect and renders the stop much less useful for growly verses in the Psalms, for example! I have often wondered why builders transposed a perfectly good Hautbois (or Oboe) to 16p, merely to gain some sub-unison tone on the clavier. Such ranks are generally too thin and quiet really to be successful and it is then usually impossible to use it at unison pitch to colour the foundation stops. Whilst the 4p reed - Clarion - comes last, I am firmly of the opinion that it is a vital ingredient in the full swell effect. Ideally it should be almost as loud as the unison rank, but kept quite bright in timbre. Naturally, people will differ - this is one of the interesting points about the organ. There is almost always merit in every scheme. The difference challenges our inventiveness.

Thank you! I await further developments with interest.

Well, quite. For a year or so, I did learn on an organ which possessed (barely) a pneumatic action so sluggish that, had it been a car, one would have needed to give three weeks' notice in writing before overtaking another vehicle. Now that is pointless. I still maintain that there are just as many problems with mechanical action, albeit of a different nature. There was, for example, an organ somewhere in the southern hemisphere the action of which was so heavy that, upon being confronted with it, Marcel Dupré immediately changed his published programme. I still find little joy in an organ (of whatever age) which leaves shoulders, wrists and fingers stiff and sore after playing, say, the final movement of Vierne Symphonie 6me. But as we say, each to his own... Furthermore, what about all those lovely octave couplers? All those wonderful, ethereal effects! (It is worth remembering that Coventry added a number of octave couplers in the late 1980s and Gloucester added a Sub Octave to the Swell division at the recent restoration.)

To return to the subject - is anyone out there able to enlighten me on exactly how organ builders (of either kind) have apparently solved the problem of tuning discrepancies when there are instruments with an entire department (for example) in which the sound is produced digitally. Someone has suggested that a temperature sensor has been placed above the soundboards and this, in turn, communicates to the digital part of the organ. Well, all-right; but, what happens next - are the electronics now so advanced that this can introduce slight variations in the pitch of individual ranks of the toaster part?

Well, except that it was not reliable! H-J notoriously used rubber-cloth as a substitute for leather in the moving parts of the action; the result being that the actions lasted for a few years only (c.f. Worcester Cathedral). I am aware that the McEwan Hall, Edinburgh action lasted considerably longer. However the action used regularly to emit bright blue sparks. Te repetition and speed of the contacts was also somewhat arbitrary by the end of its life. So, MM, you proboably do not need to turn your thoughts towards self-slaughter - just find an un-restored H-J, switch on and touch the keys - at the very least, you will save on barber's fees for about a year....

I am sorry, I missed one - but since when have organists been proficient at counting?!

I assume that he was also able to adjust his combinations without leaving the seat.

Actually, I think that deadsheep meant the tuning faults book and the voluntary book - not actually tuning ranks during a sermon! (Although to be honest, this could sometimes be less boring.) :angry: For the record, deadsheep; no, the sermons are often repeated - by Matins on Christmas Day last year I could have preached the sermon. I had heard it already at the 08h Mass and the 09h45 Mass....Why? I do not normally repeat voluntaries within a year, except by request. Ah well....

An interesting scheme! Tierces in both mixtures! Hmm..... I forgot to mention anything with regard to empruntée - some judicious borrowing or extension in the Pedal Organ is permitted - but no extension or borrowing on any other department.

However, this is often easier with detached consoles! Whilst there are often inherent problems with regard to time-lag, there are many advantages - for example sight-lines to a conductor. The question of balance - I find generally, that it is far easier to assess balance from a detached console. Often with attached consoles, the case of the instrument overhangs the player, so one is shielded from much of the sound being produced. If there is a positive case behind, ther problem is exacerbated. (It is not always possible to open the access doors privided!) Ripon Cathedral has one of the most difficult organs with which to assess balance. The player is literally surrounded by the organ - visibility is limited (I am unable to recall if there is a monitor for the conductor) to peering through holes in the fretwork of the side-panels of the case. S. Sulpice sounds much better downstairs than at the console (I know that one would not normally accompany a choir on this instrument, save for things such as the Messes Solennelles by Vierne and Langlais, for example). It still does not solve the problem that several of the instuments which I mentioned do not have a mechanical action such as that at Girton. Even Bath is fairly heavy if everything is coupled through. In fairness, it must be said that the superb organ at Chichester is quite comfortable, even with the Solo Sub Octave drawn. However, each to his own!

Well, yes. However, I felt that it would be easier to design something larger first. To be fair, the church is a reasonable size: about 7-8 bays, with fairly wide aisles. Also, I had the pleasure of re-designing an instrument of just such a size. The scheme was subsequently carried out and the organ now stands proudly in a similar position to that described here. The disposition is: Pedal: 11 stops GO: 14 stops Swell: 11 stops Couplers: 13 It is difficult to write objectively about the instrument, since I am responsible for its design, including console layout. However, people seem to enjoy playing it. Therefore, I would be most interested to see what people make of this size scheme.

Hmm, yes it has - sorry, but I just had to reply to the comment by Rev. Newnham

A few months ago M. Lauwers posted an interesting thought with reference to the design of a two-clavier instrument. I found this fascinating, but I do not recall many replies. I must admit that, when I am not washing my anorak (it is a grey one, by the way) I like occasionally to while away what little spare time I have by dreaming-up schemes for various churches I have known. I am convinced that the smaller the organ, the more difficult it is to attain a really good, practical scheme. With this in mind (and if anyone is interested), I propose a scenario: Moderate-sized church - no carpet! Stone floors but with a wooden roof, so a bare one-second reverberation. No west gallery site is possible but an elevated position above the cantoris stalls is possible. There is, however, still ample height above the soundboards and room for a 16p front, if desired. The disposition of the instrument: two claviers (58) and pedals (32) fifty stops, with a maximum of fifteen couplers but not more than thirty-eight speaking stops (although the number of ranks can be greater). Action of choice. Mechanical is possible (but you may wish to consider having less couplers...) On the other hand, electric action (or other) can also be considered. It will re-use ranks from a pre-existing instrument but can have new ranks, if desired. Budget: flexible (well, I did say that it was a pipe-dream). [Groans off] If anyone is interested in rising to the challenge I would be delighted to read your scheme. However, if not then I can console myself with the thought that my anorak needs washing again....

Thank you, gentlemen - I will check out these sources.

Oh - there goes another dearly-cherished legend. Ah well, there is always Cochereau and his traffic-lights at N.-D.

This is an interesting subject. I am quite happy for a moderate-sized two-clavier instrument to be operated by mechanical action (including any combination mechanisms) but remain unconvinced by the perceived merits of controlling large instruments by mechanical action. I would be interested to know how often the tracker console is used on the Marcussen at the Bridgewater Hall (and how often the electric action console is used, too). Is it like Christchurch Priory, where the mechanical console is almost exclusively used for convenience when tuning? It is heavy and a little uncomfortable. Bath Abbey, too, I found unconvincing. The repetition is actually considerably better on my own instrument, which has a forty-year-old electro-pneumatic action which still functions exceptionally well. If a mechanical action of a large instrument is heavy, or in any way unwieldy, then any possible advantages are largely offset. Apparently, I hear from a reliable source that the organ of Sherborne Abbey is still disappointingly heavy*. This, after £350,000, new soundboards, new console, new action and new chassis. It was also computer-designed. Sorry, but I do not see the point. Why not have a good electric or electro-pneumatic action? Electric assistance is, I feel, also not the answer. There arise questions of simultaneity of the couplers, for example. In the case of Sherborne, this is the third attempt since 1987. Perhaps it would have been better to consider the possibilty that mechanical action is not always the most suitable solution! Certainly I believe that there is a certain amount of disingenuousness purveyed by proponents of mechanical action. Articulation (in the pipe organ sense) is perfectly possible on electric and electro-pneumatic actions. I have never seen the merit of being able to depress a key so slowly that I obtain a hissing transient preceding a settling to a determinate pitch. Apart from the fact that I do not play anything slow enough for it to be useful, I find it an un-musical sound! * In respect to its action - I am not aware of any attempts to lift it from the gallery...

Thank you for your help and, naturally, I will not breathe a word of it to anyone.... However, some definite information with regard to the outcome, when possible, will be gratefully received. I find it an extremely useful resource, particularly when considering invitations to play recitals, etc. There are, of course, all those lonely hours in the loft during sermons to think of, too... Just joking - honest

Um...then why play it, if you do not like it? Is that not a little like stabbing yourself in the leg with a fork - (it is nice when it stops)? Actually, it has at least two soft reeds. Presumably you do not like the timbre of the Choir Cremona? However, I cannot see what you could find objectionable in the tone of the Swell Hautboy. Either the GO Bourdon or the West Positive Gedecktpommer can act as a suitable accompaniment. In any case, the effect in the stalls of the Choir Cremona is mellowed by the superb acoustics. I like Goucester - but I also like Truro, Exeter, Bristol, Chichester, Salisbury, Ripon, etc. Each have strong and weak points. On each organ, it is possible to play musically and effectively. To play (and hear) the Dupré Prélude et Fugue in B major at Gloucester is a thrilling experience - the music is clear and totally alive. To play (and hear) the first movement of the Elgar Sonata in G at Bristol is, to me, equally thrilling - but in a quite different way. Personally, I would not wish all the cathedral organs in the country to sound the same - I can think of nothing more boring - except listening to a sermon at my own church!

Um...I have tried listening! A few thoughts (Yes, I know that this is not a sermon-posting board): 1) Actually the sermons in my church are often boring - whole chunks sound as if they have been downloaded from the internet. 2) Preachers often talk for longer than twenty minutes. As a teacher, I can tell you that this is sheer self-indulgence. It is difficult for most people to concentrate for this length of time at a stretch. It is even harder for most people to retain much useful information from such a large quantity of monologue. 3) Most people talk loudly through my carefully-prepared voluntaries. As far as I am concerned, the voluntary is part of the service. I find this rude (but un-surprising) and slightly annoying. Generally if one attends a recital, it is by the choice of the individual. I am subjected to (on average) three sermons each Sunday. In fact, there are a number of congregants who regularly converse during both the sung parts of the service and whilst I (or my boss) play the organ. It is, incidentally, these same people who cannot understand why I do not wish to support their 'special' services - wherein they will attempt to explain (for example) the Trinity using three flanellette bed-sheets of differing hue, roped together. After this, they will enjoin everyone to sing songs thanking God for (amongst other things) creatures which 'poo on my shoe'. That I find this attitude hard to comprehend is surely unsurprising! 4) Sermon construction: If I were to improvise in a competition in the manner in which some priests, readers and visiting speakers preach, I would certainly be disqualified for failing to stick to the theme (and probably for continuing after the movement has finished, as it were!) Sir, if you are in the position of both giving and receiving well-constructed and concise sermons, then you are indeed fortunate - as are your congregation! Unfortunately, I am not in such a position. Before you unleash a fiery response; no, not all my voluntaries are good and not all are without mishap or slips. However I try fairly to assess each sermon looking for its merits and salient points. Unfortunately, I can only genuinely conclude many times that they are unhelpful, repetitive and most definitely over-long! I honestly believe that the Curé of Ste. Clothilde (during the tenure of César Franck) had a point when, in reply to the observation of his young assistant priest that Franck's playing was both moving and uplifting, said "Yes, my son, he will bring many more people to God than you or I." Right, now I am off to purchase a hard hat....

I think that sometimes incumbent organists are inclined to fuss a little too much! Naturally one would wish to check the bona fides of any visiting organist - particularly one who is to accompany a service. However, I have also played at Coventry (for both recital and service-work). I used the Swell, Solo and Choir organs - judiciously, of course. Whilst it is true that I used the GO as a coupling manual when accompanying the choir, nevertheless, I found that it was necessary to use a fair amount of the GO for the hymns. Apparently, I did not blow the congregation out of the building, as it were! Friends are very quick to accuse me when I have played loudly, so I can only conclude that it was acceptable. Generally, an experienced organist, a good choirmaster (or mistress!) and a friend who does not mind walking around the building during rehearsals is sufficient to avoid inducing apoplexy amongst the more mature members of the congregation. With reference to awkward foot pistons: does anyone here have experience of playing at Durham before James Lancelot had H&H alter Conrad Eden's original eccentric (and anonymous) layout? I think that that had to be the most frightening foot piston scheme ever conceived - the organ equivalent of a fruit-machine

This was also helpful to me - thank you. However, I am apparently unable to obtain search results for an entire county. When I typed in a county (and included the wildcard) the software rather testily replied 'This would bring back a search of 429 buildings' (tsk! tsk!) 'And?' I thought to myself. Is there any way of achieving this, please? I could on the old layout.

Could anyone inform me where I can obtain a copy of Andriessen's Toccata, please? I have tried a Google search, sheetmusicplus.com/and several other sites - all to no avail. Any help would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you!