David Coram

I fully accept that part of my posting was ill thought out and inflamatory, for which I apologise. Of course the organ should have lived on elsewhere. Your claim that the organ builder personally crafted the list of items runs contrary to the words of a respected organ builder who has posted here, and knows the supplier from which small action parts were purchased. As to being "unfinished" - in my narrow cave-man definition of the word, an organ with excessively soft and sagging pipes, insufficient and inadequate racking, temperamental action in need of substantial redesigning and remedial work, revisions to winding and blower arrangements, and major repairs to electric combination action is one which is, quite clearly, not finished, since these are all faults which are routinely eliminated in the earliest days of design stage. This is not stuff which should be still hanging about ten years later. [edited]

OK, I'm always happy to stand corrected. Always suspicious of a witch hunt, I felt the quotes provided by the 'against' team were far too short to be of any real value. You have provided a most comprehensive description of an organ which certainly appeared to have its issues. Thank you for that. It is nevertheless easy to understand why a parish confronted with an organ less than ten years old with problems in winding, structural support, action, pipework, stop control and - well, what else is there? - would find it difficult to believe that an end to the problems could be in sight. [edited]

I have obtained permission of the copyright owner to publish a chopped-up sound sampler of this as yet unpublished CD. In roughly 10 second snippets, you have - Flute 4, Flute 8, Flutes 8 and 4, 842, 8421, 8421.... and Rrrrregal. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Dear old Balliol Hall. I love those words - 1972 H&H - Restored. Original pedalboard replaced and original swell pedal replaced. Frankly, it wasn't really restored, then, was it? Thinking of Oxford, a few came to mind - they are still out there, you know, the carnivorous ones - Wadham Coll. Stupendous Willis with no major work since 1886. http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N11045 Is Hertford still there - was nice Hunter 1931 - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N11019 Then I thought of Mansfield, a truly lovely Vowles in the Bristol Cathedral tradition. But R&D added a Vox Humana and a Tremolo, so it's out, but for proof that you can have recognisable Stanford and Wesley in Oxford, go here - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N11035

Well, in 1974 the most drastic tonal work was done, and IMHO most unsuccessfully - there was all manner of industrial unrest going on at the time, which strained the relationship. The 1982 work was largely down to the demands of the incumbent organist who wanted a Tuba. At the time some 1888 changes were reversed, in that the sharp Mixture became sharp again (ridiculously, it had since 1888 duplicated the III rank) and the second 4' Flute reverted to its original home at 2 2/3. The 1992 work shouldn't really be listed, since it was a very simple matter of some releathering and reversing the 1982 pressure increase on the Barker machine - pressures had been set very high, again in response to the demands of the organist who thought it was too unresponsive. It was more of an emergency repair than scheduled work so I'm surprised it's listed, except to support a certain amount of unfounded local antagonism towards the firm who did the 1982 work (which, curiously, prevails to this day, despite some of it being in my view the best work ever done on this organ). 1996 was the major overhaul, completed in 1997, and plans were already underway for the Nave organ. That it wasn't completed until a year later owes much to the health of the late Andrew Pennells, whose last job this was. I suggest that if you divide the total sums spent on these four occasions by the 152 years since the organ's completion you will find the costs very reasonable. And - red rag to a bull - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the organ's ability to accompany congregations. A normal Sunday morning gets 500+ and at times like Christmas and Royal visits it is usually around the 2000 mark - and it copes just fine. It is far more present at the back of the nave than either Salisbury or Winchester. It just requires a certain sensitivity to how it sounds down the building. If you play in a very rhythmic way, and accept that legato playing is something for just one voice in the music and not every voice, then believe me there is little that instrument cannot do, from verse anthems to the very spikiest Britten and Walton. [On edit: just so you know, I'm not exactly 'on song' with what was done, and how it was done, either. How it got a BIOS certificate I'll never know.]

Unfortunately, both this and Tony's two are excluded from the contest having fewer than 12 speaking stops (in the original rather long blurb). I figured that the chances of such organs surviving unaltered were much higher than something larger.

I love the Messingregal at NC. It sounds sufficiently like a small-to-medium electrical current being passed through a duck without causing gales of laughter. I love all the manual reeds on that instrument, actually.

Let's start with a tight definition of 'alteration' - 1) Any additional stop, unless occupying a 'prepared for' slot 2) Any replacement stop UNLESS the displaced rank, rackboard and upperboard are preserved 3) Any change of action affecting an entire division 4) Any change of compass 5) More or less any major rebuild by the more ruthless firms other than the most basic cleaning 6) Any change in tuning method from cone to slider, or change in pitch Readers may be surprised to know that a change of location within the same building is allowed under the current European guidelines insofar as they pertain to this thread, notwithstanding that in so much as this is the case there shall not have been any alteration to the dimensions or proportions of the case or the relationships between its component parts. You may add an electric blower, and extra points will be awarded for retaining hand blowing backup. Parish organs under a certain size can be reasonably expected to have fared better; around my old home town I can think of several contenders which have done 100 years and above with the odd dust-off. So, perhaps we should therefore exclude instruments of fewer than twelve speaking stops. The unaltered time period need not necessarily start with the organ in its original condition, but it must not have ended - i.e. if it was changed 2 years ago after a 400 year stint, tough. I have set the rules deliberately to disqualify any instrument I know personally, although some come very close; the former Walker at Rotherwick, entirely untouched since 1905 (save for the addition of an electric blower, but it retained its hand blowing and the little knocker to wake up the pump attendant)... until its removal 3 years ago (by me) in place of an electronic (not by me). So, as it's no longer there, its previous 102 years count as nothing. The glorious 1870s Hill at St Martin's Salisbury fails through having had the pedals electrified and new extension stops added by Nicholsons in 2000. Romsey fails through pitch change, new reed tongues and sliders in 1974, and electrification of the stop action with extensive behind-the-scenes alteration in 1996, even though it went from 1888 to 1974 without so much as a cleaning. This is going to bug me all night; I really can't think of anything of more than 12 stops which has done more than about 30 or 40 years without what I would call significant alteration from its original state. Can you?

Not including Electronics, for which three in 28 years would be par for the course and actually quite good going. For extensive rebuilding, there are obvious candidates for the crown down here on the South Coast but they've been brought up here rather too often.

... except for the example Vox provided, with a nigh-on identical stoplist (including Bassoon).

The NPOR also says the Fifteenth was added in 1827 along with the Gt Double.

Wow! A perfect model for the Bishop/Bumstead. I wonder what they did for a significant 2' in its first 90 years of life (presumably from its position the Nason is a 2' flute), particularly with all those fractions? Maybe an earlier unrecorded substitution?

This is a very handsome looking and sounding instrument. I was under the impression both from the NPOR notes and other sources that Bumstead's Choir Bass contrivance was for modern convenience rather than historically grounded. The only similar occurrence I know personally (albeit on only one stop), which is done other than with pneumatic or electric action, is at St Mary's Devizes, which is a wonderful thing. The notes there explain how it works. (The Great Stopped Bass must therefore have its own pallets, if the Swell keys are working directly on an action leading to the Great and only the Stopped Bass is sounded.) I would love to know whether this is original to Sweetland, who (being based at that time in Devizes and organist at this church) would have been adventurous with it. It could be later, but not too much, as in 1975 Rushworths would surely have stuck the pipes on a pneumatic chest as Daniels had done just down the road at West Lavington in 1948. I must confess that I have never knowingly encountered an example of a Stopped Bass for the lower notes except as a later addition, and am most used to seeing Swell bass keys set rigidly in the flat position.

There's no reason other than aesthetic and space ones why you couldn't economically fit external Schwimmers where the wind trunks go in and perhaps just keep one single rise reservoir somewhere for safety, and for action wind in the common event it's seperate from the soundboard wind. I've done it on two instruments where concussions had been removed altogether and double-rise reservoirs had been rebuilt as single rise for economic reasons (both by a now-defunct West Country firm).

If they uncover evidence that Henry VIII favoured regals played with plastic-topped sharps via an aluminium action and MDF soundboard then unfortunately the opportunity to create an authentic performance has been placed tenderly in a landfill site somewhere near Norwich.

I will never forget the sound. We really need Stephen Farr back for the right sort of choice and concise invective, but I'll have a go. For the nearest appreciable example of a similar noise, find the owner of an early 90s Nissan Primera and ask them to turn on the headlights with the driver's door open. It was unique amongst Regals in being just straightforward kazoo-like fundamental, having absolutely no perceptible harmonic development whatsoever. It didn't help that it was on its own chest, action and wind, unable to be coupled, and therefore could not be used with other stops as a way of changing their mood like the outstanding example on the box organ at St John's which turns the peepy little 8421 chorus into a burning cat fired from a catapult. Which is rather the point of Regals.

Well done! Another of life's little mysteries solved. I was once tempted to use it in the opening of the Wedding March but I hadn't had my cheque yet.

With all due respect, the stoplist says virtually nothing about the organ. On paper specifications, a Daewoo Matiz and Volvo V70 both have 5 gears, airbags, aircon, and twin sunvisors but you certainly wouldn't expect them to perform the same. The difference between the best opening recitals I have attended, and the worst, is that in the best of them (Thomas Trotter) the player has taken great pains to get to know an organ intimately before choosing how to demonstrate it in public. That seems to me to be essential. In the worst (whom shall not be named), a great deal of music has been presented but it was quite evident that the colours of the organ were not explored beforehand with any particular care - and my goodness me it's a colourful organ, as an imminent CD by one of our regular contributors will clearly demonstrate.

When she says 'pipe system' I presume wind system - and if the deficiencies start at poor planting (the only rational explanation for having more Copex than notes), insufficient pallet size (that was a wind-hungry pedal section with two 16' flues, a Principal chorus to Mixture, and three reeds) and continue on through inadequate trunk size (an explanation for the blanking plate on the photograph), then one also has to question the bits not photographed and assess that a lot of money may have been necessary to get to grips with fundamental problems. That solitary photograph of one side of the pedal suggests that remedial work has been needed. This instrument had a small footprint (the only chorus reed on the whole organ was a Chamade); minus the action, was there adequate space for reservoirs (the opening concert blurb suggests reservoirs rather than inbuilt Schwimmers, and there's no Scwhimmer on the pedal soundboard photographed). More recent comments on Mr Best's wall suggest that the digital replacement was purchased two years ago when the organ proved unreliable. Something which makes me question the motives behind the process are the claims of 'wires burning' and arcing. If the whole action was live (it says it was aluminium in the opening recital blurb) due to some wiring fault, this ought to be easy to rectify. It does seem highly unlikely however.

Presumably the latter, since the former is most certainly deceased. I had been told he was buried about six months ago but perhaps this is erroneous.

First para - the 18 stops which were kept at Brasenose were very extensively revoiced and rescaled, and I understand much more would have been done had funds allowed. The organ was basically not working in the late 80s when I first knew it and by the mid 90s was an absolute liability, with that dreadful farting duck perma-Regal manual speaking unbidden whenever you put a hymn book on the music desk or sat on the bench. I know there are better examples; I only picked on Brasenose to illustrate that its original maker still has a jam-packed order book and a loyal following, despite a 40 year back catalogue of similar instruments. That has not happened in the American example. Second para - well, yes, no denying that, I suppose - I was fixated on the distinct lack of crowds lying in front of the bulldozer and lost sight of that. But - and it's a particularly big But for Cynic - consider for a moment, if you dare, taking charge of the from-scratch, unbounded magnum opus of John Coulson, or perhaps Robin Winn (names chosen because both have passed on), and imagine the almost erotic thrill of getting the very last splinter into a skip. You're only human.

Absolutely and utterly right. Preferably a year after completion. The last thing a builder needs, or a client should be thinking of, is a shift in focus from "it'll be finished when it's right" to "it'll be finished when Trotter/Weir and the people who paid for it are coming". Even more incredible to me is when you see not only an opening recital advertised before a pipe has been voiced, but even a programme published.

Well I'm missing the point here possibly. This picture does not look that bad to me, although the pallets may be small for what seems to be one of two pedal chests. If it is the use of Copex tubing I have seen a lot of pipes so winded on a new mechanical action pedal organ only recently by a well known Uk builder. PJW I was thinking mostly of the Copex, of which there is an inexplicably prodigious amount. It's one of those things which really annoys me, like Pozidrive screws in "historic restorations". There are a few other mostly aesthetic details. I read all the builder's report quotes, which are selective to say the least and don't deal with the nitty gritty about what each firm would *do*. What they mostly have in common is an earnest belief that the organ is really very nearly finished, a great deal of flattery for the person who made it (whom they will all know was a recent or current organist of that church) - oh, and by the way, there isn't much work about at the moment and could we have the job please? But, then again, there are several UK builders who would cheerfully rip out and discard the very recent work of other UK builders. There are several who do (q.v. Brasenose College, Oxford to name but one of a great many - and a professional attempt at that, rather than - as here - a one-off first bash by a self-professed amateur). Who are we to say, without knowledge of the instrument, that this isn't another case in point? If sufficiently major work is required that it is necessary to call in six builders after seven years, there must be *something* in the water.

Well - going solely by this one picture it does appear particularly nastily made. For the local paper to carry absolutely nothing in outraged tones does rather suggest that this may not have been a great work of art. On edit - the only other reference I can find to this organ builder concerns a Dutch instrument, which of which it is said "in 2007 he completely rebuilt the organ's wind chest, and "voices" the organ annually."

I'm not going to reply again without copying it all back to the other topic. I think we're more in agreement than we both realise, except you are getting down to specifics whereas I was making only gross generalisations. Where it comes unstuck is that I was not intending you to compare 8+2 on one with 8+4 on another; ok, it balances, apart from the niceties of whether a 'gap' registration would be appropriate to the period; nevertheless, that's not like for like. I was merely wanting you to observe that one might range from 16-IV and the other might go from 8-III, and that if you compare 8 with 8 you'll find one a wee bit smaller than the other in conception, let alone placing and enclosure. The End.