contraviolone
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Posts posted by contraviolone
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Perhaps we should also say that Germany and France do not have our choral heritage? I'd much rather have, as Mark says, some dreadfully bad, dull and completely confused organs (tho I would call the likes of Salisbury, Lincoln, Durham and many others quite the opposite) alongside our tradition of choral evensong and eucharists, than some wonderful recital instruments in our Cathedrals with woeful liturgy and congregational services!
I did not wish, of course, to infer any detrimental view to our very fine English choral tradition, which is without doubt the finest in the world. By all means have suitable accompanymental back-up to this tradition, although I have found that the finest choirs barely need any accompanyment when performing (the beauty of a superb choir singing unaccompanyed is an unmatchable experience, IMHO). I am simply suggesting that many English Organs are compromised in their dual roles. 'Dualism' invariably always leads to weakness, not only in the case of Organs as musical instruments, but in life generally.
Here we have a splendid summary of the "british patient" caseYou need to drop the term 'British' Pierre. I am specifically discussing English Organs and the English choral tradition.
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The Gloucester organ, I may just possibly have let this subjective view slip out before, is remarkably unsuitable for the job of accompanying the english choral repertoire. In fact its bloody useless at it. Other recent instruments, which may be of great merit as recital instruments (you might think I'm talking about Bath Abbey but I couldn't possibly comment) pose significant challenges when it comes to sensitive accompaniment.
Surely it depends on whether you wish to listen to the Organ (any Organ) as a recital instrument, or as an accompanymental aid to choral music? I am personally not interested in listening to the Organ in this latter context: I want to listen to the tremendous heritage of German and French Organ music composed specifically for the Organ. Why are we all wrapped up with the desire to compromise so many English organs with the near-impossible task of delivering a recital instrument AND a choral support mechanism at the same time? Is this the reason why so many superb and exciting instruments can be found in France and Germany? and conversely so many dreadfully bad, dull and completely confused organs can be found in England?
The Gloucester organ may not be ideal for the English choral tradition. It may not be quite like the 'real thing' to be found just a short trip across the Channel. But what it can do is to sound at times quite exciting, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of our Cathedral organs in England today.
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Even more credit then perhaps for the results achieved by RD and H&H in that dreadful auditorium.
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It's just not an organ which I think I'd really like to hear in the flesh.
However, I'm always happy to be proved wrong......
I think you would have been shocked if you'd been present at RD's last recital at the RFH. He played to the auditorium in such a way that one was oblivious of the very poor acoustic. I had never experienced this before. Also, when the tutti was used the power was there, but in a startlingly 'unforced' way, with enough harmonic richness to keep you entertained. The reeds were certainly there, but they managed to blend themselves very successfully in the overall tutti (I suspect in this respect RD no doubt omitted some of the Great and Pedal reeds in the overall ensemble).
When the Organ is finally re-instated in its entirety it will be interesting to see how it stands up in the new acoustic, given that some 'rebalancing' work will be required to compensate for the changes in the auditorium. There may be a slim chance that the acoustic may be a little more favourable to this instrument. Either way, given the opportunity in the hands of a very skilled and sympathetic player, this instrument is a revelation. Please do not judge it by recordings alone. I have several recordings, and they are all utterly dreadful: dry to the point of being Saharan, and not one performance giving the instrument one degree of credit that it's due.
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You have made it clear that you don't like the RFH organ, but unless I have missed something, you haven't told us what you think is wrong with it. Do you think it should have had devotional tones and grand diapasons?
In my view, it is an instrument that worked quite well in a hall that was totally unforgiving to performers and instruments. Yes, full organ is harsh, but at the hands of those who appreciate that less is more, it can (and I hope will soon) make some ravishing sounds.
I agree with this view entirely. I listened to the RFH in recitals through the 70s and 80s, and I agree it could sound exceptional in the right hands. The best memory I have of this was Ralph Downes playing his last recital on the Organ, the delivery was superb (especially given his age) and the organ produced a very exciting sound, despite the dreadful acoustic in the Hall. Somehow, RD played 'around' the acoustic (if you know what I mean), he also achieved an intriguing balance of stop combinations that produced a splendid sound. I'm not saying that others could not achieve this combination of effects, but he could, to splendid effect.
Yes, indeed. It was a child of its time and it paved the way for other, much better instruments. But it was a misguided instrument for Ralph Downes to experiment with his mainly unsupported and ill-informed ideas.Well, clearly Holz Gedeckt you are not an admirer of Ralph Downe's work, or indeed what he stood for! We are all entitled to our opinions, even if those opinions are ill-informed. I think you were right when you say that RD was 'asking questions' in the RFH Organ build, but many of the questions at the time needed to be asked, and asked very loudly indeed. When considering the vast majority of the organs built in England before and even since, we should ask the same questions and say:
1) Why do we want to listen to fat, overblown diapasons that have no beauty or musical value whatsover?
2) Do we need to listen to chaotic chorusus that make a dreadful din, their only purpose not to excite or to stimulate interest in the instrument or the music being played but to get people out of the building as quickly as possible?
3) Should we really listen to enormous, supersonic ear-bashing tubas with little or no musical flair? and equally effective at getting people out the the building asap?
No doubt it may be thought by some that certain aspects of the RFH instrument may have the same effects, but I would disagree. Questions were correctly asked on a very wide canvas, in a new building thoroughly unsuited to the making of music of any sort, and in my opinion the work of RD was an unqualified success. More still, and coming forward in time, I just only wish that the 'eyesore' that is the RFH be pulled down and replaced with a far better building fit for its intended purpose, with an acoustic actually sympathetc to music generally AND this Organ in particular. Then I think we could all be proud to walk the ghastly urban wasteland that is the South Bank and at least admire not only the RFH, but also admire the true qualities of this brave and very exciting instrument.
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Earlier today I was having a face-to-face chat with Cynic and I asked of him if he knew if there had ever been a recording made of the Compton electronic, the forerunner to the Downes-inspired Harrison pipe organ that's now resident in the building?
The Harrison organ is not currently 'resident' in the building I'm afraid. Certain sections have been re-instated, the rest languishes in a warehouse in the north of England (awaiting funds for the completion of the re-installation). A totally disgraceful position, the authorities at the RFH should be utterly ashamed with this complete and utter shambles.
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The tutti at St. Sulpice is like an good St. Emilion, ripe with velvet chocolate and depth, with layers of complexity which gradually reveal themselves to the listener.
What a lovely analogy! Since I really like the merlot of St Emilion, I am really struggling to come up with a similar analogy for St Ouen! Er, the temptation to choose one of the First Growths is tempting, if one can afford it!
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Anyone who appreciates fine organs has to make the pilgrimage to Rouen at least once in their lifetime. We are incredibly lucky that CC had the opportunity, at the end of his illustrious career, to work with such a fabulous acoustic, perfect middle-height west end positioning, and such a goldmine of historic pipework, and that he used his skill, genius, and money to such spectacular advantage. We're also incredibly lucky that a century of vigilance has resisted modernisation, electrification and other "improvements". On the other hand, it's unfortunate that, unlike St, Sulpice, it can only be heard at a handful of autumn recitals each year, which are, shockingly, attended by just a handful of people!
Indeed, three times I've attended these autumn concerts (they were always in September) and all were poorly attended. And all were stunning recitals! On the third visit we were lucky to be given an encore, Vierne's Final of Symphonie No1, at which point a very large group of tourists entered the Abbey and were dumbstruck at the sound they were listening to. From their faces you could tell that they were entering into an experience beyond there wildest imaginings. The applause at the end went on for 5 minutes.
You could join The Organ Club! Members are going to Paris for eight days next February - 8 days because this includes two Sundays. We are to hear demonstrated and enjoy at first hand virtually all the famous Paris organs. The Club is good at several things, but almost top of this list is the thoroughness of the planning that goes into the annual tour. This ought to be a stress-free delight for those that simply join the party. Well, it'll be a jaunt of a lifetime for me!I'm definitely interested in this one, count me in!!
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No surprises but St Sulpice and St Ouen are my top two. I've listened to St Sulpice in the flesh many times, St Ouen three times. They are very different beasts. St Sulpice is tremendously grand with an incredible plenum, the analogy of the 'old Bentley' is a good one. St Ouen is incredibly dynamic from a list of only 64 stops, its 32' Bombarde perhaps for me the very best of its kind in the world. To listen to St Ouen on full organ is an amazing experience, the tremendous enveloping roar of the reeds simply breathtaking, without being OTT. This is where St Sernin falls down I'm afraid.
I've given up deciding which is best. Without doubt though listening to Widor on 'Widor's Organ' at St Sulpice is an unbeatable experience. When you're there you can forget all other Organs and locations, you can certainly bin all the Anglo-American organs ever made as they all pale into total obscurity when listening to this majestic organ. It is a tremendous shame that we have little to compare in England with regard to these two masterpieces. But then I suppose it's part of the fun to go over to France in the first place.
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Well I'm an avid supporter of Cavaille Coll but his work at St Sernin is not one of my favourites. The 32' Bombarde on the pedals is clearly listed but the bottom octave for me has never been convincing. But then it could be masked by the positively screechy reeds which for me are voiced totally OTT.
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Never liked the Cavaille Coll at St Sernin I'm afraid. Comes across as simply too harsh - the reeds especially so. And does it have a real 32' Bombarde?
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Wow this is certainly a very impressive looking Organ Barry! How would you describe the overall style of this instrument? (you never can tell for sure by looking at the specification alone).
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And for those in East Anglia, a happy White Easter, we've had just under 4 inches of snow here this morning. The snowmen are in abundance, but are melting fast!
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I believe you may be right Martin, I have several recent references to the specification pre-cleaning, and the additions you mention appear to be new.
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Have the Father Willis Dome tubas been replaced? and if so, why? Of all the variations of this dreaded species of English organ stop, the 16.8.4 Willis tubas of 1900 were the best I've heard, and were generally celebrated as such. No doubt they will be trumpeted in the Celebrity recitals later this year: I'll reserve judgement till then.
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Worcester Cathedral
in General discussion
Posted
No disservice intended to those foundations outside England (and therefore outside the Church of England). My comments are directed to the Organ and choral tradition as found in England. Indeed, I can think of two particular organs that I would prefer to listen to in Scotland, over and above a significant number of organs in England, (namely, Paisley Abbey, and the Hradetzky Organ at St Salvador's Chapel, University of St Andrews).
'British' is not the correct term, I'm afraid: let's just keep that one for the convenience of Passports, although even this may no longer be the case soon after 2010.