contraviolone
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Posts posted by contraviolone
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This still seems rather negative. I believe that the thread lamenting the (then) imminent loss of the former Hope-Jones/Harrison instrument in Worcester Cathedral ran for around thirty pages.
The choice is still simple - avoid this thread.
I completely agree with this sentiment.
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I would agree entirely with this viewpoint. I further doubt that the new console has any functional (or ergonomic) advantage over the old console - which I also liked.
The new Resonnance division appears to me to be entirely a whim of the present titulaires. To me, this latest rebuild (and bear in mind that this instrument is scheduled for further extensive work next year) has taken this organ somewhat further from its Cavaillé-Coll roots than anything Pierre Cochereau did.
Oh to have this instrument returned to either its 1932 or its 1977 state - I am almost at the point where I do not care which of these two incarnations it resembles; I should view either as a vast improvement on this latest bizarre scheme.
Thank you. And yes, I agree!
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A member of the German orgelforum.info just posted excerpts from Anthony Hammond’s book on Cochereau. It appears that, after C-C’s latest work, the organ never actually reached a state that could have been called finished, and that the Cochereau console was never more than a perpetuated interim solution. If there ever was a state that could claim to have some integrity, it was the state from 1991 on -- except for the blatant computer problems, the organ was fully functional and apparently musically sound, if only from impost level on up. If I compare recordings of before and after 1991, it is, to my ears, obvious that the rebuild (re-) introduced much of the C-C sonorities that the organ sadly lacked during the decades before. That being said, a reconstruction of the C-C incarnation of the organ would apparently be hypothetical, as the pipework and mechanism have undergone so may alterations.
I don’t know if I would go as far as to call the resonance a whim. I thought Cochereau’s small pedal division -- which is to form the core of the new resonance -- was much more whimsical than a full-fledged, expressive manual division, as it is planned now, would be. I also stand by my opinion that the current titulaires keep proving the usefulness of the mutations every single day. Let’s not forget that it was Cavaillé-Coll's idea in the first place that extensive use of mutations was the way to overcome the challenges of the extreme acoustics. Apparently he did not only think that they would work there, but that the organ could only be successful with the mutations, and would fail without them.
What I do not know as well is where they will put the box (or boxes) for that new expressive division. I also don’t get it why anyone could want a console that looks like a toy kitchen, with its light-brown stop handles against a background of identical colour. But I most certainly know that the current titulaires did prove that they do not act on whims, and that their musical judgement is sound (so to speak).
Best,
Friedrich
I quite like the 'toy kitchen' analogy! Almost immediately the thoughts of 'IKEA' came to my mind, and that really sums up the appearance of this new console. A very cheap IKEA kitchen suite. On some of the close-ups of the woodword (in one of the videos posted) the quality of the finish is actually quite dreadful. In all seriousness my young daughter could do a better job at cabinetry in her woodwork class than the pile of balsawood shown here.
I do not agree on the 1991 work though. For me the integrity of the organ, as accomplished by Cochereau's tenure, was fundamentally altered by that work. The overall balance of the organ, even with the Boisseau chamades as originally set up, was much better pre-1991. For instance, the new chamade additions were unnecessary. With all the chamades used, everything gets obliterated, and the balance is to my ears, wrong.
I also have a nagging fear (and I hope I am wrong) that everything to do with the Cochereau era is being slowly, and deliberately, erased. It may be that the present Titulaires do not wish to be reminded of the Cochereau legacy? Perhaps this is a 'French' thing? All I will say is that I preferred the 'Cochereau' organ. The next instalment can only be a further migration away from that organ. I really do think that's a shame.
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Yes, it is! Isn’t that wonderful? :-)
Seriously, the titulaires of Notre-Dame have come up with many interesting way to use their unusual wealth of mutations -- in improvisation. I have a fantastic CD of Leguay improvising, making use of many different mutation-generated colours.
Furthermore, on Fugue State Films’s Cavaillé-Coll set, there is (on DVD 3, Latry improvisation, at 2'49), a grand passage in Olivier Latry’s improvisation where he creates, aided by solid-state off-unison coupling, extremely colourful out-of-tune sounds on manual I that accompany, aided further by the sostenuto, a sombre Voix humaine duet on the Récit. It’s a dream, of a behind-the-looking-glass quality, to listen to -- apt to make ponder anyone who used to eschew the marriage of solid-state technology and traditional production of organ sounds.
Best,
Friedrich
I suppose it is wonderful, if you like mutations. In total there wil be twenty-one independent mutations on this organ, which is a staggering number, even for the size of this instrument. Still, it will be interesting to listen to the effects of an Onzieme 2 10/11.
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There was, from what I have heard, a switch at the St Paul's Cathedral organ which allowed the three West End trumpets 16/8/4 to be played on the same octave concurrently. Perhaps this was removed after Christpher Dearnley's time, as there has been no recent reference to it at all.
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I agree with all the comments regarding the appearance of the new console. I fail to see how such a design and appearance can blend with everything else around it? Perhaps that's not important though, so I presume that it's 'functional' aspects are an improvement over the previous console? (which I quite liked).
I also do not understand the purpose, if any, of the 'new' Resonance division. I know most of the pipework is derived from the previous Petite Pedale, but what's with the new mutations Neuvieme and Onzieme? Having googled these, their use in other instruments appears to be very rare. There is a Neuvieme at St Eustache but still, can anyone provide a pointer for their use? Any ideas what they sound like? Is this a case of mutation madness?
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On Thursday I visited St. Paul's Cathedral (London) for evensong. It wasn't the first time I'd been, nor was it the first time I'd been refused a seat in the quire. Why? "It's closed.... I mean it's full... er, just no" was the reply. In fact I've never been allowed to sit in the quire for evensong at St. Paul's, even though I've seen others being let in. This time was no different to the others - a strange experience of sitting under the dome, watching a group of people in the middle distance singing evensong, while I pretended to be part of the same congregation, and failed. It's not just a distance thing - it's partly sitting in a different part of the building, and partly that you can't really hear anything clearly unless put through the PA.
Anyway, afterwards - determined to at least see what the quire and organ cases looked like from close enough to see them in focus - I made my way around the nave altar and up the steps towards the quire rail. I hadn't even reached the top before someone shouted 'Move down from there now!'. I looked for riot police, but all I saw was a verger-type standing in the north aisle glaring at me, briefly distracted from the task of schmoozing with people leaving the quire by the aisle gate. I meekly walked off, and minutes later was herded at speed from the building by a beating party of guides and vergers.
Now, I've never been shouted at by a verger anywhere, let alone in a building as large and resonant as St. Paul's, and the fact remains that I don't know why, given that there were still people in front of me in the quire itself, standing around and chatting. Nor do I understand why I've never been allowed to sit in the quire - is there a secret password or handshake? But the biggest question I have is: why the attitude? In one of the most iconic places of worship in the country, why behave in such an unfriendly, dismissive, un-Christian way? Southwark is as intimate and friendly as a parish church, Westminster Cathedral is open to all without question, and even somewhere as posh as the Abbey greets evensong worshippers with courtesy and friendliness, and I've always been able to sit in the quire there. But at St. Paul's it seems to be too much to ask for a service sheet, let alone the chance to sit within half a mile of the choir, clergy and the more favoured congregation.
I like the building, the organ and choir are very good, and over the years they've turned out a good number of consistently excellent discs on Hyperion which I'm proud to own and listen to regularly. But set foot in that building again - no chance. I've not been that angry for a long time.
Shocking. I hope something can be done about this.
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Paisley Abbey is being restored by Harrisons and a 32' Contra Bombarde is being added.
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Yes thanks again to Simon Johnson and John Mander for giving up their time for holding a demonstration of the restored Organ. The demonstration of the new Dome reeds confirmed my view from the Celebrity recital by Olivier Latry that a better balance has been achieved with the Dome Chorus, although I must say the new Clarion is certainly punching away nicely at the same kind of level as the Trompette Militaire. The demonstration of some of the quieter stops was also a revelation: in particular the South Choir Claribel Flute, the Solo Corno di Bassetto, and most surprising to me the Solo Diapason (I was amazed at how effective this was under expression).
Great evening, thanks again.
Mark.
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I think you now owe Mr Johnson €37,000,000...
I think I'd better start playing the Euro Lotto now......can't guarantee the jackpot though
Generous offer Simon, please count me in
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The Cymbal III (29.33.36) has been gone for quite some time, replaced by Mixture III (22.26.29) toward the end of the 1990s I think. Why this was done, considering the duplication of the mixtures already there, seems also strange to me. I also think the flue chorus now lacks a certain 'brightness'. Certainly the Dome is now resolutely 'reed' dominated, perhaps the idea of the planned-for new stop (perhaps a large Sesquialtera) may tip the balance back a little bit?
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Hmmm, I don't think 'blazing yourself' across the internet is the real issue here. 'Organs' and 'organists' constitute such a miniscule interest that I don't think anyone would really care what you said if you were 'googled' and 'discovered' on the web. You might care though within the confines of the dusty organ lofts and gossipy cobwebs that is the organ world. So I guess that's why the pseudo's here wish to hide behind their silly pseudonyms. Totally agree with you David!
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So, now the work is complete, what are the chances of a Manders Forum Members meet and play at St Paul's? (That's St Paul's London - although you're all always welcome at St Paul's Birmingham!!)
A late at night lock-in to avoid those tourists and guided tours mentioned in the broadcast... and so that we could sample the new dome reeds! Is this sort of thing ever done there?
no chance?
maybe?
possibly?
About as much 'chance' of that happening as winning the Euro Lotto
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I think sometimes the reverberation in St Paul's actually works against the organ, certainly the Chancel organ anyway. To hear these divisions at their best you really need to be sitting in the Quire itself (although admittedly you can hear the North Case very well from the South Transept entrance). But the sheer beauty of these Chancel sections is self-evident. And to perform with this instrument is a very enjoyable experience. Prestigious venue apart (and I take your point on this Colin), the Chancel Organ is, without doubt, a real gem. I think you would be pushing into the realm of disingenuity if you were not to admit this to be true.
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And I wonder what superlatives we might use if the poor old RFH organ were to be moved into St Pauls?
That's a good point. Funds have yet to be secured to complete the re-instatement at RFH. It would be intriguing to hear this organ complete in a better environment.
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Great picture, who is conducting the work? Not Henry Willis III I'm sure!
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We absorbed Lewis in 1919. This 'second-hand' pipework was 'gone over' by Willis Voicers of the day (Deekes, father and son). It should not be forgotten that, at that time, it was not possible to use new materials - this was only a very short time after the end of the WW2
I am sure you are referring to the Lewis chorus binned in 1977 in favour of the new NPMander diapason chorus.
The 'historic pipework' I was referring to was the 'Father' Willis reeds of 1900: (1) Contra Posaune 16' and Trumpet 8', originally installed in the Solo box in 1900 and transferred to the Dome in 1977; (2) The Dome tubas 16.8.4 also installed in 1900. It is these five ranks which have been replaced in the 2008 Mander restoration.
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it has been rebuilt 5 or 6 times since 1872, the 1949 Dome chorus consists (supposedly - is this true?) of second hand Lewis pipes, the Trompette Militaire is supposed to be a genuine Wurlitzer post-horn....
The Lewis pipework was replaced in the 1977 rebuild Bazuin. The origins of the Trompette Militaire have been much discussed on here (and elsewhere). It would be nice to hear it sometimes though, last time I heard it was ten years ago I think. Perhaps it's not there at all really, and they're just not telling us
I would never nominate a single organ as the best in this or that country, but in general, organs where the vision of the original builder (or in the case of the RAH the visions of 2 significant builders) are preserved, interest me more than an endlessly rebuilt organ, even in a spectacular space like St Paul's.I agree with you here Bazuin 100% I think this such an important point. The replacement of all the 1900 Father Willis manual reeds in the Dome (chorus reeds 16.8 and tubas 16.8.4) with brand new Mander stops is a good example. Certainly the character of the Dome section is now significantly different. I'm not saying it's a bad development, in fact it sounded impressive to me this Thursday, but it is very different. I would say these replacements are more 'revolutionary' than 'evolutionary' in terms of the Grand Organ's development. Whether you think such replacements of supposed historic pipework from one of our historic organ builders is a good thing or not is certainly open to question. At this rate, will anything be left of the Willis pipework by the end of this century?
New console Notre Dame de Paris
in General discussion
Posted
I think DW you have let the 'cat out the bag'. Clearly Latry wishes to have his cake and eat it - playing the Notre Dame organ and dreaming about his 2cvs all at the same time.
Marvellous.
Never mind, we have St Sulpice across the river. A far superior instrument, and a far more welcoming church.