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S_L

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Posts posted by S_L

  1. ............................................ I would have liked at least one, more challenging work: Webern, Ligeti, Stockhausen, Berio, Boulez . . . etc. Just as the AB was, when I started its exam process in the 50s, music is assumed to begin with Bach ? !

     

     

    The 'establishment' have always been slow to react well to 'modern' music! - but it is better now than it used to be! I remember being hauled in to see John Stainer, the Registrar of the RCM, following a performance of John Cage's 'Theatre Piece' one lunchtime in, about 1967. He told us that he wanted no more of this kind of thing!! I played the Webern Drei Kleine Stucke in a lunchtime recital there in 1968 - two or three minutes of hard work (they ain't easy!!) and they were dismissed, almost out of hand, by most listeners as not being really 'serious' music! "SL likes his novelties!!"

     

    Likewise when I first examined for AB a heated discussion took place as to whether some Webern should be included on the Grade VI (?) list. Amazingly the piece made it onto the list but I think I only ever heard one performance of it!

     

    Yes, I would have liked to see something challenging on the list, I don't know the Gabriel Prokofiev and it won't play on my computer but, I suspect a bit like firstrees, I wouldn't know where to start compiling my list of 10 pieces to inspire young people - but, and it won't surprise readers, it wouldn't begin with Bach!!

  2. Do you remember a piece that you heard for the very first time and that made you say "Wow!!" I can think of a number of pieces, among them music as diverse as the 'Sonata sopra Sancta Maria' from Monteverdi 'Vespers of 1610' (in about 1970!) - and, around about the same time, Pierre Boulez Piano 'Notations' - the latter of which are being performed in the orchestral version of 1975 at the Proms tonight!

     

    Wow!!

     

    ..................... and the substantial work tonight - Holst - 'Planets' - wonder if they will use the organ or miss the part out - as so often happens! We shall see!

  3. I may be taking this too seriously but isn’t there some specific protocol about bishops seeking permission in advance from the dean before entering a cathedral? Or is that only when a bishop plans to enter their *own* cathedral?

     

    I think it only applies when 'officially' visiting! - but perhaps you are right - in which case I stand corrected - but I can see no reason why a Bishop shouldn't be allowed to sight-see - and say his prayers - like anyone else!!

     

    But my point was the courtesy and helpfulness of Norwich towards my friend and how I imagine it would be an excellent place for a 'Cathedral Residency' - and the unhelpful, rude and obstructive attitude of 'the other place' - not only to my Episcopal visitor but also to an organist friend who was there giving an organ recital there.

     

    Apologies - I'm sorry - I've hijacked the thread again - nasty habit of mine. It was meant as an aside!

  4.  

    ............................................. - and some of the friendliest, most helpful cathedral staff whom I have ever met.

     

    Some time ago, when I lived in the UK, I played host to a close friend who is a distinguished African Bishop. During the course of his visit to the UK we visited a number of Cathedrals including Norwich. We arrived, me in not-too casual dress and him in full episcopal 'choir' regalia. He didn't want any fuss but the staff there were hugely accommodating, very friendly and only too wiling to put themselves out to show my guest around the Cathedral and the environs of the Cathedral. They were absolutely lovely and, afterwards I wrote to them expressing our appreciation.

     

    On the opposite side, and I know a visiting organist had a similar experience when arriving to practice for a FREE organ recital he was giving, we went to a 'modern' Midlands Cathedral (work it out!). The 'greeters' were rude and unwelcoming to the Bishop (my visiting organist friend said that they nearly didn't get a Recital that day - he very nearly just walked away!) "He's not one of ours" said the lady on the desk referring to the, very obvious, member of the Anglican Episcopate! I, again, wrote to the then Dean - who, very strangely, wrote me a reply about balancing books!

     

    Very different reactions - I would imagine Norwich is a good place to take on a summer residency with a choir!

  5. Amazing, how many organists does a cathedral really need, surely not four. How many hours a day are the pour dears working? A few years ago we were all being told that the cathedral tradition was under threat from lack of funds. That was when a cathedral organist and assistant did everything. Now we have sub-assistants, vocal coaches, organ scholars, music secretaries or administrators, nannies for the boys.....

     

     

    Yes! - and the world has changed!

     

    Now there is a higher expectation - vocal coaches, organ scholars and a department administrator are a necessity to assist in producing high quality performances day in and day out, week in week out! Repertoire is, I would suggest, more taxing now that it has ever been! Scholarship and performance standards are higher now than, possibly, ever before!

     

    As for Nannies for the boys (and girls!) - also essential - because, unfortunately, we have evidence that, sometimes, children need to be protected from talented individuals who 'have a problem' - enough said! (I'm sorry - but I can't think of a more tactful way of putting it!!!)

  6. Hessle is an interesting place!!

     

    Raymond Taylor was Organist at Hessle PC in my day - I think he had been there since around 1950! The organ was a 3 manual Foster & Andrews - rebuilt, badly, by Hall & Broadfield - it had Tuba Minor extensions all over the place! The instrument I had my first organ lesson on was in the Methodist Chapel in South Lane in Hessle. The Chapel is long since gone but the organ found it's way to Bradford, to St Joseph's, where, I'm told, it sounds magnificent. It was a 2 manual Hopkins of York.

     

    Peter Allison - we must share some history if you lived 2 miles from Hessle PC - it would be interesting to remember instruments in that part of the world with someone else who might remember them!

     

    As for Howden - I had forgotten but I gave a performance (in my previous life!!) in Howden Minster of the Elgar 'cello concerto - I think it might have been 1970/1971 - but not later than 1973. I don't remember much about the performance - apart from the church being cold!!

  7. I was going to say................

     

    They seem to have a succession of Organists at Howden, none of whom seem to have stayed very long. I know Andrew Leech, who was Peter Fletcher's assistant at Beverley (and possibly, also assistant, for a time, to Alan Spedding) was there.

     

    But there is a plaque in the Minster to a previous organist who went under the glorious name of Farnhill Clayton - I was going to photograph it, but didn't! I think he was there for most of the early 20th Century.

  8. My father lives in Howden and I was also in Howden Minster last week!

     

    David is, as usual, entirely right about the Minster organ and, I also, have no reason to believe it is in anything but good shape! The Minster is another matter, however. I don't think I have ever visited anywhere that appeared so unkept and uncared for - a great shame!

     

    They organise Organ Recitals every so often but, I understand, they are not well attended.

  9. Looking through the documentation, I see that the sum set aside for the new Chancel organ is £35,000. I would not think this buys much new pipe organ - are they intending to install an electronic organ??

     

    The church I used to worship in spent £18,000 on a small box organ suitable for accompanying the offices in the side chapel. I think, perhaps, that is what St. Mary Abbots probably have in mind!

  10. In order to give a balanced viewpoint I give below the Response of the Vicar of St. Mary Abbots to the petition - together with the 'robust response'!

     

    The Vicar

     

    We could not share more deeply your concern for the musical heritage of the Anglican church (a glance at our weekly service schedule indicates how our Sunday and Festival worship is saturated with the great classics of Christian choral and organ music). As the Petition is addressed to me personally as Vicar, it might be worth pointing out that I am a founder member of the British Institute of Organ Studies, have researched the history of York Minster organ, and could not be more personally committed to the preservation and renovation of historic organs.

    Unfortunately it is not at all accurate to state that our pipe organ is ‘one of the least altered Hill organs still extant’. Your own list of additions and rebuilds (4 within 114 years) tells the real story: whatever the excellence of the original design and voicing, it was from the start largely immured within a stone chamber with the result that only a small proportion of the sound reached the main body of the church. The rebuilds were all attempts to remedy this basic fault, but only made the instrument louder and louder in the choir while still poorly balanced and distant as far as the congregation was concerned.

    By 2001 it was not by any standards a largely unaltered 1872 Hill: it had been altered many times over – but in that year a violent storm caused catastrophic damage. The soundboards etc were saturated beyond repair and the electrics declared unsafe. Following professional consultation it was agreed that rebuilding in the same situation would result in the same musical inadequacies. Since then we have with reluctance used as a temporary measure a 2 manual Allen organ (which has given excellent service) while drawing up plans for the long-deferred renovation of the whole church.

    A key element of our vision for the refurbished St Mary Abbots is the provision of a major pipe organ to serve our liturgy, to act as a recital instrument, and be used for a far wider range of performance and teaching than has ever been possible. We hope that this will incorporate the best of the Hill pipework – we will of course take our organ builder’s advice on this.

    Of course, traditionally-built organs are more sensitive to dust and dirt than anything else in a church, so it will be the final crown of our refurbishment programme. We urge all organ-lovers to support as generously as they can either our renovation appeal so that we can build the new organ as soon as possible, or the organ appeal itself, so that St Mary Abbots can continue and develop its commitment to the unique choral and musical tradition of the Anglican church.

     

    The response

     

    The situation in the chancel chamber is exactly as it should be: the organ’s primary role is for choral accompaniment, and as such it is only right that it should be where it is. That this is now regarded as a fault is merely a reflection of how greatly liturgical fashion has changed – as is the disastrous proposal to install a nave altar. The rebuilds were, as far as I can see, simply (a) Hill adding the Solo, ( B) HN&B rebuilding it once in 1927 [a mere four years after Dr Hill’s death] and then again in 1986 [simply replacing the action and console] and © the 1951 work was simply putting right war damage. Saturated soundboards can be replaced, pipework restored and, where appropriate, tonal alterations made via close examination of unaltered Hill material of the same era. Regardless of the instrument’s state, it was a very fine instrument, as Gary Cole, Philip Prosser and others have stated. Hill, Norman & Beard’s own work is now increasingly recognised as being worthy of preservation – the Royal Hospital School, Holbrook west end organ is a particularly notable example – and even if this instrument were only to be taken as a 1927 HN&B incorporating Hill pipework, it would still be worthy of restoration on that basis. The proposals I have heard for a suspended organ in the nave, perhaps as you say making use of some Hill pipework, would make a nonsense of the integrity of this carefully-designed George Gilbert Scott church – to what end, precisely? If there is a need for more organ tone in the nave (which I doubt – St Mary’s is not a huge church, and a 4/57 Hill should be more than adequate in this regard), then a nave division could be added outwith the chamber – but it would be entirely wrong to remove the organ altogether from its existing position. I strongly suggest, if British organbuilders are still obsessed with tracker action, suspended casework etc, that you contact Jack Bethards at Schoenstein & Co., who has produced some remarkable results in chancel chambers and is a noted authority on English organs – and is due to be installing a new instrument at St Bartholomew the Great, Smithfield in the next few years.

     

    I am not too convinced by the response but I too, like contraviolone, (perhaps for the same reason!) have, now distant, connections with St. Mary Abbots and I, too, will follow the progress of the restoration of the church with interest.

  11. I know this church well, having lived in Kensington for two years in the late 1960's. As Omegaconsort has said the information is on the church website.

     

    The appeal is a bold one, they have a 'Masterplan'. which 'proposes a complete refurbishment of the entire church building of all the necessary replacements and upgrading of services, and new elements that while retaining the Victorian splendour of St. Mary Abbots will make it fit for a far wider range of worship, praise and prayer and also a place of music and celebration and gathering that will enable us to offer our great church to many more events and projects that build up our community'.

     

    The pipe organ is mentioned. 'The old organ, unplayable for more than decade, will be removed and in it's place we will build...................... (vestries and things!!)'

     

    There will then be seperate appeals. 'The former organ was a distinguished instrument but quite in the wrong place. Hidden behind stonework and boxed into a solid chamber, it was successively enlarged throughout its 125 years of life to try and make it louder in the nave - but this largely made it deafening in the choir without improving sound elsewhere in the church. A major flood some 15 years ago rendered it essentially unrepairable'.

     

    We will build a completely new organ on a gallery above the second bay of the North aisle.................................. The console gallery will be able to accomodate small choirs and soloists performing out to the congregation. The new location means that the organ can be built with traditional design that have been tried and tested over centuries ..................... It will have a striking case that will add to the visual impact......................

     

    New Choir Organ. A small organ will be installed in the gallery that houses the console of the previous Grand organ ................ to accompany small services that take place in the choir alone.

     

    The total estimated cost of the new organ projects is £1,085,000

     

    Nowhere, that I can see, does it say that the Hill organ is to be destroyed, it is to be removed and, in it's place, are to be two new instruments. It strikes me, and I may be wrong, that they recognise that they have a fine instrument on their hands but that, and if it is historic and worthy they will have taken advice, it is beyond repair because of flood damage and being lain unplayed for over 10 years. It is also in the wrong place and doesn't speak properly. The solution to remove (it may, if it is that worthy, find a possible reincarnation somewhere more suitable!) and build a new main instrument together with a smaller organ for accompanying the offices in the choir seems to me to be eminently sensible!

  12. My wife does have connections with the establishment in that both her parents are interred in the adjoining cemetery so I may enquire if it might be possible to pay a private visit to see and perhaps play the organ.

     

    PM sent!

  13.  

     

     

     

    I know Olton Friary well - have played the organ many times - but have never played here for a service.

     

    I suspect that the organ came a very long way down the list of priorities for the Sacred Heart Fathers who have an enormous building to maintain with, few numbers living in it.

     

    In truth the instrument has always been a bit of a disappointment, it, certainly, didn't used to speak well into the church. The organ is much bigger than handsoff appeared to think and is a relatively large three manual. The pipework, as handsoff says is in a galley and I remember being told that the reason it didn't speak well was that the Choir organ faced into the Nave and the Great and Swell faced into what was the old monk's chapel to the right side of the Sanctuary. Tom Sheffield did some work on the instrument some time ago and, made a lot of improvements including, I think, rectifying this. I used it when I conducted Noyes Fludde in there in 2006 when it seemed much improved.

     

    The console is in the monks chapel just off the Sanctuary and facing it. It's a three manual 'Compton type' console with stop tabs. I always had the feeling that the instrument was on it's last legs. Firstly, there was considerable delay in the action and a lot of the instrument didn't work and secondly, it was almost impossible to hear exactly the noise you were making. As I said it did seem much improved in 2006 and my organist thought that Tom Sheffield had done a good job in the work he did which, I suspect, was a couple of years beforehand.

     

    I can't remember anything about the stop-list except that Tom inserted a new Trumpet on the Great organ - which had come from the Erdington Abbey rebuild of 1981/2 by Hawkins of Lichfield and had previously been in St. Stephen's church, West Ealing. I remember Tom telling me that he thought the trumpet, which sounded quite dreadful in the Abbey at Erdington, sounded fine in the Friary at Olton.

     

    I suspect the main organ is used only for weddings, funerals and one of the Sunday morning Masses. The 'Roland' keyboard that Handsoff refers to will be used at the 'Youth Mass' at 6pm on a Sunday which is the, seemingly, main Mass of the day, is hugely popular and attended by hundreds of teenagers!

     

    They have a variety of organists playing there who range from extremely competent (Cambridge Organ Scholar - FRCO!) to the embarrassing! Enough said!

     

    As for a stop list I can't help!

  14.  

     

    I know Olton Friary well - have played the organ many times - but have never played here for a service.

     

    I suspect that the organ came a very long way down the list of priorities for the Sacred Heart Fathers who have an enormous building to maintain with, few numbers living in it.

     

    In truth the instrument has always been a bit of a disappointment, it, certainly, didn't used to speak well into the church. The organ is much bigger than handsoff appeared to think and is a relatively large three manual. The pipework, as handsoff says is in a galley and I remember being told that the reason it didn't speak well was that the Choir organ faced into the Nave and the Great and Swell faced into what was the old monk's chapel to the right side of the Sanctuary. Tom Sheffield did some work on the instrument some time ago and, made a lot of improvements including, I think, rectifying this. I used it when I conducted Noyes Fludde in there in 2006 when it seemed much improved.

     

    The console is in the monks chapel just off the Sanctuary and facing it. It's a three manual 'Compton type' console with stop tabs. I always had the feeling that the instrument was on it's last legs. Firstly, there was considerable delay in the action and a lot of the instrument didn't work and secondly, it was almost impossible to hear exactly the noise you were making. As I said it did seem much improved in 2006 and my organist thought that Tom Sheffield had done a good job in the work he did which, I suspect, was a couple of years beforehand.

     

    I can't remember anything about the stop-list except that Tom inserted a new Trumpet on the Great organ - which had come from the Erdington Abbey rebuild of 1981/2 by Hawkins of Lichfield and had previously been in St. Stephen's church, West Ealing. I remember Tom telling me that he thought the trumpet, which sounded quite dreadful in the Abbey at Erdington, sounded fine in the Friary at Olton.

     

    I suspect the main organ is used only for weddings, funerals and one of the Sunday morning Masses. The 'Roland' keyboard that Handsoff refers to will be used at the 'Youth Mass' at 6pm on a Sunday which is the, seemingly, main Mass of the day, is hugely popular and attended by hundreds of teenagers!

     

    They have a variety of organists playing there who range from extremely competent (Cambridge Organ Scholar - FRCO!) to the embarrassing! Enough said!

     

    As for a stop list I can't help!

  15. I attended a funeral at this... http://www.oltonfriary.org.uk/ very attractive Roman Catholic church earlier in the week, my first visit there for some 20 years. The organ is in a gallery at the south-east end of the nave with just half-dozen display pipes on view. The deceased was an aunt of my wife's so it wouldn't have been appropriate to go poking around to find the console and have a look at the specification, there being no record on the NPOR.

     

    On first arrival I was concerned to see a keyboard of the Roland variety on view but was happier when a very nice string stop came into use from the gallery. It sounded to be a modest 2 manual organ with a single pedal stop but wonder if any local members have any more information or knowledge.

     

    I'll thank in advance for any replies as we're away for a couple of weeks from tomorrow.

     

     

    I know Olton Friary well - have played the organ many times - but have never played here for a service.

     

    I suspect that the organ came a very long way down the list of priorities for the Sacred Heart Fathers who have an enormous building to maintain with, few numbers living in it.

    In truth the instrument has always been a bit of a disappointment, it, certainly, didn't used to speak well into the church. The organ is much bigger than handsoff appeared to think and is a relatively large three manual. The pipework, as handsoff says is in a galley and I remember being told that the reason it didn't speak well was that the Choir organ faced into the Nave and the Great and Swell faced into what was the old monk's chapel to the right side of the Sanctuary. Tom Sheffield did some work on the instrument some time ago and, made a lot of improvements including, I think, rectifying this. I used it when I conducted Noyes Fludde in there in 2006 when it seemed much improved.

     

    The console is in the monks chapel just off the Sanctuary and facing it. It's a three manual 'Compton type' console with stop tabs. I always had the feeling that the instrument was on it's last legs. Firstly, there was considerable delay in the action and a lot of the instrument didn't work and secondly, it was almost impossible to hear exactly the noise you were making. As I said it did seem much improved in 2006 and my organist thought that Tom Sheffield had done a good job in the work he did which, I suspect, was a couple of years beforehand.

     

    I can't remember anything about the stop-list except that Tom inserted a new Trumpet on the Great organ - which had come from the Erdington Abbey rebuild of 1981/2 by Hawkins of Lichfield and had previously been in St. Stephen's church, West Ealing. I remember Tom telling me that he thought the trumpet, which sounded quite dreadful in the Abbey at Erdington, sounded fine in the Friary at Olton.

     

    I suspect the main organ is used only for weddings, funerals and one of the Sunday morning Masses. The 'Roland' keyboard that Handsoff refers to will be used at the 'Youth Mass' at 6pm on a Sunday which is the, seemingly, main Mass of the day, is hugely popular and attended by hundreds of teenagers!

     

    They have a variety of organists playing there who range from extremely competent (Cambridge Organ Scholar - FRCO!) to the embarrassing! Enough said!

     

    As for a stop list I can't help!

  16.  

    Is Gilian Weir really playing Commotio at the Proms this year? I know she did so in 1980, but I thought she'd retired now.

     

     

    My apologies - I have misunderstood how the website is working - and you are right, I was looking at a past performance of the work, she payed it in 1980, and not a performance for this year! That doesn't explain it very well - but if you look at the Proms website you will understand how I was confused - perhaps!

  17. First of all can I apologise if I have caused any offence to any member with my comments concerning the new organ at Buckfast Abbey.

     

    Secondly I need to say (firstrees) that I have absolutely no connections at all with the Abbey at Buckfast except that I happen to be a convert Roman Catholic – but there are 1.2 billion Catholics so that doesn’t count! I have never been to Buckfast. I know it is in Devon which is in the southern direction of the M5 but would need my sat nav to find it – and I find my way around Europe without a sat nav pretty well! I also think that I may have met Philip Arkright, the Director of Music at Buckfast, on one of the many occasions I conducted in the Metropolitan Cathedral in Liverpool but I could not say that we know each other. In short I can declare, absolutely, no interest in the project at the moment being undertaken at the Abbey.

     

    I agree with the website mentioned by Colin Pykett that doesn’t allow discussion of stop lists. On this forum I think it is where we are at our least good. At our best we are simply excellent. We share information and knowledge and are helpful to each other and, collectively, we advance the knowledge of the instrument and its repertoire among our membership. I can think of threads, started by members, that I have thought were simply excellent. There is one contributor whose encyclopaedic knowledge of instruments and repertoire makes him always an interesting read. Equally I have seen threads that I know, from the very beginning, are going to bring out the worst in us – and, I have to say, those threads have often been about discussing stop-lists!

     

    My feeling about this forum is that one way we advance our cause is by being professional, being seen to be professional and behaving towards each other in a professional manner. If I have failed, in this regard, by my comments then I apologise. Sometimes we don’t behave very well towards other members of our profession. In the past I have found some of the comments made, for instance, about performances and the persona of Cameron Carpenter offensive and I complained to our hosts who agreed and removed posts and, indeed, whole threads. Likewise I find some of the comments about the professionalism of those who have a vision of the instrument at Buckfast a little too close to the bone! I‘m not against criticism but I think there are ways of doing it, politely and professionally. I do have a sense of humour! I don’t think it is helpful to use inflammatory language and I don’t think it professional to openly and sometimes anonymously, criticise the work of another professional. I don’t think it professional to justify opinions with comments about another, supposedly esteemed but, of course, anonymous member of the profession agreeing with your premise. I’m afraid that smells too much like the Primary school classroom! I apologise if my retort was also infantile but it annoyed me!

     

    I don’t believe that, because someone is a ‘solid and long-standing’ member of the board they are, in all matters, correct. I make no apology for disagreeing with the way pcnd5584 expressed himself but I will apologise if I appeared to be petulant. I don’t have an opinion on the scheme at Buckfast, I have some thoughts and I will admit that the lack of a 32’ flue was one of them, and I mentioned this in my very first post but I accepted that those who had drawn up the scheme would have given this consideration and there is, presumably, a good reason why it hasn’t been included. I will admit to being a little confused about the cornet de bagpipes, the drum, nightingale and so on – but I am not sure that it is for us to speculate and I am not going to use emotive language to justify my confusion.

     

    We are at our best when we are informative and when we share our knowledge. We are at our worst, I believe, when we ‘nit-pick’, on bits of paper, stop-lists drawn up by other professionals who have a vision that we might not share or a vision we might not understand!

     

    Enough!!

  18.  

    Opinions which are shared by at least one cathedral organist, incidentally.

     

     

    Wow!! - at least one Cathedral organist!!

     

     

    That must make it all right then!!

  19.  

    Having read the scheme, I regard it as wasteful, badly thought-out and, in places, gimmicky.

     

     

    ......................................... Equally obviously, no doubt the incumbent musicians have thought carefully about the scheme, and this is what they want, apparently.

     

     

    Wasteful - badly thought-out and gimmicky! - but, no doubt, the incumbent musicians have thought carefully .............. and this is what they want, apparently!

     

    Don't be backward in coming forward with your opinions!

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