Rowland Wateridge

I thought we were discussing ‘wolves’! I’m ducking-out now, but just another thought. Has anyone read Stephen Bicknell’s piece about quarter-notes? He mentions it in this article - his ‘imaginary’ conversation with John Stanley. In my innocence, I thought they provided a link between pitch and temperament … (sorry, Colin, my final word for now)!

I defer to the expertise of others, but from my reading Stephen Bicknell clearly considers pitch and temperament to be inter-related. In the example of the B Minor Mass the transposition of pitch results in avoiding the ‘wolf’ in the temperament of the new key - in other words it is not solely a matter of pitch. It’s worth reading the whole of his article, and if people consider that Bicknell was wrong (or I have misunderstood him), it would be helpful to know reasons.

Stephen Bicknell’s article “A beginner’s guide to temperament” which I linked is illuminating about contemporary performance of Bach’s B minor Mass (and much else) suggesting that there was a whole tone difference between ‘Chamber’ pitch as used by the instrumentalists and the ‘normal’ meantone tuning of the organ, and that it was the organist who was required to transpose in the latter temperament to match the instrumentalists. There’s also a detailed explanation of how Bach overcame some of the limitations of meantone tuning and exploited them in the solo organ works, with suggested recordings to listen to. It’s worth reading. It occurs to me that this can be relevant to Wesley’s music. I have ordered Donald Hunt’s book about Wesley, and will report back if it sheds any further light on this subject.

Well, I’m left wondering how Wesley’s performances of his own music sounded on the organs tuned in unequal temperament. The mystery does not appear to be solved. There are several accounts of his superlative playing at Winchester and Gloucester, Birmingham Town Hall before it was retuned (and doubtless elsewhere), without anyone complaining of dissonance! Maybe I am still missing some vital factor! Nevertheless, this has been a fascinating and revealing discussion, with special thanks to Bruce Buchanan for the ‘missing’ details of the tuning at the Great Exhibition, Winchester and Gloucester, and to Colin for imparting his scientific expertise and practical knowledge. If this thread has whetted any appetite for further information about Wesley, I strongly recommend Paul Chappell’s book “Dr S S Wesley 1810-1876 Portrait of a Victorian Musician”: Mayhew-McCrimmon 1977.

Personally, nothing, but a Google search is quite fruitful.

I think you have probably hit on an answer. Weren’t organs of that era tuned sharp? I happen to have a diapason pipe from a chamber organ of circa 1820 labelled in pencil G#, and there is a difference of a whole tone between it and the same note (below middle C) on my piano. To this day we hear of organs tuned sharp being changed to modern pitch - and, indeed, sometimes vice versa, e.g., both have been done at Reading Town Hall! Scope here for a further ‘digital’ experiment with appropriate adjustments of both pitch and temperament. Over to the experts.

Thank you for this most invaluable information which answers so many questions. I think we can now safely say that Wesley composed the Larghetto contemplating that it would be played in meantone (there being practically no alternative among English organs when he composed it in 1840). By inference that would be true of his other organ works, including hymns and choral accompaniments. It has been very illuminating to learn that all the organs discussed in this thread were tuned in unequal temperament until W T Best’s decision to change the tuning at St George’s Hall to equal temperament (carried out by Willis) in 1867. I am pretty certain that I have read somewhere that Wesley was aware of this and deprecated the change. In his book ‘Forty Years of Music’ Joseph Bennett describes an episode of Wesley’s improvising in Gloucester to the amazement of Mr Bennett’s companion who had experienced Mendelssohn’s playing. The chapter on Wesley concludes with the anecdote that at the end of his life Wesley was complaining, in writing, to the Dean and Chapter at Gloucester that work on the organ was essential but, nevertheless, in a formal written reply he was told that no funds were available - a familiar story!

Colin, I can’t claim to have any expertise in this. I have read that the Larghetto is penitential in character. We know that it was written in 1840 while Wesley was at Leeds Parish Church (now Minster) and at that date we cannot be certain about the tuning of the organ there other than it would have been some kind of meantone. But I believe the Larghetto was written for (and possibly dedicated to) Lady Acland, known to Wesley as a former pupil, and later patron, from his earlier days at Exeter, who had a chamber organ at her Devon home. I suspect that there have been different editions with later ones (which might eliminate unwanted dissonances) for performance on even temperament tunings. Without wishing to appear rude (!), what edition were you playing from in meantone on your home organ? I’m doubtful that Wesley would have written unintended dissonances. I’m sure that someone, somewhere, must have written a scholarly work on this subject - which might yet turn up!

I also noted that (a fellow pedant?)! In fact there is an earlier thread with considerable discussion of “Choral Song and Fugue” and how it should be performed. I recall someone suggesting that they were two separate works which had conventionally come to be played together. I think a relevant question remains: how would they have sounded on the organs which Wesley on a day to day basis played: Winchester and Gloucester. Did they have ‘standard’ Willis tuning at those dates? Willis was the builder in both cases. Incidentally, mention of all of the organs at the Great Exhibition except one being tuned to mean-tone begs the question: which one? Was it the Willis? There were foreign exhibitors including Ducroquet from France and, most notably, Edmund Schulze from Germany. We have also previously discussed knighthoods for organists. Without going into statistics, my impression is that Queen Victoria bestowed more than any subsequent monarch, allowing, of course, that hers was the longest reign until our present Queen. I think Mr Stove is a little unkind to Wesley in his comparisons with W T Best. Best was undoubtedly the foremost virtuoso concert organist of his era, giving two recitals per week at St George’s Hall, Liverpool. But Wesley’s background was very different, deeply grounded in composing extensively for the church and involved in the Three Choirs’ Festival. In his old age, enjoying almost a semi-retirement at Gloucester, people were astounded by his improvisations in the style of Bach.

This might not contain any new ground to those currently involved in this discussion, but Stephen Bicknell is always good value and worth reading: “A beginner’s guide to temperament”. Apologies for the inversion of black and naturals which I can’t correct! https://www.stephenbicknell.org/3.6.04.php

We need to bear in mind that Wesley was born in the era of G compass organs with limited pedals (where they existed at all) tuned in mean-tone, and Hereford Cathedral organ was one such when he was appointed there as early as 1832. Doubtless he would not have looked on those features as limitations when he composed “The Wilderness”. Wesley still insisted on G compass and mean-tone tuning as late as 1855 at St George’s Hall, Liverpool (although Henry Willis baulked at the GGG pedals and imposed a C compass for them). Willis, I believe, had his own tuning scales (and the firm still does) so it’s not clear to me what the tuning would have been at the Great Exhibition 1851 or at Winchester Cathedral where, in 1854, Wesley was the organist and responsible for the acquisition of the organ, now with wholly C compass. Rightly or wrongly, I have always assumed it was not tuned in mean-tone. I think a probably fairer summary of Wesley would be that he was largely fixed in his ways while living through rapidly changing times.

In fact NPOR did supply the answer here on N06528. It just needed someone with local knowledge to make the connection. When entire organs are moved, NPOR almost invariably cross-references the details. This case only concerned a single division and (subject to correction) the move happened before NPOR even existed. Incidentally how many people using NPOR understand that the work is done by unpaid volunteers - and how many, I wonder, especially the occasional grumblers, ever donate! I recall someone complaining who even thought it should be a kind of organists’ employment agency! It’s a wonderful facility.

Well, I can’t answer from personal knowledge questions about Norwich. Peter De Vile says that the Echo had definitely gone by 1990. The NPOR 1970 survey lists the last work done on the organ by HN&B in 1968/1970, so that seems a reasonable inference to draw. If the point is important (!) only someone with local knowledge can supply an answer. Frank Fowler would have known but, sadly, he is no longer with us.

Martin’s first post mentioned some fairly modest work to be done at Winchester: a general clean and addition of a swell vox humana. This last is interesting as the organ had a Father Wills vox humana until 1938 when surprisingly (?) removed in the first H&H rebuild. I have heard Martin Neary and David Hill synthesising a fairly convincing vox humana sound since, but both must have regretted the absence of the original FW stop. I wonder whether the new one will have its own chest. I would have thought there were times (e.g., Guilmant I) where the vox humana might require accompaniment on other swell stops, but I suppose this can be overcome by modern gadgetry, transfers, etc. Do people think that, generally, the solo is a more suitable place for it?

Apologies for usurping a reply to this. There are three NPOR entries. The answer, I think, is NPOR N06484, surveyed 1970: HN&B “Modified 1968/70“ and the Echo Organ had gone then.

I think that happened to all of us when we were told that the Mander site was to close, and began again from scratch when the site was restored under the present ownership. Not certain that this will work, but this was the previous thread with your comment (scroll down to 23 December 2016). https://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/topic/4157-the-royal-festival-hall-organ-what-if/#comment-71245

An unexpected discovery, posted on the John Compton thread, but possibly more appropriately here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg2dQsyQKxs Musing Muso’s organ at the basilica-like church of Our Lady and St Joseph, Keighley played here by Jonathan Scott.

I had contact with MM some time ago, but cannot now find his email address. Equally I have drawn a blank on his church website, but found this recent recording by Jonathan Scott of the organ which MM spoke of in such glowing terms, I think justifiably. The church has an almost basilica-like interior. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg2dQsyQKxs

This thread has 20 pages! Sorry to be dim, but could you please provide a link and context for this comment.

He was a member of this Board and I remember David Drinkell mentioning him, which led to some further searching here. If you do a site search for 'Edmonstone' that will provide from one of his posts the direct link to his Profile. His comments in both places include some reminiscences he shared with David Drinkell and details of some of the organs he worked on.

Organrecitals.com was owned and designed by Steve Smith, and its technical adviser was Stephen Walmsley, a member and regular contributor to this board. For me, in my retirement years it supplied details of venues as far apart as Exeter and Edinburgh, and introduced me to the town hall organs of the Midlands and the North (Roffensis and John Robinson will be pleased to note) as well as many distant cathedrals around the country which I could not have possibly visited in my working years. Nor would I have otherwise known about special events like the inauguration of the Kenneth Tickell organ at Manchester Cathedral - a place I had not been to for more than 60 years! I’m not sure whether they are still available, but Steve Smith also wrote valuable and authoritative articles, notably about St Paul’s Cathedral organ; also Westminster and Southwark (Anglican) Cathedrals, correcting some popular misconceptions about both. Steve Smith also has a major role in the Atlantic City Convention Hall (Boardwalk) organ - a founder member and president of its preservation society, I believe, and has written a substantial book about it.

Sad news today. Steve Smith has announced the closing of organrecitals.com and his own retirement. This has been an invaluable platform for both recital promoters and organ enthusiasts and concertgoers alike. Our thanks to Steve for the past 20 years, and best wishes for his retirement. http://www.organrecitals.com/thatsall.php

Let’s forget the word “offend”! I can understand both viewpoints. I would be very upset if we lost our cathedral organ - it has happened elsewhere - but I remember at the time of the last rebuild (£400,000 an absolute bargain at the time, this was last century), the vicar of the church where I played said disapprovingly “Fancy spending all that money. It sounds just the same”. Well, he was wrong of course, H&H went a long way to restoring the instrument to its original glory, reversing a number of earlier changes made in the fashion of the day. I guess this is a scenario which has happened in many other places, may I suggest in a whisper even Canterbury and York!

Thank you. I have to say that I was slightly offended by Peter’s dismissal of “all the "historical" stuff been said is just talk” and David’s apparent agreement in the first line of his next post. There’s very much wrong at present, not just in the organ world, by people ignoring history, law and particularly charity law. An example from nearby, totally unrelated to organs: a certain City Council was bequeathed land as public open space. Decades later, someone there thought this would make a good (income producing?) car park. The scheme ground to a halt when the relevant authority (not sure if it was the Charity Commission at that time), or possibly the court, unequivocally said this was a breach of the charitable trust and illegal. I am not for one moment suggesting that the Charterhouse situation is any way analogous; just pointing out that careful research intended to be helpful should not be lightly dismissed. A pedantic point. Giles Gilbert Scott, was the very prolific architect, his works ranging from Liverpool Anglican Cathedral to the familiar GPO telephone kiosk. Gilbert Scott, actually George Gilbert Scott, was his grandfather. In between was John Oldrid Scott, maybe others. Between them their churches and other buildings are found in the length and breadth of the British Isles and overseas.

I assume that as a school chapel Charterhouse is outside the ambit of the C of E faculty system and the ‘jurisdiction’ of the DOA. Presumably the local planning authority’s involvement was due to its being a listed building? I would not have thought that the tonal structure of an instrument could be a planning issue. In the faculty scenario that would require expert evidence to satisfy the Chancellor to permit a change on those grounds alone - but this isn’t a faculty situation, and so no comfort to the supporters of the H&H organ.