John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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Whilst not strictly 100% on topic,is fun!
Absolutely nowhere near 100% on topic, but would this solve the UK's littering problem?
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The 32ft pipes at Leeds TH have always been heavily painted, and at the last re-build, the colour was taken back to what it was originally.
Cast iron sounds terribly difficult to work, but apparently it is easier to work than sheet steel if it soft enough and ductile enough. I wonder if they copied Mr Hill's machine?
RAH......I should have recalled that fact about the 32ft front. It's just that they look dull, and could easily be plain-metal if we didn't know better.
Is that still the only one?
MM
PS: It is very unlikely that the 32ft pipes at Leeds were galvanised. The process has been around over 150 years, and the patent was 1937, but galvanising involves pickling, heating up the zinc and then hot dipping. Cast iron, even in sheet form, is pretty good at resisting anything beyond surface corrosion, as many old bridges demonstrate along the canals and railways.
Yes, Porthead, I too had forgotten about the RAH. How could I?!
Back to Leeds TH. I'd heard that cast iron can develop surface rust, then deteriorate no further. I suppose it would depend on how thick these pipes are. Presumably they are painted on the outside only, and have a rusty coating on the inside! I must prefer the present/original colour, by the way; I understand that prior to that they were a horrible greenish colour (?)
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What does the forum consider the best wind pressure on which to voice the vuvuzela?
8 - 10 inches.
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The other interesting thing which came to minbd, were the rival 32ft pipes elsewhere. Am I wrong in thinking that the 32ft front at St.George's Hall, Liverpool, is copper witb black decoration?
The other remarkable 32ft front was that made of cast-iron at Leeds Town Hall.
Finally, did a British organ-buiilder EVER make a tin 32ft front for domestic use?
That is perhaps the most striking thing about the Bavo-orgel, but at least we have the satisfaction of knowing that the tin was mined and smelted in Cornwall, and hasn't crumbled since.
MM
(Sorry for snipping!)
A very interesting question. I've a feeling that we'd be very lucky to find a 32' pipe in tin: it would cost a bomb. Pipe metal, perhaps?
Another question. Were the Leeds cast iron pipes treated (galvanised? could they do that in the mid-19th century?) to prevent rust, or just painted?
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Thank you for the responses.
It would have been a shame if the joins on the 32' pipes had been smoothed off as we should have lost a fascinating glimpse into the technology of the early nineteenth century and how the available skills and machinery were used for a quite different purpose to that originally intended.
I wonder how many visitors to the South Transept actually notice those pipes? When I was there about 90% of people just wandered about randomly pointing their mobile phone cameras into the middle distance without appearing to take in any of the splendour around them.
I've just listened again to a few tracks on the CD and the microphone placement really shows JSW's technique to the best advantage. With every note audible even in the fast passages the tiniest slip would have stood out like a sore thumb or 2, 3, 4, 5...
I don't know how they can possibly miss them! In the north aisle are the 32' Open Woods, which are even bigger - wider, at least, if not as long. Perhaps not quite as big as those at Liverpool but, then, you can't actually see them. I always find it very impressive to stand right next to them and would probably find it even more so if they were being played at the time. Then again, due to the vagaries of acoustics, I may probably not even hear them that close!
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I also have this CD - it's an unusual and interesting take on the instrument. Personally, I don't like the sound, BUT found it very interesting to learn where all the 'crispness' is going when you're in the nave and it sounds like its playing 10 miles away (straight up the tower)!!!
The current organ at York is really designed to face East, and if it wasn't for the Tuba Mirabilis, would be a bit of a flop for big nave services. What would work miracles would be a big glass or perspex screen to be put across the base of the tower itself, at nave roof height, which would direct more of the sound westwards. But I can't see it, really! For the quire though, its superb. The Bombarde en Chamade is a fun and very well used stop, by JSW at least. It points, logically with the name, horizontally towards the high alter on the north side of the screen (behind the curtain). It is really interesting to hear from the nave, as the acoustic in effect means you hear it '2nd hand' after its travelled to the east window and back down, past the organ case, and it goes on forever after lifting off. Amazing to hear, actually.
T
I think it has been generally agreed that the only solution to this problem would be to build a nave division. Hill added one, of course (though I don't think that was playable with the main organ - it was an entirely separate instrument) but, for some reason, it was sold off to a church in Manchester I believe. I think the people at York would very much like a nave division (Robert Sharpe would know, of course), but money is in short supply at the moment!
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By some coincidence, I yesterday spent a few hours in York, largely at the premises of Principal Pipe Organs talking about the progress of the new organ for the Guild Chapel, Stratford-upon-Avon. After a very pleasant couple of hours in the company of Mr Coffin I made the pilgrimage to the Minster, without any hope of hearing the organ. That was fulfilled, then...
I did, though, have a good look around and noticed that the 32' Open Diapason pipes on the south side looked almost as if they had been constructed by welding together a stack of dustbins and then painting them in a sort of limestone colour to fit in with the fabric of the Minster. I've seen a few similar ranks over the years but have never seen one constructed in a similar way. Does anyone know the history of them? Is this a normal method of making 32' pipes but in most cases the welds being filed down to make the job look better?
While there I bought a discounted Priory CD of organ lollipops recorded by JSW a few years ago. I listened to it earlier today and thought that the organ sounded quite different to other times that I'd heard it, either live or recorded. It was a lot brighter with the Big T being much less prominent than one might expect. On reading the admittedly sparse sleeve notes it turned out that the recording was made with the main (or only?) microphone placed (suspended) over the case. I rather liked the sound - has anyone else here heard the disc and have a comment?
To the best of my knowledge the 32' Open Diapason pipes were made in 1829 (some of the oldest pipes in the organ). I'm no engineer, but perhaps in those days it was not possible to produce plate metal above a certain size. Incidentally, does anyone know what metal these pipes are made of?
I have a copy of the CD you refer to, and agree that the Tuba Mirabilis is most definitely toned down for the reasons you mention. Strangely, though, the new Bombarde - which faces East - seems much more prominent on the CD. Personally, whilst the resulting sounds are interesting in comparison, I much prefer the 'conventional' microphone positions: after all, the organ was presumably voiced to sound best to the East and West, rather than up the central tower!
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Not sure if we've had it already (what a long thread), but this is exciting.
I don't know whether anyone else noticed, but there is a small 'football' icon under the picture. I pressed it and found, to my disgust, what sounded like a 'vuvuzela' chorus playing over the music!
I'll be so glad when this world cup nonsense is over for another four years!
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Hi
Keyboards for micro-tonal instruments have been aroung for at least a century! The reed organ museum at Saltaire has a couple of organs with reeds tuned to give microtones - one is now playable - the "keyboard" has, IIRC, 7 levels of finger-sized levers, each laid out in conventional pattern, but controlling reeds of slightly differing pitches on each level. I understand that some music was written especially for it, although the primary purpose was to demonstrate various temperaments.
Every Blessing
Tony
I have a photo of each which I'd be pleased to post on here, but I don't know how. I could e-mail them to someone if they have the means.
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Sorry that this is after the event, not before, but last evening Dr Francis Jackson (why isn't he "Sir"?) played at St Peter's, Stoke-on-Trent. How on earth does he do it? At the end of the programme he played Naiades and Carillon de Westminster, not a note out of place using 92 year old hands and feet. Legend is an overused word but this man surely is.
I certainly think he ought to be. I think KBE or even GCBE would be appropriate.
The cynic in me wonders whether he doesn't 'move in the right circles'!
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And they do in Germany, as anyone who was on the IAO Congress in Cologne will know. The suggestion we should be in the cathedral an hour before the recital started in order to be sure of a seat sounded far-fetched, but was pretty accurate.
Exactly what I found. My (long suffering) wife and I did, indeed, arrive at least an hour early to find the cathedral already quite full. By the time the recital was due to start, people were sitting in the aisles either on camper chairs they had brought or even on the floor!
Why does this not happen here? Perhaps it is just a matter of a different culture - or a lack of it! 'Dumbing down'?
What can we do about it? Education?
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Will the CD only include the tracks included on the CD released by the BBC at the time? It would be a shame if DGW's Stockholm Eben Moto Ostinato (among others) wasn't to find its way onto disc.
Bazuin
I can't be sure about this. According to the Priory News I received, "The package also includes a free CD of Dame Gillian playing some of the music from the organs recorded above, but in different performances". It does sound like the earlier CD from the BBC, but who can say?
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It isn't in the Priory on-line catalogue yet.
Malcolm
It's in the Summer 2010 Priory News that came through my door yesterday.
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It was in 1989, I believe, that Gillian Weir's TV series of the above name was broadcast. At that time I made a VHS recording of all six programmes which, although of deplorable quality, I enjoy watching from time to time. For over twenty years I have been hoping that the BBC would repeat-broadcast the programmes so that I could make a better quality DVD recording but, alas, they did as one would expect and never showed them again.
Now, however, Priory have come to my rescue! They are to release a remastered DVD of the series (with 'free' CD) along the lines of, and at the same price as, their other organ DVDs, and due for release about the same time as the St Paul's DVD.
Thanks, Priory for having the foresight the BBC lack!
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I hope I haven't missed something here but, as you use a laptop, have you considered using the touch-pad (either hand)? Your hand/fingers would be in a different position to that when you are using a mouse.
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I concur with what MM says about Leeds Town Hall organ. I used to attend every Tuesday lunchtime recital when I lived on the 'correct' side of the Pennines.
At first sight, one might imagine the 'new' Positive organ would have some difficulty in emerging from the rather small grille behind which it hides, but in practice it speaks quite clearly and audibly and, as MM says, blends well with the other divisions. Whatever the provenance of the pipes, it sounded quite beautiful to me.
The one reservation I have with this organ is that the 32' Open Metal (cast iron, I believe), which looks very imposing in the hall, seemed to be inaudible whenever I went to hear it, at least where I was sitting. Strangely, the 32' stopped Sub Bass sounded more effective.
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It's Brecon Cathedral – possibly with added reverb!
Did you notice the continuity slip-up? When the Doctor and Amy are walking down the nave and we're looking west - no TARDIS. When they're running back and we're looking east there it is, right in the centre of the nave.
Gary Cole
Ah, but I believe the 'chameleon circuit' was probably working intermittently. It may have temporarily disguised itself as a pillar or, possibly, a double open wood!
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Not sure about your maths, but here's mine ..........
Christ Church Oxford (from the Builders themselves)
Positif
8 Montre (61)
8 Bourdon (61)
4 Prestant (61)
4 Flute a Fuseau (61)
2 Cor de Chamois (61)
1-1/3 Larigot (61)
II Sesquialtera (12.17) (122)
IV Cymbale (22.26.29.33) (244)
8 Cromorne (61)
- Tremulant
- Swell to Positive 13 ranks of 61 pipes = 793 pipes
Grande Orgue
16 Bourdon (61)
8 Montre (61)
8 Flute a Cheminee (61)
4 Prestant (61)
4 Flute Conique (61)
2 Doublette (61)
V Cornet (Mid C) (185)
VI Fourniture (19.22.26.29.33.36) (366)
IV Cymbale (26.29.33.36) (244)
8 Trompette (61)
4 Clairon (61)
- Swell to Grande Orgue
- Positive to Grande Orgue
- Bombarde to Grande Orgue 18 ranks of 61 pipes = 1098 pipes + cornet (185 pipes) = 1283 pipes
Swell
8 Salicional (61)
8 Céleste (FF) (56)
8 Flute Bouchée (61)
4 Octave (61)
4 Flute (61)
2-2/3 Nasard (61)
2 Quarte de Nasard (61)
1-3/5 Tierce (61)
IV Plein Jeu (15.19.22.26) (244)
16 Cor Anglais (61)
8 Vox Humaine (61)
- Tremulant 13 ranks of 61 pipes = 793 pipes = Celeste(56 pipes) = 849 pipes
Bombarde
16 Bombarde (61)
8 Trompette (61)
4 Clairon (61) 3 ranks of 61 pipes = 183 pipes
Pedal
16 Montre (32)
16 Soubasse (32)
8 Flute de Pédale (32)
8 Bourdon (32)
4 Basse de Chorale (32)
V Fourniture (22.26.29.33.36) (160)
16 Basson (32)
8 Trompette (32)
4 Clairon (32)
- Positive to Pedal
- Grande Orgue to Pedal
- Swell to Pedal 13 ranks of 32 pipes = 416 pipes
This gives us a grand total of 3524 pipes, which is what I said earlier, not to be too pendantic or anything............
BTW almost all of the case pipes do speak anyway.
But don't the upper ends of the reeds often consist of two or more ranks of flues, especially the 4 foots? This could add a few more to the total!
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Finding pipes
A very tenuous connection to the purpose of this thread, perhaps, but I found a pipe one day, quite a long time ago. Open wood, about a foot long in a very poor state of repair - obviously dumped by someone. It was lying at the edge of a car park behind the railings surrounding a telephone exchange, so I suspect it may have come from there.
I thought nothing more of it at the time, but this thread reminded me of it.
I'm trying to think of some reason why a telephone exchange would use an organ pipe. To generate a steady tone for some reason?
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I spoke to Peter Wood about the organ at St.Mary’s, Bradford, but he had no re-collection of it from the time that Wood, Wordswoth & Co., re-built the instrument from Cleckheaton, which surprised me. Unfortunately, all the records of the company went up in smoke in a fire, and the firm went pop possibly at the same time, but I don’t actually know when. However, I have one clue, which sticks in my mind from a very long time ago, when I was shown around the inside of the organ at Leeds Town Hall, by Peter Wood, just after the re-build in the early 70’s. For some strange reason, I recall being informed that the 32ft reed was from St.Mary’s, Bradford, even though the organ always had a 32ft reed. Whether or not this is true is immaterial, because it would place the date to pre-1972 when the Anneessens organ at St.Mary’s was removed. (Was the original Gray & Davison 32ft reed ineffective at Leeds Town Hall?)
MM
I have, somewhere, a small booklet published round about the time that the Leeds Town Hall organ was rebuilt. I seem to remember reading in it that the new 32' reed was indeed sourced from St Mary's. It also states that the previous 32' reed was replaced due to its being an ineffective free reed.
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Buy a Midi->USB interface off ebay for approximately £2.50. Plug the connector marked MIDI IN into the hole marked MIDI OUT and vice versa, and the USB into the computer. That's it! What you do with it now, then, is over to you... Lots of software possibilities that can do all sorts of things with your piano.
Thanks!
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Well, I can connect one of the pianos to a computer - the Yamaha C5 (2) has a midi interface... But I've never done it. The Bluthner grand (1) doesn't have a computer connection (I guess such things hadn't been thought about in 1896 Leipzig) but shares the room with my PC, which has a noisy fan. Hence the driving up the wall.
Thanks to Malcolm for his illuminating comments on Hauptwerk from real-life experience.
(1) That's a piano.
(2) That's an electronic substitute!
Seriously, though, I have a Clavinova that has a midi interface, but I have never understood how to connect it to my computer. Now you've mentioned it, I must try to find time to discover how to do this.
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I also remember seeing something similar, and I have to say, I am a little puzzled as to why.
Obviously this is the Mander forum, supported by them, and they can of course make whatever stipulations they wish. I also accept the fact that we should respect their wishes. However, I cannot help thinking that the availability of "Home practise organs," which is what this discussion is about, by increasing the oportunities to practise, and making it more convenient, may help some organists to maintain, and even increase, their interest, and improve their skills, for the real thing. It is, after all, in a section designated for "General Discussion."
Is it not possible that, by bringing a 'classical organ' into the home, some young offspring's curiosity may be awakened, and eventually set them on the road to becoming a church organist?
Surely this is not a bad thing, either for the future of the organ, or the organ builders. There are many threats to the pipe organs in our churches, all of which board members are only too well aware, but in some places at least, a lack of people with the skills to play them must be a strong contributary factor.
Realistically, only a tiny few, very fortunate, organists are going to have the means to afford, or accomodate, a pipe organ at home, even a small one, and certainly not one in the Mander league, so I am a little puzzled as to how an occasional discussion like this could be harming Manders, or their business.
Now if we were recommending replacing the pipe organs in churches with toasters, then that would be well out of order, but from what I have seen, the members on this board are firmly against that idea, so no worries there. Most of the debate seems to be based around a genuine desire, on the part of commited pipe organists, to improve their practise facilities and hence, presumably, their playing skills. Stopping a discussion like this is not going to drive all toasters out of existence, or prevent those determined to replace their pipe organ with one, from doing so.
Of course, Manders may have reasons for seeing things differently, in which case, hopefully, they will explain them to us. Until then, I for one, am finding this discussion both interesting and informative.
In my opinion, toasters are ideal for home practice for two reasons: they are small and can be easily moved; and headphones can be used to avoid waking the neighbours (or wife!).
I would never advocate the installation of electrophones in churches or concert halls. If I go to an organ recital, it is to hear an organ. If people go to listen to a symphony orchestra, do they expect to hear electronically amplified violins, or a piano recital on a Clavinova?
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Urgh! No! The fans on my computer drive me up the wall if I'm practising the piano. And they're not quite a rumble a fraction above bottom G either!
You connect your piano to your computer?!
Well, I can connect one of the pianos to a computer - the Yamaha C5 (2) has a midi interface... But I've never done it.
Vuvuzela Chorus
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
You're really on form MM!