Pierre Lauwers

It is rather simple: when I visited british organs in the 70's and beginning 80's, I had my attention drawned upon the fact the II was the basis of the chorus by the organists themselves who made me see and ear the instruments. It was customary, at least then: "draw the II, not the I". The I was too big for the Diapason chorus, it was made for other purposes. An exception was Worcester Cathedral: there, the whole tonal structure was based upon the leathered I; as a result, this organ "came from another world" in the british scene. Pierre

They can be used as -very beautiful- Solo stops, or in combination with the II and the III; then, the result resembles to the Cavaillé-Coll "4 jeux de fond" (i.e. Montre, Flûte harmonique, Viole de Gambe and Bourdon), or be drawn in louder combinations with reeds and Mixtures. Those stops were obviously from Hope-Jones origin, like the reed voicing peculiar to Arthur Harrison (Tromba). Pierre

The Harrison organs I met had their Diapason chorus based on the Open Diapason II. The "one" had leathered lips, and wasn't intended for chorus use.

" it is interesting to see how far one can push the boundaries - and what ostensibly bizarre registrations actually work in this acoustcally arid building. In fact, I have found that the most satisfying registration for Bach's Chorale Prelude on Aus tiefer Not, is the full choruses of Pedal, G.O. and Swell, with the Swell Sub Octave and Octave, and all unison couplers (except those for the Positive), with the upper pedal part played by a colleague on the Positive with Gedeckt, Principal (4ft.), Cymbal (29-33-36), Crumhorn and the Chamade - in octaves. I have yet to hear a convincing version played by one person with the double pedal part played as written. Whatever registration is used I find this method unsatisfactory. Either the lower pedal part is too prominent (or lacking in gravitas), or the upper part is not prominent enough. Even a divided pedal board would not necessarily solve the problem, since it would require the combination system to act also upon the point of division - which would change a number of times during the chorale - and therefore be programmed on several general pistons, in order to take account of these alterations." (Quote) (I would like to ear that!) Here, you exercise the creativity of the player -something quite welcomed for a teacher, who will pass this passion to his pupils-, whose duty is to try to get more out of an instrument that what its builder imagined possible; Mr Mander himself explained it some years ago about his organ at St-Ignatius NY. But this is no reason to deliver an organ that would limit itself to gather a stock of tones, up to the player to "DIY" with them; there must obtain a structure, a "tonal architecture" as Audsley wrote it. The extreme reverse is to be find in the neo-baroque period, when Lawrence Phelps wrote the player just had to come in, draw the prescribed stops for the work Z and play the notes, period; the builder had to arrange that the result was the same everywhere. In Belgium the specifications had commenced to be the same everywhere as well (8-4-2-Mixtur, Bourdon 8- Prestant 4'-Flûte 4'- Nasard- Quarte-Tierce- Cymbale-Cromorne); the standardization was well underway when the reaction arrived towards the 1990's. Today I tend to believe both sides need to be creative: the player, as you explain it with your example, and the builder, who must deliver a beherschbares, a "controlable", understandable instrument which provides guidelines from itself to help the player, and whose voicing may be beautifully made because the voicer knew exactly the place of each stop in the tonal structure. You cannot, for example, "put" an octave coupler on a Schnitger (original) stop with its "Mixed scaling", because the result will be a soup of whatever compared with the "normal" sound; such stops are made to fit in a dedicate, vertical structure, not extended compasses. Actually, the octave couplers were, stricto Sensu, a step towards the unification of the organ.

"To answer another contributor: my instrument (as he already knows) is neither Romantic, post-Romantic or even neo-Romantic. If pressed, I should perhaps describe it is English enightened neo-Classical/eclectic..." (Quote) -Néo-classique. - if such a definition exists (since it hardly 'defines' anything....) However, the octave couplers which it has I find very useful for all sorts of things. To give just one example, if we are performing canticles by Boyce, the Swell 4ft. Flute, Sub Octave, Unison Off and Octave give a pleasant 8ft. and 2ft. flute-toned registration, which contrasts pleasantly with the Positive Gedeckt (8ft.) and Blockflute (2ft.), or the Positive Chimney Flute (4ft.) and Sifflute (1ft.) - this latter played down an octave - or the G.O. Quintatön (16ft.) and Harmonic Flute (4ft.) - played up an octave. The Swell registration is of course all the more useful since it is under expression and can be matched closely to the dynamic level of the choir. (Quote) Of course, we speak here about detail registrations; there, anyone who is ready to spent time will find quite interesting things, no doubt. But if we aim at good results with such couplers in ensemble registrations (Diapason choruses, reed choruses, Full Swell), the octave couplers need to be borne in mind from the blank page of the designer. Pierre

"Am I correct in thinking that certain American (Post-) romantic builders such as Skinner routinely provided 73 pipe ranks and soundboards to ensure that the octave coupler didn't run out of notes in the top octave?" (Quote) Not some builders, but a majority of them in that period -see above-. Pierre

"Has there been a major technological breakthrough that enables these couplers to work efficiently with mechanical action?" (Quote) Save if someone invents the perpetual move -something that could save the planet, as energy would be granted for free with zero-emissions- the laws of the physic obtains, so that if we want sub and/or super-octave couplers on a tracker action, we will have to limit even more the already lacking foundation tone in modern organs. Or, indeed, resort to electric couplers, a non-sense aimed at playing "we say this organ is a tracker one"... Now if we agreed upon an electro-pneumatic action, the real name of the game will appear, that is, the technologic breaktrough which gave those couplers their musical value: lower halving rates in the scales progression towards the treble, in order to avoid to have matches as pipes in the last octave of the extended chest (that is, the 73 notes compass that goes with such couplers in good post-romantic organs). That way we end up with stops that display slightly different characters between the bass and the treble, like.....With "mixed scalings" in northern german baroque organs (and others!), while the use of the octave coupler won't end up with screamings (from the matches). So the stops are designed, and voiced, according to the presence of those couplers. Same thing with the mixtures; should we want a neo-Schnitgeresque Mixture of, say, 8 ranks, with an actual compass of 73 notes, we shall have 8, 9 or 10 breaks, and shall end up with the Glockenspiel which is discussed on another thread here. So the Mixtures should have less ranks and the lowest possible number of breaks, while at the same time they must be designed to avoid high pitches (which will be cared for by the octave coupler). That way, it will be avoided to get an obscure soup of high-pitched noises. An example is given by Maurice Delmotte of Belgium who, in his electro-pneumatic organs from the 1930's, never went higher than 1' at C: "Fourniture 3 rangs: 2'- 1 1/3'- 1' ", which means we had only two breaks to finish with 2' as the highest rank in the treble -already a challenge with 73 notes-. This " 1' ceiling " I met also elsewhere in this kind of organs. Besides this, it is the complete specifications design which is modified with such couplers; for example, Delmotte often dropped the 16-8-4 reed chorus on the Swell organ, building all reed stops there at 8' pitch.. He spared two stops -expansive ones- for the price of one octave of treble (flue!) pipes, and could offer something else more for the same price. I hope everyone will understand what I mean here: octave couplers and sub-octave couplers (with the possible exception of the Swell to Great in 16', already present in many romantic organs) go with a dedicate organ style, that is, the post-romantic (sometimes called "late-romantic", an expression I disagree with) one; if we want to use them in a modern organ today, its design and specifications should be firmly rooted in that style, without any attempt to "be able to do justice to earlier repertoire"....An old tune already! Pierre

"there is no particular reason why an instrument of this size could not have both types of compound stop; perhaps as an alternative to adding yet another big solo reed...." (Quote) This is indeed common sense, but we may understand the matter from another viewpoint. The guy who has a Cadillac 1958 might sometimes dream to drive a Porsche 911, but even with 10,000 hours of tuning you won't get something like that out of the Caddy; same for as characterfull an organ as that one. You won't compete with Alkmaar, Waltershausen, Poitiers,etc, whatever number of neo-baroque high-pitched mixture ranks and "french" reeds (a true joke that one, as we will see below) you might pile from the bottom to the top of the cases, and even over the roofs of them. It will still not be a place to compete in "clarity of the polyphonic textures", to speak like the neo-baroque belgian tribe of the 1980's. But listen to that video again ! We on the french forum were surprised with those incredible chorus reeds -something no big Solo Tuba will never surpass, agreed-, and how french their colors are. This was obtained with other means than Cavaillé-Coll's, no doubt (higher wind pressures, loadings in the bass etc), but the result lends to think that if you british really wanted to have something competitive in the french romantic repertoire, this one could do the job better as any copy you may dream of. And for Vierne, where would be the problem with deeply-pitched tierce and septième Mixtures -whose roots lie somewhere between Weingarten and Notre-Dame, typical with Post-romantic organ designs- ? Go back, again, to the Video, at 6'; you hear there a reed used like an Hautbois, but that would be the grand Trumpet anywhere else, perfectly matched to its acoustic surrounds to the point it makes sing the stones ("elle fait chanter la pierre"); the acoustic sings litterally with, and the magic appears. This is a common trait with all successfull organs, whatever style they belong to. A "keeper" also. And you know how stubborn a flemish historian can be !

Na ja, unn' wat bedeitet ? Peter

....Which is no proof that it was "wrong". Pierre

"If the Bach at Nôtre-Dame CD is that with Philippe Léfébvre playing, I have it and I think that it is good. The CD was recorded before the organ was 'restored' (and, unfortunately, altered) so, although the sound is a little rough in places, the instrument still sounds superb as far as I am concerned. Personally I like the way Pierre Cochereau played Bach - I get rather bored with the 'I am going to use the Great chorus, one stop of each pitch, with the Pedal flue work up to Mixture; and I shall add the Pedal Fagotto to help provide definition' approach - particularly when two or three preludes and fugues are then played on this same registration, with little diference in treatment throughout." (Quote) Yes, Pcnd, And the next step is.....Liverpool Cathedral put in order, that is, rebuild to its pre WW I design -with the Septième ranks-. Notre-Dame concept brought 100 Miles further. Pierre

Excellent ! thanks ! Pierre Update 11 A.M.: a belgian organist on the french forum, where I placed this link, wrote: "I wish I were 82 years older. I would have heard georgous things, and would have *finished* today".

Belgian humor from Argentina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9LXg3dehkQ (The author is necessarily from belgian origins, and should be presented the belgian passport) Pierre

"The R/C pedalboard has in the grand scheme of things never been more than a curiosity." (Quote) This may seem somewhat overdreven, exaggerated, isn't it ? The "Repertoire" might still follow, besides what already exists from British-speaking areas. I would certainly suggest an R/C Pedalboard in a new organ; the fact that it is virtually unknown on the continent does not mean it is "wrong"! Pierre

I too would find it a big loss for this board should Cynic resign. BUT... We should never forget the owner of this Board is an organ-builder, an active member of the organ world also. I myself am responsible for the biggest french-speaking organ forum, and mind you, I pay a lawyer each month to help with its administration; moreover, I share the moderation with no less than 8 (eight!) friends, total 9 people active about 1 hour per day each, plus a lawyer as a consultant... And I am not even an organ-builder, with co-workers who need to earn a living! Be sure our hosts are sometimes feeling unconfortable with this Board, so let us help them with at least a hint of diplomacy. An alternative for some awkward subjects could be the opening of another forum. This is a five minutes job (....But more later!). About the digital organs: I too forbade discussions about them on my Forum. There are enough places on the Web where they can be discussed. Pierre

We just learned today that the Norman & Beard organ of St-Andrew, Witehall park, is currently being refurbished and re-erected in the chapel of the Lycée (College)St-Vincent of Rennes, Brittanny. See here for details about this organ: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N16963 And here is a new page about it on the St-Vincent Website: http://orguesaintvincent.musicblog.fr/1172...vers-la-Manche/ This is excellent news both for the musical life in Brittany and for the british Heritage. Pierre

Thanks for that one ! It is very good, and reminds me of the good times in Britain in the 70's. Here is an interesting page about this organ, which would probably not have survived in Britain: http://www.organfocus.com/members/r_trant/..._magdalene.php3 Among the videos of the same poster, there is even the cherry and the Chantilly for the cake: another old recording (1965) with Rhapsody N° 1 from Herbert Howells, played by the guy the piece was dedicated to ! And it is really, really good: Enough to have had a good day indeed! Pierre

Like a Flute, of course, no more like a Dulciana... Pierre

Another "Bach organ" featured on Youtube ! The Herbst organ of Lahm/Itzgrund was built 1728-1732. Since 10 yers then (1718-1773), the titular was Johann Lorenz Bach, a nephew -and pupil!- of J-S Bach. It is said the uncle was involved in the specifications.....Which includes not ony a 32' Posaune, but also a Grossquintbass 10 2/3' ! Both are illustrated here -please use your Hi-Fi system, otherwise the Posaune will strike-: (And yes, another one crammed with tierces). Pierre

The design of the Great organ (Hauptwerk) mixture is tipically thuringian, and is nearly the same as in the Kohler organ of Suhl. The 4/5' tierce rank repeats in 3 1/5', avoiding the 1 3/5' thus. This one is in the Sesquialtera (here with only one rank, the tierce). This means that if you do not draw that Sesquialtera, you have a divided clavier! Should you find that strange, be sure of one thing: Bach played such "bizarre" choruses, at home in his very area.... Here is the specifications of the Kohler Mixture in Suhl: HPTW Mixtur 6r: C 1'- 4/5'- 2/3'- 1/2'- 1/3'- 1/4' c 2'- 1 1/3'- 1'- 4/5'- 2/3'- 1/2' c' 4'- 3 1/5'- 2 2/3'- 2'- 1 1/3'- 1' (Only two breaks, no 1 3/5', but there is a Sesquialtera 2r) OW Mixtur 4r C 1'- 2/3'- 1/2'- 1/4' c 2'- 1 1/3'- 1'- 1/2' c1 4'- 2 2/3'- 2'- 1' tThe Trost organ has nearly the same design on the HPTW) The 3 1/5' rank is quite common in central german baroque organs, in the HPTW mixture. I found one in the Fux organ of Fürstenfeld, the Trosts all have them, the Casparini organ of Vilnius has it... Joachim Wagner is an exception, but this one was also influenced by the northern school (Wagner had a tierce rank in his Scharf; 4/5' repeating in 1 3/5'. But he made no Sesquialtera). Pierre

The Trost organ of Grossengottern -I do not think this one was on the Web yet- with Bach by G. Weinberger (BWV 566) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOlXki61y-Q This is true thuringian sounds, ladies and gentlemen! Pierre

Dear Friedrich, By the way -apologies for the off topic- I just read very interesting comments from you about Willis on a german forum. It might be very interesting if you could open a new thread about it here, starting with those comments. Best wishes, Pierre

There are too much variables at play to allow for "this equals that" shortcuts. Let us take the Arthur Harrison Tromba for example, as it is one of the preffered chorus reed stop on this board ( ). The darkness of its tone is due to a combination of heavy wind, tick tongues, nearly closed shallots, and "harmonic" bodies, i.e., double lenght. But the actual scales of those stops are narrower than those of many french and belgian organs of the same period (or earlier, say 1870-1900), whose tone is considerably "freer". Pierre

The question of reed pipes scaling is a complex one, as there obtains more freedom there than with flue pipes. The bodies are there only for the tone, the relation note/lenght is only secondary (you can build half-lenght, quarter-lenght or even shorter bodies, for Regals like Vox humana etc). The same is true with the diameters. There are several referencies, for example Dom Bédos. This book is one of the most important we have, written by a professionnal involved with practical matters. So he gives us data and facts. But those are only an example, what was done in the second half of the 18th century in southern France. This is NOT the organ for Couperin and de Grigny, whose reeds were actually different. The Dom Bédos scales had at least as much influence on the late baroque german organ as on the french one, and even on Eberhard Friedrich Walcker. A later reference was Töpfer, who gave a simpler way, with linear scalings. He had not much influence on the german romantic organ, but more later, during the 20th century, because his formulaes were practical for industrial pipe-building (standardization). The first edition of his main book is on-line for free here: http://books.google.be/books?id=HCUWAAAAYA...;q=&f=false After having downloaded the file, go to page 143 (169 for Adobe Acrobat). If the link does not work, go to Google books and enter as search words: "Die Orgel: Zweck und Beschaffenheit ihrer Theile, Gesetze ihrer Construction ... Johann Gottlob Töpfer"

Ok, this is true. But only for one organ ! Pierre