sbarber49
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Posts posted by sbarber49
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Does the man not have ears to hear? I hope he didn't charge for the advice.
Well, I'm playing the first movement of the Elgar sonata in a concert next month and I'm going to use the Large Open for that! It does sound right.
I haven't yet played any Bach with it yet - even the end of a Fugue.
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I think you've answered your own question. I'm sure you wouldn't use a Harrison Open 1 in Baroque music, because it would sound completely out of place; in other words, you know the sound it makes and have rejected it for that purpose. As with all things musical, the answer is to listen and use what sounds right. It may not be according to someone's pet theory, and your decision may not be the same as mine, but there is no other way of deciding which stops to use with which in given circumstances - as you suggest, it isn't an exact science. And that, to my mind, is half the joy of music; in the final analysis your ideas may be different to mine, but so long as the result is musical, there is, or should be, room for both.
Regards to all
John
I wonder how Harrisons, in 1917, expected the build up to go. At what stage would the Large Open have been added. When Mark Venning from Harrisons came to hear the organ he gently castigated me for eschewing it until I had added everything else, including the swell octave coupler. He said that I should play it the way Arthur Harrison intended it to be played. (ie USE it!)
I know what organists in the '70s did, Pierre (that was when I was growing up), but that is a different era.
Another question: were any organs built before, say, 1850, or have any in the last 25 years or so, where the principal chorus is not based on the main 8' diapason/principal (or 16')?
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On paper, it smacks slightly - and don't ask me to elaborate, because I don't believe I could - of the sort of thing you'd expect to be a product of the 70s or early 80s, missing only a Sifflote 1 and a 2' pedal reed.
There's an audio sample from a box organ on this page. Very chiffy.
http://www.skrabl.co.uk/boxorgan.htm
Though there are more here, of course:
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So if a chorus says "it is based on a certain 8' stop" it means that the higher pitched pipes of the same family of stops are designed relate to that stop to form a homogenous chorus, as the organ builder envisaged and designed it.
Thanks for all that. Obviously I do understand, vaguely, the principle behind it. You have confirmed for me that it is indeed a cut and dried matter.
Mind you, surely the organ builders, at least for a good part of the last century in this country, didn't expect their organs to be played in this way. Wouldn't organists have been more inclined to build up the chorus by adding 8s then 4' etc. Even in Bach.
I have hacked my way through a good lot of Bach in various cathedrals (playing for a visiting choir) and I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily expect to be able to just use one 8' stop. (Although I would do so for preference if I thought the sound was right.)
Wasn't it a story about William Harris (I think): about to embark on a piece of Bach he pulled on all the 8 foots, paused and then saying "ah, baroque" added a 4 foot?
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They can be used as -very beautiful- Solo stops, or in combination
with the II and the III; then, the result resembles to the Cavaillé-Coll
"4 jeux de fond" (i.e. Montre, Flûte harmonique, Viole de Gambe and Bourdon),
or be drawn in louder combinations with reeds and Mixtures.
Those stops were obviously from Hope-Jones origin, like the reed voicing
peculiar to Arthur Harrison (Tromba).
Pierre
I occasionally use it as a solo stop in hymns, usually tenor register, but "beautiful"? - I think not!
Nor do I use it for a C-C Jeux de fond: I tend to use the small open, Hohl Flute and Stopped Diapason coupled to the swell open. Sometimes omitting the Hohl Flute. The big open is just TOO big (not to mention foghorn-like.)
I do sometimes use it as part of the Full Organ in English music (normally with full swell and octave)
However my question is: how do you know which stop(s) a chorus is based on: can it a matter of judgement/taste? Is there room for a difference of opinion? After all, 2 organists might not use the same 8' stop as the basis for a baroque chorus - it might be 2 stops, indeed. Or it might be the 16 foot. Does it only apply to a Baroque chorus? I use different foundation stops for different types of sound.
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Hi
Good quality radio mics are far from cheap - around £300+. The cheap ones often sold in music shops, etc. have a very limited range (I have one that won't even work reliably in a 100 seat room).
If there's any sort of line of sight to the conductor from near the organ console, then a cheap camcorder + TV will work. (Most camcorders will work as cameras if there's no tape inserted).
Every Blessing
Tony
It's the hearing rather than the seeing. I was thinking of doing some of Bédard's Duet Suite for organ and piano, which is a great piece if you like Bédard (which I do, in moderation). The organ and piano are some distance apart, so I wouldn't attempt to do it unless I could hear the piano. The quality of the sound doesn't matter - just being able to hear enough to co-ordinate. (No sight line on this occasion.)
I just wondered if a Baby Monitor would pick up enough sound. There is also the advantage that I would be able to hear what people were saying when they thought I wasn't listening!
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The Harrison organs I met had their Diapason chorus
based on the Open Diapason II. The "one" had leathered
lips, and wasn't intended for chorus use.
What are they intended for? If not chorus use then presumably as solo stops?
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As I understand it, and I am more than willing to be corrected if others know better than I do, to state that a chorus is 'based on' a particular stop means that the chorus on that manual is understood to use the stop in question as the 8' rank supporting the upperwork, 4' and above.
On a typical British Organ of the 19th century, it would normally be the Open 8' (or one of them on Great Organs, which one depending on the tonal ideas of the builder), but in late 20th century instruments built on neo-classical lines it may be a Stopped Diapason or some other 8' flute of suitable design.
Hope this helps.
Regards to all
John
Yes, but how do you know? I play a fine Harrison from 1917. I wouldn't dream of using the large Open Diapason as a basis for a baroque chorus (in fact very rarely use it at all) but might Arthur Harrison have considered the chorus to based on it? I'm wondering if it's an exact science - it always seems to be stated as an incontrovertible fact, rather than an opinion, that the chorus of such and such an organ is based on, for example, the small open or the 16 foot.
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Since I'm at home with a cold:
I've wanted to ask this for years, but was embarrassed to show my ignorance. Getting too old now to worry!
There are often references to the chorus on a manual being "based on" a certain stop. Does this involve a subjective judgement or is there a technical definition.
Sorry about spelling of topic title. I don't know how to edit this.
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Apologies if this has been discussed before.
Has anyone any experience of wireless microphone and speaker for portable and instant use. The purpose would be to relay the sound of a choir to the organist in those situations where co-ordination is difficult.
I once used a pair of walkie-talkies in Amiens cathedral for the Vierne mass and they worked brilliantly - except that one of the sopranos had to hang it round her neck and when she stopped singing it cut out! Has anyone tried a baby monitor? Or any other suggestions that do not involve cables or vast expense?
I should have put this in the "General" section but don't know how to move it.
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How about this. (Mind you I'm sure it must have been on before - if so, apologies.)
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I am going to Paris for 3 days in half term. I will be there on Sunday, 1st November - All Saints' Day.
I am not bothered about going up to an organ loft and I don't want (with my wife in tow!) to rush around Paris on Sunday morning trying to hear as many organs as possible. Just one service.
So where should I go? I want good organ playing - spectacular if possible. Good singing would be a bonus (but in Paris? Even now?), though I would be very happy with some congregational plainsong.
I was thinking of trying Notre Dame but was told by someone who went recently that, though the organ was good, the vocal side was "a girl singing into a microphone".
Is there a website where I could find out if there are any recitals?
By the way, I have much enjoyed the Notre Dame CD recommended on another topic - love the antiphonal plainsong and grand organ played by Cochereau. But I'd forgotten just how bad the singing used to be - how could they put this on a CD as representing Notre Dame's liturgy?
Stephen Barber
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Stephen,
It is also possible to buy them directly from Solstice. The link is below. I must recommend PC's last recording, the improvisations on The Gospel According to Matthew. They are so moving, especially bearing in mind that PC's own was so close...
http://www.solstice-music.com/caddie/catalogue.php?
I found them to offer very quick delivery; more so than some UK-based companies.
P
Thanks, En Chamade, I've ordered the CD.
Thanks also, Handsoff or P (sorry, I don't actually know who anyone is - one or two exceptions) I will also look at the Solstice site. Bach at Notre-Dame?? What does it sound like? I have seen a youtube video of Vierne and I used to have an old LP of Cochereau playing the Toccata in C and, presumably, other things, but seem to remember that is was fairly grotesque. I remember now, there was Valet will ich.... in D - very slow.
Stephen
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Splendid indeed.
I bought the CDs of these services, on the advice of pcnd5584, and rarely get through the week without playing some of them. There is a wonderful improvisation at the end of Colin Mawby's "Alleluya" on the same disc as the Te Deum which rounds off a compilation CD I put together for the car. It does turn heads on the few occasions I have the car windows open...
I have to have these CDs. What are they called and where can I find them? (I'm sure it's been on this board a few times already - if so apologies.)
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You need top F# for the Widor toccato so 56 is a minimum for any church :-)
Contrabombarde
Is that the famous Toccata in F sharp?
Ah just realised we're talking about manuals, not pedals!
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As far as I know, it's out of print indeed.
Making a scan isn't illegal than, is it?
Dick
Yes, it is. Unless the composer has been dead for 70 years it is. Or is it for "private study"?
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I've done a quick internet search.
Chappells will be shut.
Foyles open 11-8.
Most of the smaller shops are likely to be shut I reckon. Chimes don't open on Sundays so I doubt they'll be open tomorrow.
No answer at Chimes this morning so I think I'll practise this morning and go down for the Prom later.
Thanks for the help - I'd have ended up looking at computers on the Tottenham Court Road!
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Will they be open on Bank Holiday Monday/
Good point! Anyone know?
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The other place I tries was Chappell's on the recommendation of an earlier contributor and was pleasantly surprised by how much they had in, and not all duplicates of what I found in Foyles.
I'm in London tomorrow so checking on shops for organ and choral music. Has anyone anything to add to what has already been said. How do the Chimes shops compare to each other? Are they worth visiting for organ music? How do they and Chappells compare? (I did Foyles earlier in the month.)
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Talking of which, wouldn't it be fun to have a go on a real carillon ! ! !
I once entertained the citizens of Mechelin (I think it was) with a performance of the Neighbours theme tune on the carillon. My biggest audience ever!
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If it's illegal to play from a photocopy, how can it be proper to take a fee for work not done?
I don't quite follow this logic.
If it is the church organist's prerogative to play for weddings then of course he gets the fee. And why shouldn't he/she have that right?
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I'm not so sure....I heard somewhere that the great JSB knew a good 32' reed when he played one!
Contrabombarde
On the Oberwerk?
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That is, if money genuinely was no object and the brief was to build the largest organ possible that was still musical, what "luxuries" might I be tempted to add? For me I'd say a 32 foot flue on the Great and a 32 foot reed on the Swell.
Finally, I can heartily recommend the 64 and 128 foot "self destruct" digital stop on the Hammerwood organ, of course it's absolutely over the top nonsense from any musical or harmonic point of view but is enormous fun nonetheless (so long as you promise to only use it for the last note of your encore)!
Contrabombarde
I'm sure if Bach had had a 32' reed on the Swell and a 64' on the pedal he'd have used them - not!
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Has anyone here done Gounod's St Cecilia Mass with organ accompaniment (as arranged by Gounod himself, possibly as a ploy to renew the copyright). If so, does it work well? Does anyone know where I can find the version for reduced orchestra that was also apparently published at one stage?
PM me if you have any advice as this is on the periphery of an organ forum. Apologies for that!
Stephen Barber
Lyme Regis
in General discussion
Posted
No. I'd like a 2' flute somewhere. I must say.