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Another Challenge For Those With Too Much Time On Their Hands Or Those Who Like To Do This Despite Being Too Busy


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Tony

 

Maybe you could stow away with the harmoniums (harmonia???)

 

R. :blink:

 

Hi

 

I could probably cadge a lift if Phil has room - but there's still the cost of concert tickets - and the fact that we'd be back rather late, and I have a service to take Sunday morning.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Well having started this thread, and as yet not having said what I would do, here goes:

 

2 manuals & pedals

Compass: Manuals: 56 notes (c1-g56); Pedals: 30 notes (c1-f30)

9 (10) stops; 6 (7) ranks; 310 (366) pipes

 

 

Manual I (56 notes: c1-g56: 2 (3) stops: 2 (3) ranks: 112 (168) pipes)

 

1. Stopped Diapason 8’ (spotted metal, capped)

2. Nason Flute 4’ (stopped wood)

Flageolet 2’ (spotted metal (Optional))

i. Manual II-Manual I

 

 

Manual II (56 notes: c1-g56: 4 stops: 3 ranks: 156 pipes)

 

3. Stopped Diapason 8’ (mechanical borrowing from Manual I)

4. Gamba 8’ (spotted metal)

5. Prestant 4’ (spotted metal)

6. Cromorne (tenor C) 8’ (spotted metal (1/4 length))

ii. Tremulant (to whole organ)

 

 

Pedal Organ (30 notes: c1-f30: 3 stops: 1 rank: 42 pipes)

 

7. Subbass 16’ (wood, stopped)

8. Bass Flute 8’ (mechanical extension from 16’)

9. Prestant 4’ (mechanical borrowing from Manual II)

iii. Manual I – Pedal

iv. Manual II – Pedal

 

Awaiting comments!

 

Jonathan

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Interesting concept. As you ask for comments, I'd say this:

 

-I'd try to have at least one Open Diapason, even if there could

be possibly some stopped pipes in the bass;

 

-A Cromorne in a house organ ? This could be a bit crude. Why not

an Hautboy after Samuel Green ? (I do not even suggest a free reed

in order to stay within a coherent style).

 

Pierre

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I like this scheme, but why omit the bottom octave of the Cromorne? I can envisage lots of situations where I would want this.

 

As Pierre suggested - make it a Samuel Green type Oboe - take it down to full compass and duplicate it on the Pedals as well. Add an Open Diapason too - if needs be the bass could be stopped plus 'helpers'. There could then be alternate 8' on each manual along with the common Stopped Diap.

 

AJJ

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The Nason Flute is an english baroque stop (17th century), stopped wood pipes,

low mouths.

It gives a somewhat pronounced Quint.

We may suppose, therefore, the name came from the french "Nasard" (flutey Twelfth).

 

Pierre

 

Absolutely right, apart possibly from your supposition. They're very much from the Father Smith tradition.

 

So what are they doing on many modern English organs today? All modern English organ builders - Manders, Ken Tickell, H&H, Nicholsons - seem to feel bounded to include a Nason Flute at 4' pitch somewhere on their new organs - usually above something completely unrelated in nomenclature, like a Rohr Gedeckt or Chimney Flute.

 

I guess they're just a fashion, like the good old Koppel Flute of the 1970s and 80s... (in fact I think I've seen a recent organ with both a Koppel Flute and a Nason Flute - they must be spoilt for choice there!! The organist must ask himself whether to play in 1970s mode with the Koppel Flute or 2000s/1660s mode with the Nason Flute!). But is this invariable mixture of flute names from different traditions and periods symptomatic of rather hotch-potch thinking in the flute department? I wonder what the purpose and thought (if any) is behind these Nason Flutes?

 

Or is it just a prefix in case a lone "Flute, 4" doesn't look exciting enough on paper?

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I guess they're just a fashion, like the good old Koppel Flute of the 1970s and 80s... (in fact I think I've seen a recent organ with both a Koppel Flute and a Nason Flute - they must be spoilt for choice there!! The organist must ask himself whether to play in 1970s mode with the Koppel Flute or 2000s/1660s mode with the Nason Flute!). But is this invariable mixture of flute names from different traditions and periods symptomatic of rather hotch-potch thinking in the flute department? I wonder what the purpose and thought (if any) is behind these Nason Flutes?

 

You could make the same argument about Open Diapason, Principal, etc.

 

To answer some of the comments to my Specification. The reason for not including an Open Diapason even with a stopped bass is space, what I have designed is feasible in our house, adding an Open Diapason would add too much space in my opinion. I chose a Cromorne because I like them, I take the point about an Oboe, although I would want it enclosed, and this organ wouldn't have an enclosed division. I like Cromornes, and the challenge of something in a house organ would be interesting. The bass octave may be useful, but I envisage the stop essentially as a solo stop and probably wouldn't use the bottom octave! Any, my thougts.

 

Jonathan

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It does not look like a fashion for me.

We must see such as stop as a kind of Quintatön, so it adds

two ranks in one in the tonal structure.

The Nason Flute is usually a 4', so it provides us with a hint of 1 1/3'.

Besides this, there are plenty of uses possible for any wood 4' Flute.

(Now if you prefer a Zauberflöte instead, no problem....This one a kind

of harmonic....Quintatön!)

 

Pierre

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Or is it just a prefix in case a lone "Flute, 4" doesn't look exciting enough on paper?

 

This reminds me of an occasion 10 years ago when one of "my" organs was being rebuilt. One of the tonal additions to this otherwise comprehensive instrument was a 4' Flute on the Swell, which the instrument sorely missed. The organ builders had a spare 4' Harmonic Flute rank which they were cutting down to normal length (despite my trying to persuade them otherwise!) and were installing on the Swell soundboard in place of an 8' Gedeckt which was going elsewhere.

 

They hadn't installed the rank, but needed to decide on the name to be engraved on the stop knob. They came out with several fanciful suggestions but, as I hadn't heard the rank, I refused to give it a "silly" name! In the end, they reluctantly accepted my suggested name. With every bit of imagination I could muster, I named it........"Flute 4"!

 

And, after they had to revoice it a second time (I wasn't happy with it the way they first presented it), it turned out to be a lovely register - almost worthy of a fanciful name!

 

Talking about fanciful names, Willis IV gave all the (equally lovely) flutes and mutations on the Positif division he installed on this instrument their own names - Zart Flote, Wald Flote etc, - no Nazards or Tierces for him!

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You could make the same argument about Open Diapason, Principal, etc.

Ah yes! That fashion, which seems to have been going strong in England since the 1610s... except possibly for a period between 1950 and 1980... Some fashions never seem to die out! Pesky things!

 

It does not look like a fashion for me.

We must see such as stop as a kind of Quintatön, so it adds

two ranks in one in the tonal structure.

The Nason Flute is usually a 4', so it provides us with a hint of 1 1/3'.

Besides this, there are plenty of uses possible for any wood 4' Flute.

(Now if you prefer a Zauberflöte instead, no problem....This one a kind

of harmonic....Quintatön!)

 

Pierre

 

Laudable, and interesting but I really can't say that I've detected anything approaching a Quintatoen in any of the Nason Flutes I've played on modern English organs. My point is that it's just become a name these days for a generic, usually stopped, 4' flute.

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Oh Yes! Those Father Smith connotations with "Nason" are far too tempting to pass over...

 

This reminds me of an occasion 10 years ago when one of "my" organs was being rebuilt. One of the tonal additions to this otherwise comprehensive instrument was a 4' Flute on the Swell, which the instrument sorely missed. The organ builders had a spare 4' Harmonic Flute rank which they were cutting down to normal length (despite my trying to persuade them otherwise!) and were installing on the Swell soundboard in place of an 8' Gedeckt which was going elsewhere.

 

They hadn't installed the rank, but needed to decide on the name to be engraved on the stop knob. They came out with several fanciful suggestions but, as I hadn't heard the rank, I refused to give it a "silly" name! In the end, they reluctantly accepted my suggested name. With every bit of imagination I could muster, I named it........"Flute 4"!

 

And, after they had to revoice it a second time (I wasn't happy with it the way they first presented it), it turned out to be a lovely register - almost worthy of a fanciful name!

 

Talking about fanciful names, Willis IV gave all the (equally lovely) flutes and mutations on the Positif division he installed on this instrument their own names - Zart Flote, Wald Flote etc, - no Nazards or Tierces for him!

Ha ha! Good man! I like "Flute 4"!

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Isn't that the sort of thing Allen do, give every stop of a particular type the same name, regardless of pitch?

 

Jonathan

A quick glance at the back page of a random edition of C&O gives the following flutes on a sample Allen:

 

Swell

Harmonic Flute

Concert Flute

(topped by a Nazard, Piccolo and Tierce - how interesting!)

 

Great

16' Lieblich flute ( apparently it's enclosed in the swell box but doesn't appear on the swell organ...)

8' Stopped Diapason

4' Harmonic flute

 

Choir

8' Claribel flute

4' Lieblichgedeckt

2' Flageolet

1 1/3 Quintflote (with an umlaut over the o)

 

So, overall, an interesting assortment... all for £19,950. What a bargain!

 

But yes, you're right about Willis with his families of Lieblich Gedeckts, Harmonic Flutes, Claribel Flutes clustered on the same manual at different pitches. Another rather fine builder that took the same approach was T.C.Lewis - the organ at Southwark Cathedral is a famous example. So Allen would have been in good company if they had taken the approach you suggested...

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A quick glance at the back page of a random edition of C&O gives the following flutes on a sample Allen:

 

Swell

Harmonic Flute

Concert Flute

(topped by a Nazard, Piccolo and Tierce - how interesting!)

 

Great

16' Lieblich flute ( apparently it's enclosed in the swell box but doesn't appear on the swell organ...)

8' Stopped Diapason

4' Harmonic flute

 

Choir

8' Claribel flute

4' Lieblichgedeckt

2' Flageolet

1 1/3 Quintflote (with an umlaut over the o)

 

So, overall, an interesting assortment... all for £19,950. What a bargain!

 

But yes, you're right about Willis with his families of Lieblich Gedeckts, Harmonic Flutes, Claribel Flutes clustered on the same manual at different pitches. Another rather fine builder that took the same approach was T.C.Lewis - the organ at Southwark Cathedral is a famous example. So Allen would have been in good company if they had taken the approach you suggested...

 

Willis and Lewis were succesful in producing stops of differing character even if of similar/same name, I'm not sure some of our electronic organ builders are quite as succesful at it!

 

Jonathan

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Interesting comment. Willis was renowned for standardising the construction, scaling and tonal preparation of his stops. Go to Reading Town Hall and compare the flutes of similar names there - they're all almost identical tonally, as well as the Swell Oboe and Solo Orchestral Oboe!

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Guest Cynic
Interesting comment. Willis was renowned for standardising the construction, scaling and tonal preparation of his stops. Go to Reading Town Hall and compare the flutes of similar names there - they're all almost identical tonally, as well as the Swell Oboe and Solo Orchestral Oboe!

 

That's why they blend.

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I think the sort of half-pull/full pull stops are quite exciting whether or not they actually save space. Anyone have any idea whether this would work?

 

Swell [enclosed]

 

Oboe 8'

Echo cornet III [full pull] Flageolet 2' [half pull]

Principal 4'

Echo Dulciana 8' [tc]

Chimney flute 8'

 

Great

 

Sesquialtera III [full pull] Fifteenth 2' [half pull]

Nason flute 4'

Principal 4'

Stopped diapason 8'

Open diapason 8'

 

Pedal

 

Double diapason 16' (stopped)

Open diapason 8' [by communication from Great]

Principal 4' [ditto]

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Guest Patrick Coleman
I think the sort of half-pull/full pull stops are quite exciting whether or not they actually save space. Anyone have any idea whether this would work?

 

Please excuse my ignorance: does one of these stops mean you can have either of the associated ranks but not both?

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Please excuse my ignorance: does one of these stops mean you can have either of the associated ranks but not both?

 

The way I understand it, half pull draws one of the ranks of the compound stop. In this case the fifteenth which runs through the composition of the III-rank sesquialtera 12- 15- 17 and the cornet which is the same.

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The way I understand it, half pull draws one of the ranks of the compound stop. In this case the fifteenth which runs through the composition of the III-rank sesquialtera 12- 15- 17 and the cornet which is the same.

 

 

just realised that the cornet could not be carried below tc, so the 2' flageolet would not work.

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