In Dulci Jubilo BWV 608

[innate]

I never attempted this before this week in >45 years of playing the organ. Is it just me or is it unusually tricky? Unusual patterns in the triplets; the twos-against-threes in one hand; the high pedal part. My only relief is that I’m not playing it from Bach’s original with lh and pedal on one stave. Are the top F#s in the pedal unique in this era and geographic area (a little like the low B in BWV 572)? And are there any generally accepted ideas for registration? Something sparkly across manuals and pedal or should the pedal stand out, say a reed against a light, bright flue 8,4,2 in the manuals?

[sjf1967]

The whole question of what the pedal should play is very much open to individual interpretation  - there's no autograph and the only two copies (Preller and Kittel, both quite a bit later than the date of composition suggested by the idiom of the piece) make no stipulation about what they play (although they are needed unless some chords are respaced in places). The earlier, shorter 729a is similarly unspecific (here the chorale is figured, not written out). The NBA has no pedal indication at all, the BG just (con Ped.), on who knows what authority. New Breitkopf suggests pedal for the first two chorale phrases, and then not until b39 to end. The 3-stave notation we're now familiar with is I suspect very much a development of the Novello editions. So a range of solutions is certainly acceptable. One possible system is just to use the pedal where you really need to, where the tune appears in fuller harmonised textures. Registration - possibly plenum, or a smaller chorus, but I've heard it done very beautifully on a single 8 principal.

[innate]

14 minutes ago, sjf1967 said:

The whole question of what the pedal should play is very much open to individual interpretation  - there's no autograph and the only two copies (Preller and Kittel, both quite a bit later than the date of composition suggested by the idiom of the piece) make no stipulation about what they play (although they are needed unless some chords are respaced in places). The earlier, shorter 729a is similarly unspecific (here the chorale is figured, not written out). The NBA has no pedal indication at all, the BG just (con Ped.), on who knows what authority. New Breitkopf suggests pedal for the first two chorale phrases, and then not until b39 to end. The 3-stave notation we're now familiar with is I suspect very much a development of the Novello editions. So a range of solutions is certainly acceptable. One possible system is just to use the pedal where you really need to, where the tune appears in fuller harmonised textures. Registration - possibly plenum, or a smaller chorus, but I've heard it done very beautifully on a single 8 principal.

Are you talking about BWV 608 or BWV 729? I was talking about the Orgelbuchlein one, which is in Bach’s hand, I think. Wikipedia says that the pedal part was intended to be played an octave lower than written on a 4' stop, which would make the notation more of a representation of the sound than instructions to the player.

[sjf1967]

ah, sorry, yes! 729. 608 is a tricky number for sure.

[pwhodges]

6 hours ago, innate said:

Wikipedia says that the pedal part was intended to be played an octave lower than written on a 4' stop, which would make the notation more of a representation of the sound than instructions to the player.

That is taken straight from Peter Williams - who suggests the same treatment for BWV 600.

Paul

[SlowOrg]

A recording/video of the BWV 608 has been published today as part of the Dutch "All of Bach" project:

https://youtu.be/zrde4WqFNYg?feature=shared

Laurens de Man plays the Silbermann organ in Freiberg; he appears to be using Flutes 8, 4 and 1 from the Oberwerk and the 4 ft reed from the pedal division.

[innate]

1 hour ago, SlowOrg said:

A recording/video of the BWV 608 has been published today as part of the Dutch "All of Bach" project:

https://youtu.be/zrde4WqFNYg?feature=shared

Laurens de Man plays the Silbermann organ in Freiberg; he appears to be using Flutes 8, 4 and 1 from the Oberwerk and the 4 ft reed from the pedal division.

I played it for a wedding this morning not having listened to this. Manuals on Gt principals 4' and 2' and pedal played an octave lower than written on a 2' reed. It sounded rather good 🙂

[Martin Cooke]

50 + years ago, I would have loved that 1 ft. There were three of theses that I came across in my youth and couldn't tire of. Maurice Eglinton built a small (but quite exciting at the time) extension organ in the church at Trevone, near Padstow in Cornwall, in about 1970. This had one, and actually, now I remember, so did the Nicholson at St Michael's, Newquay, along with its None, 8/9. And when Daniels rebuilt and reduced the three manual HW III at my school they popped one on to the Swell. I find this one rather shrill. 

But, goodness, innate, where's this 2ft pedal reed? Not many of those to the pound - well, not around rural Wiltshire! 

[innate]

2 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

50 + years ago, I would have loved that 1 ft. There were three of theses that I came across in my youth and couldn't tire of. Maurice Eglinton built a small (but quite exciting at the time) extension organ in the church at Trevone, near Padstow in Cornwall, in about 1970. This had one, and actually, now I remember, so did the Nicholson at St Michael's, Newquay, along with its None, 8/9. And when Daniels rebuilt and reduced the three manual HW III at my school they popped one on to the Swell. I find this one rather shrill. 

But, goodness, innate, where's this 2ft pedal reed? Not many of those to the pound - well, not around rural Wiltshire! 

I’m rather nervous of admitting that this is a “punched card” voice on an Allen computer organ. Ages ago I made a personal vow that I wouldn’t take a position at a church that didn‘t have a functioning pipe organ but somehow I’ve been DoM at a church which has only had an Allen for the last c.40 years. To be honest there is a 3-stop Peter Collins box organ that is used for concerts and I have used it a couple of times for Tudor Choral Evensongs but I wouldn’t dare use it to accompany hymns at our Sunday morning service. The good news is that we are well on the way to a complete reordering of the whole site which will include the renovation of the church and a new pipe organ in the historic West End case. I can say with confidence that the new organ won’t have a 2' reed and as I was playing the Bach yesterday I did have a moment of regret that  my elegant solution wouldn’t be possible on it. But everything else will be better! In fact I’m now wondering if the Pedal mixture might work here on its own!

[innate]

2 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

50 + years ago, I would have loved that 1 ft. There were three of theses that I came across in my youth and couldn't tire of. Maurice Eglinton built a small (but quite exciting at the time) extension organ in the church at Trevone, near Padstow in Cornwall, in about 1970. This had one, and actually, now I remember, so did the Nicholson at St Michael's, Newquay, along with its None, 8/9.

1' stops—there is one on the enclosed choir of the Nicholson at St Michael’s, Highgate, North London, which I used to enjoy using, particularly in Chorale Preludes. It started out as a Larigot, I think, but the long-serving organist who was involved in the design of the instrument must have eventually thought a 1' more useful. There is to be a two-and-twenty in the Choir of the new organ at Gloucester Cathedral. I like “super gap” registrations, of which 16' + 1' is about as extreme as most organs allow. 

[Colin Pykett]

6 hours ago, innate said:

I’m rather nervous of admitting that this is a “punched card” voice on an Allen computer organ.

Emboldened by innate, I'll submit my own attempt at BWV 608 - on a home-made electronic organ, and demonstrating my imperfect technique to boot.  Registration much the same as discussed by others above - 4 ft pedal reed plus flutes to 1 foot on the manual.  However, to add a bit more interest I used two 4 foot reeds - one already on the pedals, plus another on the swell.  The (simulated) swell box was almost closed and subjected to a tremulant.

http://www.colinpykett.org.uk/InDulciJubilo-BWV608.mp3

I have a recording by Helmut Walcha from the mid-20th century where he played it quite slowly at about minim = 72, rather slower than one usually hears it today,

[innate]

11 minutes ago, Colin Pykett said:

Emboldened by innate, I'll submit my own attempt at BWV 608 - on a home-made electronic organ, and demonstrating my imperfect technique to boot.  Registration much the same as discussed by others above - 4 ft pedal reed plus flutes to 1 foot on the manual.  However, to add a bit more interest I used two 4 foot reeds - one already on the pedals, plus another on the swell.  The (simulated) swell box was almost closed and subjected to a tremulant.

http://www.colinpykett.org.uk/InDulciJubilo-BWV608.mp3

I have a recording by Helmut Walcha from the mid-20th century where he played it quite slowly at about minim = 72, rather slower than one usually hears it today,

Lovely playing, Colin! It’s a funny one because, to my mind, the two chorale melodies should be absolutely equal in prominence but because the rh one is, by necessity, on the same stops as at least some of the triplet figuration parts (one you tube version has the left hand on a different manual) it’s harder to hear the rh melody if the pedal registration balances the manuals.

[Martin Cooke]

58 minutes ago, innate said:

Lovely playing, Colin! It’s a funny one because, to my mind, the two chorale melodies should be absolutely equal in prominence but because the rh one is, by necessity, on the same stops as at least some of the triplet figuration parts (one you tube version has the left hand on a different manual) it’s harder to hear the rh melody if the pedal registration balances the manuals.

Yes, bravo, Colin. You have restored my faith in 1 fts. Indeed, this piece was written for such a stop and I love the tremulant. Again, 50+ years ago, who would have used a tremulant?!

[Hebridean]

Lovely, Dr Pykett!  Perhaps the macaronic text invites responses from a broad range of influences!  

[Colin Pykett]

Thank you for these very kind remarks.  One of the beauties of much music from that era is that it can be played in so many ways in terms of tempi, registration, etc and the expertise of members here is invaluable when they indicate the directions of current scholarship on these matters.

[Colin Pykett]

I was reminded of this thread just now while indulging in my personal Christmas Eve ritual of listening to a thirty-year-old CD by the Taverner Consort, Choir & Players under Andrew Parrott.  It was one of the early cover CDs distributed by the BBC Music Magazine (vol 2, no 4, BBC MM116) in 1993 entitled - you've guessed it - 'Music for Christmas'.  Sixteen exquisite miniatures including no less than three versions of 'In dulci jubilo', two by Praetorius together with a piano solo by Liszt.  And to stretch one's eclecticism to the limits (at least, mine) there are also appearances by Webern, Bruno and Schoenberg.  Flawless performances and wonderful sound quality to boot, enhanced by the acoustic of St Giles, Cripplegate.  I remain as bowled over by it each year as I was when first listening to it all those years ago.

A real gem, complemented on this occasion by a nice single malt.

Merry Christmas to one and all!