pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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Twice recently I have heard tales of local business, one a shop, one a dentist, who have been forced to cease playing classical music by customers threatening to take their business elsewhere if the owner persisted in playing it. THAT is the sort of attitude this country (and, one might add, it's priests) are up against - an attitude that regards classical music as a minority (or even elitist) interest of no importance.
Out of interest, does anyone know what would happen if a similar situation were to occur whilst an organist was practising (legitimately, in pursuit of the fulfillment of his or her duties) in a church which was open to visitors?
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I just got around to listening to this (on headphones). I found the sound of the 32' Bombarde very impressive, especially as it is (I believe) on no more than 4" wind pressure. This just goes to show that high wind pressures are not essential to obtain loudness, even in reeds.
I suppose that the answer is that in order to have loudness along with smoothness (as in English organs compared to those of other European schools), higher pressures are necessary.
And with that, thicker tongues - and weights - mostly either lead or felt loads. Them you have the FHW or Arthur Harrison Ophicleide. (There is not much to choose between either Truro or Crediton with regard to the Pedal ranks of this name.)
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Hi
In dealing with NPOR updates, I've noticed that a number of recent organs have 30 note pedalboards - even under 5 octave manuals (although a number of new tracker organs have g3 or a3 treble compass on the manuals - presumably an exonomy measure?).
The NPOR entry for the new Worcester organ doesn't mention the pedal compass because none of the sources said what it was, and it didn't appear clearly in the pictures I had available when I first did the entry. Looking closely at picture no 2 on the NPOR entry, I can see to f#, so I guess it is a 32 note board.
Every Blessing
Tony
So it does - for some reason, I missed this.
Our instrument here has a 32-note pedal-board; however, either the orientation is slightly incorrect - or perhaps there is a mistake in the measurements* at some point. Either way, it is a most uncomfortable board to play - as many others have noted. In addition, I find that, whilst I do not often make mistakes when playing on other pedal-boards, one has to be very careful on the Minster organ.
* This was the case at Exeter Cathedral, some years ago - although only Harrisons noticed. The board was replaces, as far as I know, free of charge.
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...However I was speaking more recently to another organ builder who said 32 note boards are difficult to get today and extremely expensive. He quoted the story of a customer who was insisting on one and the console supplier (who shall be nameless here) had to specially tool up to make it, including having to re-program his CNC woodworking machinery. I must admit I had not realised this. ...
CEP
This comes as a surprise.
Having looked on the NPOR (and assuming that the information submitted for inclusion in the surveys is accurate), it appears that both Llandaff Cathedral and Saint Edmundsbury Cathedral both possess 32-note pedal-boards. However, Cirencester Parish Church has a 30-note board, as does the organ in Saint David's Cathedral, Pebrokeshire. Worcester Cathedral does not specify, neither can I find the Flickr account of Adrian Lucas, in order to try to see a decent photograph of the console. (Those which I can find, do not show the pedal-board.) However, I note that the claviers are of 61-note compass, so a reasonable supposition is that the pedal compass is of 32 notes. I have sent a text message to a colleague who is due to play there for a service, today, requesting the details of the pedal compass.
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The RSCM used to have one at Addington Palace. I have an idea it was on loan, maybe from one of the London colleges. It was a smart looking beast and quite nice to play.
Interesting - I never noticed this on the occasions when I stayed there. (One of my fellow students was a permanent lodger there, during his college/university course.) I tried most of the instruments - including the little gem in the chapel, but I failed to spot this one.
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Hahaha as these mystery identifications often result...
What did Willis have to say about Skinner's work?
The best source for this is to read The American Classic Organ - A History in Letters, by Charles Callahan. It is published by The Organ Historical Society, Richmond, Va. (1990). The ISBN catalogue number is: 0-913499-05-6 This will give a good idea of exactly what HWIII felt about Skinner's work. In particular, he criticised Skinner's Diapason choruses - or lack of them. Skinner loved the sound of an orchestra and he was passionately fond of orchestral music. He (like some other builders) made the grave error of treating the organ like an orchestra, thus robbing it of the very thing which sets it apart from this medium. By concentrating on producing many sounds, both flue and reed, which attempted to imitate the sounds of orchestral instruments, he neglected the backbone of the instrument. The result was that, whilst a Skinner organ contained several beautiful registers and was perhaps a good accompanimental instrument (albeit after a certain style of accompaniment) his instruments came to be considered rather less useful for the performance of music by Bach and his contemporaries. *
In addition, HWIII was unimpressed by Skinner's chorus reeds. When Skinner first made his acquaintance with 'Willis' reeds (I believe this was with regard to the instrument in Saint George's Hall, Liverpool), he was bowled over by their fiery sound and power. In later years, he confessed that he had once been shown how to obtain this sound (by HWIII), but had forgotten the art.
Since I have only ever heard recordings of 'vintage' Skinner organs, Vox Humana is probably your best source for an appraisal of what these stops (and his original diapason choruses) sound like; for I believe that he has played a few of them, largely in their original tonal conditions.
* Even back as far as 1924, Skinner had requested (and received) from Willis scaling, voicing and other details necessary in order to construct a chorus mixture in the manner of the Grand Chorus (15-19-22-26-29) stop, which HWII had included on the G.O. of his instrument in Westminster Metropolitan Cathedral. Initially, when Skinner had heard this stop in situ, he disliked it - being at that time unable to see the point in a proper chorus and mixture structure; (he was then still equating an organ to an orchestra). However, by 1924, he had come around to the thought that perhaps the sound was something which he should include in his instruments. However, it becomes clear that HWIII also felt that Skinner had not yet got his sub-structure correctly in balance, so that the imposition of a superstructure of a big mixture stop would still result in an unsatisfactory sound. In particular, Willis criticised the voicing (and power ratio) of Skinner's Diapason, Principal and Fifteenth ranks. Willis felt strongly that they were incorrectly balanced - generally being weak, in comparison to those on a Willis organ.
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I suppose it depends to some extent on the composition of the Mixture in relation to that of the Fourniture.
There has been, over the past twenty or so years, a reaction against high-pitched mixtures and in a typical English parish church it is probably best to avoid really high stuff. But in a large building, particularly when the pipes are some distance from the listeners, I think there's a need for a high mixture to top the chorus. The Cimbel at Belfast Cathedral (Harrison c.1968) clinches the presence of the organ in the building and the Swell Mixture has much the same effect in that department.
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The Positive Cymbal (29-33-36) here performs a similar function. When the Positive chorus (including the Cymbal) is added to those of the G.O. and Swell organs, the instrument really comes alive - even in the dry acoustic of our ancient Minster church. As Clutton wrote in The Organ: ... 'and by closing one's eyes one can well imagine oneself hearing a huge baroque west end organ in a great continental church - no mean achievement from this restricted organ chamber.' *
* p.6; The Organ, No. 181: Vol. XLXI (July 1966).
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With respect to the former Cymbal III 29.33.36 on the Vth manual at St Paul's Cathedral. I really don't know why they changed this in 1993/94. The Cymbal imparted an attractive brilliance to the Dome tutti, and it's lowering by an octave to a Mixture 22.26.29 is regrettable. The current mixture composition in the Dome makes no sense to me at all:
Quartane II 19.22
Mixture 22.26.29
Fourniture 19.22.26.29
That simply looks like duplication to me, and I don't understand it. I would have thought a Sesquialtera II 12.17 (or III 12.15.17) would be more useful, with the possibility of a Cornet 'Separe', rather than what we have now. I've always thought that the absence of the Cornet option in the Dome rather strange - the clear fluework is there, and the Diapason II being quite unforced, so why they haven't done this is perplexing to me.
I agree entirely.
I also wonder what the thinking was behind these mixture schemes.
Although the organ of Lincoln Cathedral does not possess a cymbal-type mixture, the last time I played it, I could not help but wonder if the Choir Mixture (ostensibly 22-26-29) had been re-cast as a 15-19-22 Mixture. The stop lacked any kind of brightness or definition at all. I realise that it is around the corner from the console - but so was the former Cimbel (26-29-33) on the Choir Organ of Exeter Cathedral, and this stop gave a beautiful, bright sheen to the Choir chorus. I also think that removing this stop (and re-scaling the Twenty Second as a pointless Larigot) was a grave error. The Clarinet which took its place is on an open soundboard, so is inexpressive and a Larigot could easily be obtained by the use of the Lieblich Bourdon, Nazard and Octaves Alone - with or without the 8ft. and 4ft. Gedeckts.
For that matter, I wonder if Harrisons have taken the opportunity to swap the positions of the Choir and Solo organs in their current re-ordering of the Exeter organ. If not, I would also regard this as a completely wasted opportunity.
I would have suggested that the following was a more sensible arrangement of resources:
SWELL ORGAN
the Stopped Diapason and [Nason] Flute would go to the CHOIR ORGAN; in turn, the CHOIR Lieblich Gedeckt and Lieblich Flute would go to the SWELL ORGAN (where they would be re-united with the mild strings, which were formerly on the CHOIR ORGAN, prior to 1965). The CHOIR ORGAN would also lose its Lieblich Bourdon (which is seldom used; in any case, the lowest twelve notes come from the Pedal Bourdon).
The SWELL ORGAN would lose the Twelfth and gain the Vox Humana from the SOLO ORGAN *
The SOLO ORGAN would lose the Vox Humana (to the SWELL) and the Piccolo (no great loss - it wobbles unpleasantly) and thus be slightly reduced in size. However, the CHOIR ORGAN would gain two slides.
The CHOIR and SOLO organs would swap places.
This would give:
SOLO ORGAN (Now facing East, but with shutters in both directions)
Viole d'Orchestre 8
Viole Céleste (C13) 8
Claribel Flute 8
Harmonic Flute 4
Orchestral Oboe 8
Corno di Bassetto 8
Tremulant
Tuba 8
Trompette Militaire 8*
(*The latter stop to have its 1965 voicing re-instated.)
CHOIR ORGAN (Now facing West)
Stopped Diapason 8
Viola 8 (Slightly re-voiced and broadened)
Prestant 4 (New)
Nason Flute 4
Nazard 2 2/3
Fifteenth 2 (New)
Open Flute 2
Tierce 1 3/5
Twenty Second 1 (Re-instated)
Cimbel (26-29-33) III (Re-instated)
Cremona 8 (New)
Tremulant
Having known this instrument since I was fifteen, I would regard this as a more versatile and sensible scheme than what was actually in place. The Swell flutes are more robust than those on the Choir Organ, so they would make a better foundation for the new chorus. The new Prestant and Fifteenth would help this division to function as a more realistic foil to the G.O. The Cremona, by being a full-blooded specimen would provide a voice which has probably never been present on this instrument. However, it would be English, rather than a French Cromorne - although it would contrast from the superb Willis II Corno di Bassetto on the Solo Organ.
* Clearly the soundboards would require re-planning (which is presumably one of the things which Harrisons have undertaken); one would not want to encounter (or tune) a Vox Humana in the middle of the Swell upper-work.
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Almost, but in fact St David's, the parish church just round the corner from St Michael's Mount Dinham beats the Heavitree instrument by three stops (35), while the Mint Methodist church in Fore Street has two more speaking stops at 34. Mount Dinham will total 48 speaking stops with the new additions to the Clayesmore specification.
I will try to get some information on the pipework for the pedal reed extension and the solo string rank ( a Viola if I remember correctly ) at St Michael's.
I had forgotten Saint David's - with its fascinating Caröe church. However, the Mint Methodist Church (which I have also played for services, was shorn of its Pedal foundation stops when it was stuffed into a small chamber above the end wall. So it sounds smaller to my ears.
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I might have been if the result hadn't sounded like a toneless rattle. Whatever the shortcomings of this organ - and IMNSHO they were insignificant enough to warrant not mucking around with the integrity of the instrument - this half-length extension simply did not fit. And added Octave 4' on the Great is way out of proportion too. There is no doubt that the organ struggles to accompany a packed cathedral but the nave division surely takes care of that. At least, I thought it did so perfectly satisfactorily when I was in this situation. Ideally, of course, one would have a second organ, but I am not sure where one could put it and in any case I suppose one has to be realistic.
Actually, I quite like the 32ft. reed - and do not consider it to be a toneless rattle. There is one note (B, I think), which is not as good as the rest of the stop. However, I regard it as definitely worth having - and far more musical than the Hele 'earthquake' at Winchester.. The 4ft. G.O. Octave (replacing the Dulciana) and moving the Solo Viole Octaviante up and retuning it were both my ideas - made to Paul Morgan years ago. Again, I disagree - to my ears, the G.O. Octave imparts more fullness to the chorus and helps the projection a little. In any case, I never saw anyone use the Dulciana - not even Lucian. The problem with the Nave division (as Paul would corroborate), is that, due to tuning and temperature discrepancies with the main organ, there are often occasions when it cannot be used - unless one does not mind a kind of giant céleste effect.
In fact, the addition of the G.O. Octave is more of a re-instatement since, prior to the 1965 H&H rebuild, the G.O. did possess such a rank - as well as a large Open Diapason (giving a total of three Open Diapason ranks in this department). Also, before 1965, the G.O. actually had fifteen slides - as opposed to the present total of fourteen. Presumably, at the 1965 rebuild, Harrisons decided to place to the new G.O. IV-rank mixture on two slides, making both draw simultaneously.
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So from the photo of the stops it appears the Cornet 1.8.12.15.17 and the Cymbel 22.26.29.33 have at least been put to one side.
In a recent recording of the Minster organ, John Scott Whiteley demonsrates this Cornet stop. Compared to the 'Cornet separe' also available on the Great (possible with the addition of the Sequialtera II 12.17, also added in 1993), I'm not sure if we should lament the loss of this Cornet stop. It sounds quite unexciting and dull to me, compared to the Cornet Separe version, which sounds a great deal clearer and much more useful, particularly for Bach.
Here are the two Cornet sounds, one after the other, commencing from approx 1:10 -
Yes - the same thought had occurred to me.
I think that I would miss the Cymbel, though; particularly since the smaller version on the Choir Organ was removed at the time of the 1993 work. Personally, I regard it as a mistake to remove these stops from larger instruments - particularly those which stand in resonant buildings. The cathedrals at Carlisle, Chester (several compound stops have had ranks removed or silenced), Dublin (Saint Patrick's), Exeter, Lichfield, Saint Paul's (London: Manual V - pitched an octave lower) and York Minster have all lost high mixtures in one form or another. At least three of these have had the Choir cymbal-type mixtures replaced with somewhat pointless 19-22-26 compound stops. Such stops I heartily dislike, partly due to the presence of the uncovered quint and partly because this type of mixture rarely fulfills any useful function. Generally, it neither gives clarity to the bass register nor brilliance to the upper range.
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From a recording perspective, it is also interesting to observe how individual recording engineers may 'capture' the sound of an instrument in different ways. But however good or bad an instrument may be, a good one will always seems to shine through. Admittedly, I have one very good recording of St Sernin, performed by Daniel Chorzempa (Widor 5 & 10, Philips), and that really does sound quite thrilling. But most other recordings seem to fall down in one respect or another - I can't believe it's the fault of the building, but you may never know.
With respect to Exeter, that really is a beautiful instrument, so subtly balanced and a joy to sing with. I toured there in 1982 and I can still recall the lucid, almost delicate fluework. It never struck me that the organ needed a 32' reed - it just didn't seem to need it. I never felt that St Albans needed one either, but it has one now - and I don't like it!
S. Sernin - I believe that the interior of the building (possibly the Nave walls and arcade) had the hard plaster removed a few years ago - which cut down the reverberation period somewhat.
Exeter Cathedral, I agree - except for the 32ft. reed. Having previously had regular lessons on this instrument (from the age of fifteen), and played it on a fair number of occasions for services, I was delighted when the Pedal Trombone was extended downwards. I felt that this was one cathedral organ which desperately needed a 32ft. reed. Certainly listening to several recitals in the summer series some years ago, the absence was sorely felt - particularly with pieces which ended 'half-way up the pedal board' - such as Franck's Troisième Choral. In the rather dry acoustic, the Pedal Organ lacks weight - the Open Diapason (W) is an old FHW stop, and was never subjected to the 'Arthur Harrison treatment'. In fact, I recall being told that Harrisons discovered that the lowest sixteen notes of the Violone (32ft. and 16ft. unit) spoke on around 35mm pressure - which, if actually true, is incredibly low.
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St Michael’s Church, Mount Dinham, Exeter...I was organist here over 30 years ago, when the church possessed a four manual Compton electronic, so it's fantastic to see that Lottery funding and a lot of hard work have brought pipes back to St Michael's 47 years after the original Hill was severely damaged by water. This is the third home for this instrument, and it should sound wonderful in the glorious acoustic of this church.I understand from email conversations with Neil Page that the Pedal reed has been extended to 32' and a string stop added to the Solo organ. Other than the cathedral this will now be the largest instrument in the city by some margin. Some history and a few photos of the installation by Tim Trenchard can be found at the church blog, here -
This is indeed good news (although it does mean that Clayesmore is now stuck with a toaster - largely due to pressure on seating capacity in the chapel).
I taught regularly on this instrument in its former home (Clayesmore School) and thought that it was a reasonably good instrument - and fairly versatile. If skilfully voiced, no doubt the new additions will enhance the instrument. Given the size of Saint. Michael's, Mount Dinham, the 32ft. reed extension would probably not sound out of place. Out of interest, has Tim Trenchard also provided the 32ft. reed bass and the new string rank on the Solo Organ (which is, as far as I can recall, on an open soundboard)? If so, does anyone know if second-hand pipe-work was used (after adaptation, perhaps), or whether it was new? Thank you.
This is indeed a welcome addition to the list of playable pipe organs in this city. Exeter has a large number of comparatively small medieval churches (some constructed of very red sandstone), and a few rather utilitarian structures, which were put up after WWII, to replace those destroyed in the blitz. Virtually all of these churches have quite small instruments - although not all are without either merit or interest. After Mount Dinham, the next largest instrument is also housed in a church dedicated to Saint Michael and All Angels - that at Heavitree.* However, this is smaller by fifteen speaking stops.
*This is on the eastern side of the city centre and falls partly within the parliamentary boundary of the city, so I have included it here.
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I'm not sure if I 'objected' to your epithet 'Romantic', rather I was suggesting perhaps we should not view St Sulpice as 'basically' a Romantic instrument. And as I've suggested, I'm not sure if we can stick any label to this instrument. It is far too complicated for that.
I agree with you on St Ouen entirely. However, I've never really got on with St Sernin - the overall ensemble doesn't seem to gel with me, and I don't like the chamades - they are just too 'blatant' for my taste. I've never heard it 'live' though, only in recordings. And we know how unreliable they can be.
With regard to S. Sernin, it is a matter of regret that I have yet to hear this instrument live. I too have only heard it on a number of recordings. However, I must admit that I have always been bowled over by it. For my taste, it is the perfect Cavaillé-Coll tutti. I do like the chamades - although, having stood directly underneath those at Nôtre-Dame de Paris on a number of occasions, I am not sure exactly how closely they are modelled on those at S. Sernin. However, as you say, recordings can sometimes be notoriously unreliable.*
* However, I would suggest that there are instruments which are clearly recogniseable from recordings and broadcasts - one such is the Harrison instrument in Exeter Cathedral. This beautiful organ has a very distinctive tutti, for one thing. Whether it will sound the same after the present major redesigning is completed, remains to be seen. I would also maintain that I can tell the difference between recordings of the Willis instruments in Salisbury and Truro cathedrals - and not by simply relying on the difference between the acoustic ambiance of each building. Nor, for that matter, on the presence (or absence) of a 32ft. reed, Solo strings or similar ranks. Whether I could do so it Hereford were to be added to the mix, I am not sure, since I am less familiar with this instrument. Again, if the H&H G.O. quint Mixture were to be used, or the Hereford HWIII 32ft. reed, I could probably tell; otherwise, I am not sure.
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I read that these ranks which were added to the Choir in 1935 were removed as they were simply "piggy-backed" off the soundboard to separate chests and were unreliable because of this. More information here: http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/sacred-heart-wimbledon.html
Ah - indeed. I had forgotten about this. I had something in the back of my mind regarding unsteady (or inadequate) wind - but it is the report and examination season at school and I have been slightly distracted of late.
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In a recent recording of the York Minster organ, John Scott Whiteley demonstates the 'Celeste' on the Solo division, originally destined for the FRH organ. Here it is at approx 5:10 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoxakRY3lnw
I'm sure many visiting organists to the RFH would really like a greater variety of resources on the Solo, including this Celeste stop.
Absolutely.
However, as I wrote previously, I regard the original 'Proposed specification' as far more interesting and versatile* than that which is actually there.
* I can see no harm in some eclecticism in a concert instrument.
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It is interesting that Downes included a Septerz II 3 1/5 + 2 2/7 on the pedal. This stop appears on the console with the Pedal reeds, so I am assuming (probably incorrectly) that this compound stop is there to assist the harmonic development of the pedal reeds?
Possibly not, in this case. The Pedal reeds at the RFH have more than enough harmonic development for any taste.
Personally, I should have preferred the Septerz split into its constituent ranks and both made available on the Positive. I am not sure what function this stop would actually perform on this Pedal Organ.
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There is no need to split hairs over terminology. St Sulpice is obviously 'Romantic', but it is also substantially embedded in its 18th century heritage.
I have recorded this instrument 'live' now on several occasions, all with Daniel Roth playing, and it is astonishing. The G.O. reeds, for example, are without parallel - vicious, but exciting at the same time.
Quite honestly, I'm not sure what to call it, or label it. But whatever it is, it is a masterpiece!
I quite like the Orgue de Choeur in Notre Dame by the way. That is a surprisingly effective instrument, of only 30 stops. But each one seems to count for presence and beauty. As an example, this Communion postlude from approx 1:08 is really quite delightful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4loSslesto&index=11&list=FLjznwvXiuRfOGQ80W36Ml2w
For the record, it was you who objected to my epithet 'Romantic' - so it is not I who was chopping bunnies....
However, i agree entirely with your description - I think that this is a wonderful instrument. But then, so it that at Rouen (S. Ouen, not the cathedral) and S. Sernin is fabulous.
The Orgue de Chœur at Nôtre-Dame is indeed, as you state, surprisingly effective - although I did miss the swell box. I once had to play for a choir's lunch-time recital on this instrument, including an improvised solo. I also found it to be reasonably versatile and quite exciting.
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I wouldn't be too worried about the use of the 32' Bombarde at the end of the Adagio. It does contain some 18th century Clicquot pipework, and I have no doubt that JSB himself would have availed himself of these resources, if they had been available at the time!
We should never allow 'straight-jackets' to invade music. Rather, it is more a matter of personal taste. I found Daniel Roth's interpretation on that recording quite superb, and the use of the 32' reed quite appropriate.
Absolutely.
And very exciting, too.
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St Sulpice is not a 'basically Romantic instrument'. Indeed, you almost contradicted yourself here by calling this a 'Cliquot/Cavaille-Coll masterpiece', which of course it is!
Approximately 40% of the pipework in this instrument is Clicquot. When Cavaille-Coll rebuilt this instrument he deliberately preserved the earlier pipework, with very little changes to the character of the 18th century work. He then provided his own additions, being careful that the overall nature of this pipework would not sit uncomfortably with the earlier work. Cavaille-Coll called this a 'merging of the old and new', essentially a synthesis of 18th and 19th Century pipework that is without doubt unequal in its mastery of construction and tonal beauty.
Consequently, a wide corpus of music may be played on this instrument with complete confidence. It is, in my opinion, a vastly superior instrument as that found in Notre Dame de Paris.
When I visited St Sulpice some years ago on a tour of the organ loft, I asked Daniel Roth if he could demonstrate the 18th century pipework of this instrument. The effect was quite stunning - I was listening to an 18th Century classical French organ in all its glory!
Here is some detail of the origins of the pipework, from the St Sulpice website:
http://stsulpice.com/Docs/specs.html
Not the best of recordings, but you may get an idea of some of the Clicquot heritage here:
I would certainly agree that it is now superior to that which stands in the west tribune at Nôtre-Dame.
However, whilst my description of the instrument being basically Romantic may not give the whole picture, you avoid the fact that it has one of the few amphitheatre-type consoles which Cavaillé-Coll provided for his largest instruments, which functions in the same way his large Romantic organs do - that is, with the soundboards divided and the reeds and upper-work controlled by ventils. Then there are the substantial number of ranks by Cavaillé-Coll - which certainly sound Romantic; (I have also been up in the loft and heard it from this vantage-point). Whilst Cavaillé-Coll may have shown rather more respect for the older material than did FHW here on occasion, nevertheless, the entire nucleus of a large Romantic organ, complete with the particular type of console (which partly dictates how one plays this instrument), is present.
In any case, if it is not 'basically Romantic' - what would you call it?. It is not eclectic or Baroque, nor is it neo-Classical. The occasions when I have heard it played, performers (including its renowned Titulaire) have made it sound Romantic, therefore I can see no harm in describing it thus.
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I can see (hear?) why you like this, pcnd5584. From the start, this is never going to be less than an extremely thoughtful account. As to be expected from the scholarly and amenable Maître Roth, it is also meticulously executed. With both Toccata and Fugue, I am in total (listening) sympathy.
I must, however, take issue with the end of the Adagio, which seems too Romantically-conceived for the present day (recording from 2000?). Shades of Thalben-Ball in his heyday ? Fonds d’orgue with Tremulant is the answer, for me.
Moreover, I am sure a more suitable registration could be located on this organ for the melodic filigree.
I can appreciate your point, firstrees - although I confess that I am enough of a Philistine to go all trembly and excited at the build-up from 09:17, to the entry of the 32ft. Bombarde towards the end of the Adagio. I want to jump and shout - and it fair makes my toes clench in my shoes.... Yes, it is a bit Romantic - but Roth only lets his guard - and reserve - slip for 1':31" (including reverberation). And it is S. Sulpice, after all. It would have been a shame to have let that superb 32ft. reed just sit there....
However, in all seriousness, the ending works for me on Roth's recording. No fuss, or apparent truncation - just simple resolution.
Vox - thank you for finding this recording, It had simply not occurred to me to see if anyone had uploaded it to YouTube.
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I've just heard a performance of BWV 564 in which the player continued pleno all the way to the end, and augmented the last chord with a bottom C on the pedals. I thought it worked rather well, and am wondering if there's any justification for it in the sources.
I've found (http://www.analekta.com/en/album/?lagace-bernard-j-s-bach-toccata-adagio-and-fugue-in-c-major-bwv-564-and-other-early-works-vol-2.1263.html) a programme note by Bernard Lagace in which he says "We are accustomed to hearing a conclusion where the different voices gradually dwindle until the end where, with no longer any pedal, descending quavers are discretely punctuated by a final, short chord. I thought it interesting to use here a different version, as is found in one of the work's two sources, where the pedal holds the tonic low C until the last long chord, marked with a fermata", which is rather different to what I heard today.
Can anyone out there provide an authoritative answer?
Ian
I am not sure about that - but I certainly do not like the way this performance ended:
. Aside from the Fugue being too fast for my taste, it just appears to stop - apparently for no other reason than that the performer has run out of printed notes. I much prefer Daniel Roth's interpretation at S. Sulpice - which is, as far as I know, only available on CD. However, I think that it is a superb rendition, and the Cliquot/Cavaillé-Coll masterpiece appears to me to be a perfect instrument for this music. (I have played 'Drop the Laser' with a few organ-minded colleagues, and no-one managed to guess that it was S. Sulpice. When I told them, most were fairly stunned - presumably finding it difficult to believe that this large, basically Romantic instrument could produce these types of sounds.) -
Having never (so far as I can recall) ever played an organ with a 6 1/5 or 4 4/7 stop on the pedal division may I be so naive as to ask what would have made them so useful at RFH (or for that matter on any substantial organ)? And why the Solo 2/2/7 (as opposed to an 8 foot pitch Septième of 1/1/7)?
Contrabombarde
Since the Pedal mutations are in the 32ft. harmonic series (and there was - and is - a Quint 10 2/3ft.), they could, if skillfully voiced, have formed a useful alternative to the Pedal Principal 32ft. The Pedal mutations at Nôtre-Dame de Paris are actually better than the 32ft. flue. However, it should be said that in the dry acoustic of the RFH, the mutations may not have blended enough to be subsumed into 32ft. resultant tone; so perhaps that was why they were not included. (However, this did not prevent Downes from making his fatal miscalculation with regard to the chorus reeds, so who knows?)
I am not sure about why the Septième was specified at 2 2/7ft. pitch, other than the fact that Downes (as part of his research for the RFH commission) visited, amongst other places, Nôtre-Dame de Paris and would probably have heard the example on the Solo Orgue at the same pitch. (However, there was also a Septième on the Grand Chœur at 1 1/7ft. pitch. In fact, the three stops which Downes cited as particular favourites on this instrument were the Positif Cromorne 8ft., the Piccolo 1ft. and the Tuba Magna 16ft., on the Grand Chœur.
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I can confirm the provenance of the Down Cathedral Pedal Trumpet 16', at least insofar as it is general knowledge in Nothern Ireland. It is an assertive rank, although more of a snorter in the loft than in the church. When I did the Great Irish Cathedral Organ Marathon in the early nineties (an organ recital in each of the 31 Cathedrals of the Church of Ireland in the course of a week), I had a couple of friends riding shotgun (going ahead to prepare a place for us). One of them, Sean, was leaning against the Trumpet enclosure when I started the last piece (Scotson Clarke's 'Marche aux Flambeaux' - one sometimes yields to the temptation to be vulgar) and got the shock of his life. 'Wow!', he said, 'Bullfrogs from Hell!!'.
Down is certainly a superb instrument and perfectly suited to the building. If someone said it was the finest organ in Ireland, I wouldn't argue with them.
But which stop was it, David?
As I wrote, there is nothing in the projected scheme of the Solo Organ which fits this rank. Or was it intended for another division on the RFH organ, but, for some reason was rejected, either by Downes or H&H? Downes certainly made no mention of it in his book, nor did he allude to it when I met with him.
New Organ Recital Mailing List
in General discussion
Posted
Some good points, well-made, here, Alastair. (Speaking for myself....)
Which is why there are currently no organ CDs in my car. However, there is Nickelback, Dire Straits, Clapton, Dylan, Bryan Adams, Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson.
I suppose that I should put some Brahms or Schumann in the car as well, sometime....