john carter
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Posts posted by john carter
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Post deleted. Temper tantrum over.
JC
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As Felix happily says to us (!):
"Much depends, in these Sonatas, upon the proper selection of the Organ stops. Every instrument, however, with which I am acquainted has its own peculiar mode of treatment in this respect, and stops of the same name do not always produce the same effect in different organs. I have therefore given only a general indication of the kind of effect to be produced, without adding a list of the particular stops to be used. By fortissimo, I intend the use of Full Organ; by pianissimo, a soft-toned 8ft stop is generally intended; by forte, the Great Organ, without some of the most powerful stops; by piano, some soft-toned 8ft stops in combination, and so forth. In the Pedal, I prefer throughout, even in pianissimo the 8ft and 16ft stops together, except when the contrary is expressly specified (see the 6th Sonata). It is therefore left to the judgment of the organist to combine the different stops appropriately to the style of the various movements. Let him (or she, of course in today's climate of equal opportunity! - N), be careful, however, when employing two manuals that the kind of tone in one should be readily distinguished from that in the other, but without producing too violent a contrast between the two qualities of organ-tone."
Therefore, the sonorities are left to the individual to select. I have always treated the sound of adding the 16ft as one of inducing gravitas to the music and thus producing an all-embracing richesse of sound to the listener in the church (with acoustic). But I rarely find a Romantic/Symphonic instrument doing this in M-B's music as it is so often bottom-heavy in scaling. Baroque-age organs frequently are just right as the basses are light and opaque and the trebles more singing. The musical lines are still completely audible. This is the test for me - "can I hear what the composer has written?", for I sincerely believe that he would not write the notes with such care if they were to be hidden by gunge. The prime difficulty for me is playing polyphonic music on a homophonic instrument. I also came across the fact that many of my students (when I taught) thought of Mendelssohn being synonymous with the High Romantic instruments in the UK and a Tuba completely necessary for Sonata No 3. (read last sentence above
). This movement is not part of Tannhäuser. Best wishes,
Nigel
P.S. A wrinkle. To test the Polyphonic qualities of an organ, I take the main Diapason/Principal of the Gt and play a triad on the bottom C. If it is clear and true, then I am going to be happy and the collaboration fruitful. N
Nigel,
Thanks for the reminder about Mendelssohn's own words, which I have seen before, and your insight into how to interpret them. I see how necessary it is to be confident and adapt one's approach according to the instrument you are using. Your "wrinkle" about assessing the polyphonic qualities is indeed a most interesting and revealing test.
Incidentally, you will be pleased to note that I would never use a Tuba in Sonata No 3, though I might admit to a Trompette Militaire ...
JC
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Dear John Carter
I'd give you simpler advice: If it sounds wrong for the organ you're playing, choose other stops and ignore the 16.8.4 direction.
Time and again composers for the organ recognise this principle and several of them have printed such comments inside their scores.
For you to know that it sounds wrong, it strikes me that you're already doing all the right things!
P.
Thanks for the wise words and re-assuring advice, Paul. As you suggest, every instrument is different, so it's better to trust your ears rather than the printed page.
JC
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Huh, amateurs! I'm feeling a bit silly now.
Having engaged my brain and ears this morning, the problem turned out to be as much with the pedal registration as the manual 16. Having lightened the pedal, it all sounds closer to what I was aiming to achieve. Either Gamba or Salicional coupled suboctave from their respective departments to the GO work well and much better than the GO's own Bourdon 16. Thanks for the link, Pierre. It sounded depressingly familiar and just what I was trying to avoid. Hopefully, I have now found the right balance.
JC
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Running through Mendelssohn's 5th Sonata last night, I had difficulty deciding how to register the opening Andante. The score indicates "mit 16" for the manuals, but every option I tried just sounded muddy to my ears, even using a double string which blends easily in most circumstances. Of the recordings I have, none sounded significantly better. I hate to ignore something clearly indicated in the score, but it just doesn't sound right. Is it just me, or does anyone have the same feeling? How do you register this movement?
JC
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As a former "oily rag", I know my place, so won't enter the argument. However, anything that helps to make the genuine pipe organ more affordable must be worth considering.
VH, I sympathise with you about your car; I know the feeling well. Then I think back to my lovely old Austin 10 and the need to take hot water bottles and rugs when setting off on a winter journey and decide that modern cars do have some advantages.
JC
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You remind me of that oft-circulated "Engineer's report on attending a Symphony orchestra concert": For long sections of the concert the two oboes had nothing to do. All sixteen first violinists were playing identical notes.
In my opinion, the worst things that happened to the pipe organ in Britain were Hope-Jones and John Compton as they put science/engineering before art. Even though an organ contains many mechanical parts its raison d'être is musicmaking, as for other musical instruments.
If the great Cremonese violin-makers were still working today would you deny their traditional craft methods on the grounds that they don't make engineering sense in the C21? Violinists today have a choice of fantastic, very expensive old instruments, more affordable modern ones made in a very similar fashion to the old ones and modern "engineered" things like this. Violinists with artistic integrity wouldn't like to be seen playing Brahms, Beethoven, Sibelius or Britten on the engineered version.
I think your apparent view, that modern science and engineering has nothing to offer "art", is very short sighted and if Downside Abbey is an example of the worst thing ever to happen to the pipe organ in Great Britain, we must be a very fortunate nation indeed.
JC
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Actually it is even more complicated than that
The full name of Queens' College, Cambridge is actually:
"The Queen's College of St Margaret and St Bernard, commonly called Queens' College, in the University of Cambridge."
Which, as the college web site explains, contains both spellings, each of which is correct in its particular context ...
Thank you for the link, Michael. It's more complicated and interesting than I had realised.
JC
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"learnt", surely?
I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave earlier... The pedant is off duty for the weekend. However, I agree that "learnt" is an acceptable, chiefly British, corruption of the past tense.
JC
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Having had time to look in the books (the builders are in - with vacuum cleaner en chamade!), I learned something new. It is Queen's College, Oxford but Queens' College, Cambridge. I am delighted to note that NPOR has it absolutely correct. You will now be pleased to hear that I have put my pedant's hat away for the weekend.
JC
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I am also reluctant to prolong this matter. However, I have just spoken with a colleague (who is an approved proof-reader for OUP). She disagrees that it was acceptable until recently. As far as OUP is concerned, the apostrophe simply denotes a possessive state and should not be used in these cases.
Then perhaps your colleague should proof-read the third edition (1996) of The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, published by OUP, that states; "Though once commonly used in the plural of abbreviations, the apostrophe is now best omitted in such circumstances". 15 all?
JC
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's to denote plurals of numbers is perfectly acceptable usage. I am a total pedant about apostrophes, and get really ****ed off when I see them being as plurals, but in this case CD's and 1970's there is nothing wrong. Has anyone got a copy of a) that Truss book (I hate the title!),
Fowler?Reluctant, as I am, to enter this discussion, a brief look at Hart, Fowler and Truss suggests that the use of the apostrophe in the plurals of abbreviations and numerals was commonplace until recently, but is now thought best omitted. This, presumably, is part of the same ink and paper saving strategy made into a fine art by music publishers.
JC
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Pierre,
May I join others in welcoming you back to this forum. You have certainly given us plenty to think about in this post!
JC
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For the record, the appellation of 'A4' for the treble end of the claviers is presumably also a typographical error. At 61 notes, the designation is 'C4' - therefore, 'A4' would give a total of 70 notes.
I sense a nest of hornets or, if you prefer, a can of worms here. I would normally use the designation C4 for middle C and the designation C7 for note 61, but I realise there are a number of other descriptions in use. Does the organ industry currently have a preferred system?
JC
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I have always described Pedal Mutations and Mixtures based on a 16' series i.e. a Twelfth is 5 1/3' and a 22, 26, 29 Mixture is 2', 1 1/3' and 1'. Am I correct in working this way? Someone has put a doubt in my mind by suggesting a Twelfth is 2 2/3' whether it is on manual or pedal. Which is correct?
JC
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One instrument that often gets unfortunately overlooked is that found in Saint Paul's Hall in Huddersfield.
I was looking for the details, but for some reason I can't locate this instrument on NPOR. I've probably entered something incorrectly. Can anyone help please?
JC
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I Why, therefore, is it perceived as a typical, musically-bigoted organist's reaction if I happen not to like the sound of orchestral strings?
It isn't perceived by me, but as a former 'cellist I wish I could change your mind.
JC
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You mean, that my entire efforts for the year amount to no more than £15 and a few grams of CO2?
That's just scuppered my efforts to produce the world's first-ever wind-driven wind-blower.
Huh!
MM
What a shame MM, I thought, with the earlier references to horsepower, that you were going to propose a horse powered blower! Mind you, it would be worth a visit to the betting shop if you could find one to keep running right through the Reubke.
JC
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The other day you appeared to be defending the notion that it is perfectly proper to charge the same amount for travelling as for time spent doing the work; at least, that's what I understood from your response to Adrian. Above you have used the words "travelling expenses" which conjure up (in my mind, at least) something quite different from that. So now I'm not entirely sure what your position is.
Even if I accept your notion of a daily charge rather than an hourly one, this argument (row?) began with the suggestion that a day really ought to begin at a respectable hour, rather than being comprised of three hours in the middle of it somewhere, with just enough time after lunch to write an essay in the tuning book explaining why there wasn't enough time to do the work. That, self-evidently, is in nobody's interest.
This is not a one-off affair like a conference, with a set script and a pre-arranged timetable - what there is to do is a completely unknown quantity until you arrive at site and switch on the wind. I would hazard a guess that the majority of tuning books in the land are largely filled with phrases like 'I have done all I could in the time available'. On that basis, working (and charging) by the hour dependent on what you find needs doing when you get there is the most basic form of accountability, and I would suggest forms the basis the most equitable way of operating for churches, tuners and the companies employing them. Apart from anything else, it seems to make it the organ builder's best interest to take the time to do the job properly.
I won't go into the expertise subject because it's too fraught with side avenues but I can think of few professions where the same couldn't be said, from council groundsman to company director.
I think I see an important point here. Why is a tuner/technician turning up to a completely unknown quantity? If I book my car in for a service, I give the garage some indication whether it might need a new tyre or a new engine. How else can they schedule an appropriate number of men and time to deal with the job? Surely in requesting a tuning visit, it is only reasonable to give the contractor some idea of the work required. Beyond that, I am in favour of an agreed hourly rate for the time spent on the instrument plus parts. All other overheads should be rolled in to that hourly rate.
JC
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In Dir ist Freude a good place to start.
Thank you David, I begin to get the idea. I tried In Dir ist Freude last night, but lacking a Zimbelstern I dusted off my somewhat stratospheric and rarely used Cymbale to top the chorus. It succeeded in annoying the neighbour's dog but did have a cheerful tinkly sound.
JC
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I'd have to be a Zimbelstern - I spent a lot of time and perspiration persuading the powers that be to get one on our new instrument so it would be disloyal of me to be anything else.
Peter
It is probably an alarming gap in my education, but beyond being an attractive accessory, I have never understood the reason for a Zimbelstern or a situation where it would be useful. Please can you enlighten me?
JC
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Our FW has black for speaking stops, red for couplers and green for piston couplers. can't say i'm over bothered either way.
For those with less than perfect sight coloured text can be a nuisance. Logical layout and clear labelling is far more important if the intention is to help visiting organists find their way around.
JC
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(BTW, Dupré didn't study organ with Widor, but with Guilmant.)
Thank you acc, yes my mistake, it was composition he studied with Widor, wasn't it?
JC
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That's the marking of the first edition. Widor changed it to crotchet=100 in later editions – a clear sign that the old man himself didn't want it played too fast.
Out of interest, I have just put a metronome on an early Marcel Dupré recording at St Sulpice and at around crotchet=115, it certainly doesn't sound too fast. I am sure, as pupil and successor on this instrument, Dupré would have been aware of Widor's opinion on the correct tempo for the Toccata.
JC
). This movement is not part of Tannhäuser. 
Having engaged my brain and ears this morning, the problem turned out to be as much with the pedal registration as the manual 16. Having lightened the pedal, it all sounds closer to what I was aiming to achieve. Either Gamba or Salicional coupled suboctave from their respective departments to the GO work well and much better than the GO's own Bourdon 16. 
Fowler?
Bossi Scherzo
in The Organ
Posted
Reubke... Just the thing for a flower festival
However, I'm sure it is better that you are presenting the complete piece rather than the extraordinary decision to just play part of it at this year's Proms! (also part of the Elgar G major Sonata in the same programme). I'm sure it will go splendidly.
JC