john carter
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Posts posted by john carter
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Thanks to everyone who contributed to the 'Compare and contrast' thread. One entry pointed to the five disk EMI Classics "Orgues et organistes français du XXè siècle" set. Disk five includes a recording a Maurice Duruflé playing his Prelude and Fugue sue le nom D’Alain. Lawrence is playing this in his A2 recital and it (apparently) makes sense to use the same piece in the compare and contrast exercise. (I do appreciate that playing this is silly. The examination board want something of AB grade six level, and I’ve tried telling him that it’s better to play a grade six piece perfectly but … well … he’s playing the Duruflé).
So; on the EMI recording Duruflé played his Prelude and Fugue re Alain on the Cavaillé-Coll organ at the Institute for the Young Blind in Paris. Can anyone tell me what the specification of this organ was at the time (I’m guessing around the early 1920s)?
Thanks in advance.
Best wishes
J
May I suggest a comparison with the recording of the Duruflé by Vincent Warnier, successor to Marie-Madeleine Duruflé at St Etienne du Mont. It is on the Intrada label.
As for the specification you are seeking, I thought I had it, but I'm sorry I can't find it at the moment. I'll keep trying.
JC
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How do you make a mistake like that?
Not so very long ago I was talking to a Tonmeister who edits music tracks for the big screen (he was doing one of the Harry Potter films at the time) about some recording probem or other I was having (can't remember what) and he assured me that I might just as well buy cheap, unbranded CD-Rs as there are only two manufacturers of them in the world and the branded ones are exactly the same product. Is that right?
I believe there are about 20 manufacturers of blank CDs worldwide. Some are almost certainly better than others and in general, you get what you pay for! Storage conditions are important as extremes of temperature, humidity and exposure to UV light have a bearing on longevity. Thinking further about your Tonmeister's advice, I suspect the majority of lower price CDRs come out of the same factory
JC
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Ah well....and you're going to tell me that the burned ones are better?
[Even though they aren't as durable.]
I suppose that this is just proof of one of life's great rules: You can't win!
Paul, why do you believe CDRs are not as durable? I have seen no scientific research that suggests this. I have read a study that states a pre-recording shelf life of five years and a post-recording life as around twenty years, but this did not discriminate between commercial and consumer blank media. Not very long, though, compared with shellac or vinyl!
JC
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There is much good sense here.
Pierre, I must also disagree - my own instrument (and David's at Romsey) both contain superb G.O. choruses which blend perfectly well with the reeds; although I feel bound to state that I much prefer my own chorus reeds - those at Romsey were, greatly to their detriment, revoiced in 1974. Whatever one's views on tierce mixtures may be, a G.O. quint mixture which commences at 19-22-26-29 really is not that high-pitched. In the case of my own instrument, the G.O. mixture (which has this composition at C1) was originally provided by Robson in 1844. Whilst I cannot say with any certainty that the pipes were not regulated or altered in any way, there was certainly no new pipework introduced in the Walker rebuild of 1965. The result is an utterly musical, un-forced chorus, which 'sings' beautifully - and blends with virtually any flue stop on the G.O. and also with both chorus reeds. These two ranks are superb light-pressure trumpets, which were fitted with harmonic trebles at some point in the past.
Like Cynic, I can think of several good G.O. choruses on English instruments which contain only quint mixtures - and in which the flue-work blends superbly with the reeds.
I would further agree that there are a number of excellent examples by Wm. Hill & Son, which exhibit this characteristic.
When one considers the FHW instrument at Lincoln Cathedral, with its meagre provision of two 12-19-22 mixtures (the Choir 22-26-29 Mixture was inserted by H&H in 1960) - and in this vast building - it is surely evident that Willis relied too heavily on his chorus reeds for brilliance and excitement. Notwithstanding the high regard in which this instrument is held by many, it is also surely worthy of note that it has been criticised by one or two eminent authorities for such points as the fact that the Great and Swell organs have very similar stop-lists, and are, in fact, very similar in both timbre and output.
Pcnd, it would be interesting to know the full composition of the mixtures and their breaks on the Minster organ if you have the information to hand.
JC
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I guess it’s a matter of personal preference. I like to see a short history/specification of the organ, a brief description of the pieces (including what, if any, “special” stops were used), a brief biography of the performer, and (space permitting) photos of the organ.
And don't forget... a photo of the performer. It's always good to put a face to the name. I always appreciate some basic registration notes; Marie-Claire Alain is very good at providing information that is both interesting and useful.
JC
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I have had bad downloads, and I have had bad CDs. But a compressed file using a recent MP3 or Vorbis encoder and a suitable bit rate will not be distinguishable from the original in a proper blind test by at least 99% of the population.
Paul
PS: Not quite the same, but related: a recent AES paper describes a very thorough series of double blind tests which showed that out of the large number of people tested (including some highly-regarded recording engineers, and some audiophiles who were allowed to specify the equipment used) not one could distinguish platback of a "high resolution" (24/96 SACD or DVD-A) recording of any genre from the same played through a system that reduced it to CD (16/44.1) resolution.
Paul
Perhaps their copper wires were not sufficiently oxygen-free
. Seriously though, it is the quality of the recording equipment and the ears of those that make recordings, that determines the best that can be achieved during playback. If it isn't there on the tape to start with, the differences between playback systems become less significant. Unfortunately, much of what is on a tape is frequently discarded in the processing of files for download and even the cleverest algorithms cannot truthfully reconstruct it. My career was chiefly in the high-frequency end of the broadcasting business and the same applies to much of the video that hits our screens. Sadly 99% of the population doesn't seem to notice that either!JC
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This was annoying me, too. After your above post, I went to Board Settings under My Controls, and selected the auto DST setting. After several failed attempts, it also occurred to me to click on the Save Settings button - and now all is OK!
Simple really! Thank you Patrick.
John C
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I am encountering a familiar problem for this time of year - the board time seems to be one hour ahead of GMT. Looking at my settings, I appear to be in the correct time zone (London, Dublin, Casablanca), with auto-correction for daylight saving time ticked. What am I doing wrong?
JC
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The Compenius family was famous for its use of transmissions even at the very beginning of the 17th century. But we do not know how they worked, since there are no Compenius organs extant.
Not really my subject, but isn't there an original Compenius organ, renovated by Mads Kjersgaard, at Frederiksborg Palace in Denmark?
JC
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If the sample in my link was the Mainz instrument, I would be very surprised indeed. Nothing like the same "liquid" quality.
JC
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Thank you, John!
I love the Flûte Harmonique! Could you tell me on which organ it resides, please?
Delightful isn't it? I'm not sure where it was recorded, I just found the sample on the site from which Pierre had linked the others. The only clue I have is a reference on the screen to Rochas - perhaps Pierre Rochas, who apparently produced an organ dictionary with two accompanying CDs, but that's only guesswork Holmes! Pierre L. may know.
JC
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QUOTE(john carter @ Oct 19 2007, 02:51 PM)
The only CD of the Sumsion recording that I can find is on EMI Classics and is rather expensive. Is it good enough to justify a price tag of £35 for a mid-sixties recording? Currently my favourite is the version that is on Thomas Trotter's recent Elgar CD on the Regent label, recorded at Salisbury.
JC
The Sumsion Elgar recording is also used as a filler on an EMI reissue of Elgar choral music. Will furnish more details when I am back in the same postal distict as my CD collection.
Paul
EMI CDM 5 65594 2
Elgar Sacred Music
Worcester Cathedral Choir - Robinson (dir)
Gloucester Cathedral - Sumsion (org)
I don't know waht this cd costs on its own, but it should be borne in mind that for £35.00 you are getting a 12 disc boxed set of archive recordings of all Elgar's significant choral music. This includes the Boult recodings of 'The Apostles' and 'The Kingdom' and the Barbrolli/Halle recording of 'The Deam of Gerontius'.
Trust that this is of use,
Paul.
Thanks Paul, I hadn't realised that it was a boxed set. The price tag now makes more sense.
JC
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So this is un-musical:
http://www.aeoline.de/Wemmetsw_MP3/Hohlfloet_HW.mp3
.....While this is musical:
http://www.aeoline.de/Wemmetsw_MP3/Gambe_HW.mp3
The brightest, the "best", so we may suppress the half of
the organ tone colors.
Pierre
Pierre, I think you are taking pcnd's point too literally, but I am sure he will answer in due course. As far as the flute sample is concerned, I would not find that timbre of stop useful. I consider this one much more musical:
http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/franz_orgel_mp3/...lute%20harm.mp3
JC
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I recommend the superb (and for me, definitive) recording of this piece by Herbert Sumsion on the former instrument in Gloucester Cathedral.* The organ fits the music (and the building) like an old, well-worn glove and the playing is simply better controlled, more approriate in style - and more musical.
* Which, I believe, has been re-mastered and re-released on CD.
The only CD of the Sumsion recording that I can find is on EMI Classics and is rather expensive. Is it good enough to justify a price tag of £35 for a mid-sixties recording? Currently my favourite is the version that is on Thomas Trotter's recent Elgar CD on the Regent label, recorded at Salisbury.
JC
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Please tell us who is playing and on which instrument.
Barry Williams
Concert Hall in Shiroishi City, Japan. Carlo Curley.
JC
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This was recorded on a 1996-built organ:
http://pipeorgan.jp/av/cube/elgar_sonat_mov1_45.mp3
Of course there are still some overly high-pitched Mixtures, and
the reeds might need a bit more "finish", but the design is sound
indeed !
Note the Full-Swell, rather satisfying.
Now the goal is to obtain that with 25 to 50 stops -after all Ely,
W..., Tewkesbury etc were no huge organs-!
Pierre
I have now listened to this recording two or three times and I'm sorry to say that I don't particularly like it. It may perhaps be the performance, which from first hearing I found aggressive and lacking character. (I have only just realised who is playing.) As for the full swell, it doesn't give me the thrilling impression of restrained power that you hear at, for example, Salisbury. However, it's interesting to see and hear the type of instrument that was chosen for this extraordinary building.
JC
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This was recorded on a 1996-built organ:
http://pipeorgan.jp/av/cube/elgar_sonat_mov1_45.mp3
Of course there are still some overly high-pitched Mixtures, and
the reeds might need a bit more "finish", but the design is sound
indeed !
Note the Full-Swell, rather satisfying.
Now the goal is to obtain that with 25 to 50 stops -after all Ely,
W..., Tewkesbury etc were no huge organs-!
Pierre
Do you have any more details about this instrument please, Pierre?
JC
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The subject of Tubas often comes up in this forum, but why do we call a Tuba stop a Tuba? At 8ft. the compass of the organ Tuba is quite different from its orchestral namesake. The Euphonium seems to be a closer relation to the organ Tuba, but I'm not aware of this name being used anywhere. Does anyone know the reason why the term Tuba was adopted?
JC
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My many contacts in the organ world, do in fact confirm that David Wells are Liverpool's leading organ builders, so it is rather childish to get "sour grapes" over such a matter
Not everyone can be wrong. Just try and make yourself better, and stop aleinating so many good people.
Colin Richell.
Colin,
Many of us are very familiar with your views, but I think it is discourteous to our hosts to air them in this way on their site.
JC
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What a splendid idea...can I get back to you on this...I'm not sure whether it would be best to steer people from here onto our existing routes, or set up a purpose-designed online system. Perhaps a simple Pay-pal account at the Appeal office would sort it out....
Anyone else have any experience or bright ideas on this topic??
Adrian
I think the approach taken at Lincoln is quite interesting. There you can adopt an organ pipe for £35. So if they persuade 61 people to subscribe, it generates £2135 towards a rank of pipes. If the subscribers apply for Gift Aid, that sum could increase by another £600. In that way, those donating feel they have provided something tangible towards the restoration. It seems a shame if card payment organisations have to be used, thereby reducing some of the benefit. After all this is a donation, not a purchase of goods and payment guarantees aren't really relevant. Perhaps the Cathedral Shop is already geared up to process card payments?
JC
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Nice to see that this topic gets increasingly more informative!
I think Messrs. Bellamy and Wyld have decided to sort out a difference of opinion in private rather than in public. I think we should leave them to it.
JC
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In a recital last week I played the Concerto, in G major (after Johann Ernst, BWV 592) on what was basically a very Romantic organ, yet with careful choice of registration (something which I regard as very important), I was able to find sounds which I liked and which seemed to suit both the piece and that particular instrument.
The sounds - and the performance - were also warmly appreciated by the audience!
JC
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And this http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N09193 which replaced this: http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=D00491 when an arsonist set fire to the pedalboard on Ash Wednesday (no joke) 1984.
And a similar encouraging story at St. Alphage, Burnt Oak in North West London who now have a very nice little IIP/17 by the Shepherd Brothers using mostly old Willis pipework from a church in Bermondsey. http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=E00095
JC
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CODES FOR ORGAN-IC EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
10-0 Power failure, blower won't start.
10-1 Sense of humour failure, organist won't start.
10-2 Last minute change of hymns - take cover.
10-3 Dropped console key between pedals.
10-4 Wiped off the piston settings for tonight's celebrity recitalist.
10-5 Arrive home from cathedral visit with celebrity recitalist's music instead of yours.
10-6 Hymns played from wrong hymnbook. No difference made to congregation's singing.
10-7 Drunk while playing Bach. Receive unexpected applause at the end.
10-8 Mental block while improvising. Result sounds like something by Margaret Rizza.
10-3 brings to mind the time when the console key was identical to the door/ignition key for my colleague's Morris Minor. So he always had a spare console key if, as occasionally happened, I took it home by mistake. Equally, he knew he always had access to a spare car key. I often wondered how many other cars had the same lock.
10-4 revives a nightmare I hoped I had wiped for ever from my memory!
JC
Simply Unread, Or Just Never Heard?
in The Organ
Posted
Thanks Gary, I hadn't considered that. It's a very interesting point.
JC