john carter
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Posts posted by john carter
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Well, yes - but Cynic also asked this:
'A second question: suppose I had room for another little chest inside the box (and I do) I thought I might add a Tierce (playable only on the big console). This would complete the harmonic series and give me yet another Cornet. What would you add? N.B. keep it fairly small, please!'
Quite correct, it was late when I posted and, it seems, I missed the point.
It isn't clear whether there is still a plan to have a 1' flute on the unenclosed choir, but I would opt to put that on the extra chest in the swell at least for now.
JC
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No manual extension.
It's a matter of principle, really.
Good man!
I feel a new topic coming on. Why is manual extension any worse than using octave couplers? At least you can choose to include or exclude an individual extended stop rather than the "all or nothing" you get with the coupler. Intelligently designed - and used - I see some positive benefits in extension, even on the manuals.
JC
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PS Re daylight bulbs...my wife bought one from a craft shop, intended for use by knitters or those who practice embroidery.
P
It isn't just a daylight bulb that's required, it is a very bright wide spectrum light source. John Lewis have them for domestic use - as do major chemists such as John Bell and Croyden.
JC
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I think we are missing the point here! Cynic has - at least - sixteen stops on the swell, all of which can be used at the big console. However, we were invited to suggest which 13 of the 16 should be chosen to appear on the small console, this being the limit of its piston system. I agree with earlier suggestions that the Fifteenth, Nazard and Septième could be omitted from the small console, knowing that they could be accessed from the large console if a particular piece requires them.
I would be interested to know the composition of the swell mixture.
JC
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"It was a busy week. I don't remember these links and cannot find them, please can you tell me the topic name and post number and I will listen."
Better still, I'll re-post the links:
Anton Heiller, 1953 Improvisation competition final:
http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=vlsiuCsHtGAkBbCeBA (click on 'beluister')
Daniel Roth, 1965 competition final:
http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=emmguCsHtGAkBbCeBuB (once again, click on beluister)
Greetings
Bazuin
Thanks, Bazuin.
I have a marginal preference for the Heiller both in terms of the performance and the sound, but then I have become a hopeless old romantic! From what I had read, I expected the Marcussen changes to seem much more extreme. However, it sounds magnificent in the 1965 recording and just as exciting as I remember it to be from that time. It is interesting to see how my opinions - and probably my ears - have changed over the years.
JC
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Last week I posted links of really fascinating online recordings of the organ from both before and after Marcussen's work, shame nobody picked up on these or commented on them.
It was a busy week. I don't remember these links and cannot find them, please can you tell me the topic name and post number and I will listen.
JC
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I see April is here again!
That's probably what they said to John Compton when he invented the polyphone!
JC
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He still managed to write the only truly "great" organ music other than Bach's. (I know no-one will disagree!)
Stephen Barber
I'm surprised that you didn't get a bigger response to this one, Stephen. As a Franck-ophile, I am hardly going to disagree. Perhaps not every organ work was great, but Prière and Fantaisie in A are top-notch as far as I am concerned. I think there are other examples of great organ music by other composers, but then how does one define great?
JC
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Finally, thanks so much for the Reubke link - yes isn't it marvellous? However, some time ago I heard Mark Blatchly play that piece at Charterhouse Chapel . . . and, without having yet heard the Marshall & Ogletree at good volume through proper speakers, the Charterhouse instrument acheived quite the equal effect in its setting.
Having said that, perhaps one should not be seduced by the M&O instrument. A press release for it mentioned it being a collection of samples from over 40 organs and perhaps this says it all. Once one has the hardware and the software, digital stops are cheap. Big crescendos can be achieved and there one is listening to up to 40 organs at once. It's not real - it's super-real. As such, an organ such as this takes itself too seriously - and I bet that in 15 years time that church will be clamouring for a pipe organ.
It runs on linux. Putting horrid hard discs aside (does one really trust quantum scale magnetics in the longer term?), I know to my cost with a linux server that the slightest difficulty 4 years down the line is greeted with "Sorry sir: this version of linux is no longer supported." Such instruments should be taken for the temporary exuberance and fun that they are, and no more.
It's easy to be seduced by 40 or even just 5 organs in one - this is way beyond the addition of a select choice of ear ticklers and where this is the case audiences should be made aware that they are about to listen through technicolor spectacles.
Funny, I thought that less than 24 hours ago you were saying that the Trinity Wall Street Organ sounded "horrendous". Now you seem to be searching for other excuses to rubbish it. Many restored organs may have material from several different sources. How is this different from using a variety of samples? The craft is choosing what works well together. With half a century of experience with electronic instruments, I would say that the M&O is the best I have ever heard. I accept it's still not the same as a pipe organ, just as a CD of the Lindsay Quartet is not the same as hearing them play live, but even so it is quite acceptable. It is also put together by real people who care about their work and have feelings. Please, before you start chucking stones at things someone has told you you shouldn't like, make sure you aren't standing in your own greenhouse. And please have some consideration for others you might hurt in the process.
JC
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Have just gone to http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/music/?organ&p=hear without success in finding Reubke - if anyone can find the link, clearly we'd no doubt appreciate it.
You started in the right place. Now click on Conservatory Stars Festival near the bottom of the page and then scroll down to Paul Jacobs. He might not be Roger Fisher, but he doesn't do a bad job and as a method of showing the wide range of voices on this instrument, this clip seemed an appropriate choice.
JC
PS It's worth hooking your computer into a decent sound system to hear this.
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As I check it again my youngest son is muttering "sounds horrendous" . . .
May I suggest that you and your youngest son have a look at www.trinitywallstreet.org and find your way through to the organ pages. Drill down to find Paul Jacobs, head of organ studies at the Juilliard, playing Reubke and listen. When you have done so, come back and tell us if you still think it sounds horrendous.
JC
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Incredibly helpful! Thanks! I've looked up Laukhaft on Google without results . . . so if anyone has further clues they'd be appreciated. But this project will have to wait till the autumn.
By the way, does anyone have ideas for further diminutive controls for a console? My lit stop buttons under the manuals work well but there are still more to fit somewhere . . . taking a break for contemplation at present!
Best wishes
Spot
Try Laukhuff, you may have more success.
JC
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Sorry, off topic, but can anyone direct me to information about the organ at Trönö. I have failed to find a specification and the Peter Collins site doesn't refer to it at all.
JC
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As an amateur, I'm not really qualified to advise, but having tried it this morning with Gareth's suggested scheme and Alastair's recommendation to add the Swell Octave, it sounded fine. Of course every instrument and its acoustic is different, so I suspect it will need some experimentation, but Gareth has set a good starting point.
JC
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========================
Mmmmmm!
I checked it our, and the figures I came up with were a maximum of 1200mm of annual rainfall in the Ardennes, and over 2000mm of rainfall in the English Lake District.
Where I live on top of a moor in Yorkshire, we could survive without washing-machines by hanging the washing out to clean it, and bringing it back in to dry it.
The local cats gather in the bus shelters, even on sunny days, because they've learned from experience that dry spells don't last long.
MM
Given that t' birds fly back'ards to keep t'muck out o' their eyes, I doubt t' washing would be very clean if tha left it aht!
JC (from Back o't Muin)
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"Electronics are only temporary marvels "
Indeed. Yesterday I visited a church (as DOA) to advise on an electronic instrument. It had been sold to them as the latest technology about seveteen years ago. It has no stops. Instead, there are myriads of pistons and a visual display of the stops selected via the pistons and other gadgets. It seems that despite being so wonderful only about six were ever made. Registration is difficult; extremely complex might be a better description.
However, the mechanism is failing. The contacts are worn and keep breaking. The maintenance contract is said to be £400 per annum. Although the quality of service is good, with very prompt attention, the failure rate makes the instrument unreliable.
The parish is upset that the instrument was sold within memory as being the latest technology, yet is not merely outdated, but is actually mechanically faulty.
Another church I visited the same day has a tracker action organ about twenty years old that is failing.
Barry Williams
I think the parish are expecting too much. A seventeen year old car of comparable cost to the electronic is equally likely to have mechanical faults through wear and tear and will certainly have outdated technology compared with today's models. A car purchased for a quarter of a million pounds seventeen years ago might reasonably be expected to have a longer life. If an electronic organ is all that a church can afford, they must plan on the basis that it will need to be replaced within twenty years or so.
JC
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The funny thing though is that after a year and a half with my 2 manual Wyvern - no frills etc. - I have not got bored with the sounds. Apart from the artificial nature of an instrument of that size being in a front room of an Edwardian terrace house (which the reverb. just about makes up for) my playing has improved and so far I have not felt the need for extra exotica. A quieter 8' flute on the Great would be nice (I can always revoice the current one though) and maybe a 16' manual Bourdon but so far nothing more - maybe I'm just boring!
AJJ
Not boring, Alastair, just sensible!
JC
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I'm sorry to have to say that have not come across the Widor Gothique
Then you must do so! For me, it is Widor's finest. I first heard Dupré perform it when I was about thirteen and I had no need of anything sweet to reward me, it was totally spellbinding. There is no point in comparing it with Reubke - the two are entirely different propositions, like Marmite and Caviar if you wish to continue the food analogy. I happen to like both, but not at the same time.
JC
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Further to an earlier comment on this thread, I quite like the third movement.
I always feel it would be a good piece for accompanying a silent film. A bit of menace, a chase or two and then a tender romantic scene to finish. Aaah!
JC
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I'm having problems deciding what publication to choose from widor's 5th symphony namely the toccata. I want some thing well laid out has anyone any ideas ?
many thanks
I found the Warner Brothers version of Sym 1-5, ISBN 0-75799-464-4, more up to date than the Dover edition and similarly good value at £10.99. My copy came from Chappells. I haven't got the Warner version of 6-10, for which I use the Dover edition with various amendments pasted in. I must try again to find it sometime.
JC
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There is a down side to these signs and the implications thereof, viz. a lot of well-intentioned people then went around lining blower boxes with asbestos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some kinds of asbestos are not particularly stable and there is a risk that given time wispy fibres start to come away from the lining and can get blown through the organ and out into the space. I will never forget taking a small un-wanted organ out of a grammar school at Burnham, Near Beaconsfield, Bucks. Day 1 we'd taken the thing apart and day 2 we expected to come back for the bits with our lovely hired (and booked) van. Unfortunately, being an honest bloke (mostly) as I finished work on day 1, I told the bursar that we wouldn't be taking the blower box with us because it had asbestos in it. Mistake!
Being a conscientious chap, he promptly phoned Shire Hall for advice, they insisted that nobody should enter the hall; we were sent away for several days while an 'expert' team came to effect the (extremely expensive) removal of (a very small amount of) asbestos. Our van hire went west, of course.
Meanwhile, at my school in Gloucester the blower box for the Hall organ was also lined with asbestos. I drew the bursar's attention to the fact and his decision was to screw the inspection panels on tighter! Presumably on the basis of 'what the eye don't see...'
I don't know how many lives were put at risk with that one.
Unfortunately, this is one of my specialist subjects. Anything that has asbestos that is crumbling or shedding fibres is dangerous and needs removal or encapsulation by experts. It is a very expensive process, but the risks make it too serious to ignore. Air tests are relatively straightforward and will quickly indicate whether urgent action is required. I know of people who have suffered horrible deaths as a consequence of this material, please do not ignore it.
JC
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I can't find the topic now, since we were clearly on a nice side-track at the time, but I am rushing to correct an(other) earlier mis-statement. Issuing forth a typical pontification as usual, I commented upon the Compton at St.George's Cathedral Southwark. I asserted that the Great and Choir shutters had been removed when the firm of Ellis Scothon carried out major improvement works upon the instrument. These shutters were out when I last played, but upon chatting tonight to the very organ-builder who did the work, I gather that they are back in now - albeit the openings have been cleared somewhat and the ratio of shutter-opening has also been improved.
Thanks Paul, I can't find the original either at present. I am pleased to learn that the shutters have been re-instated and improved, putting the choir division back under expression.
JC
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Dear John
Are you saying that soft-tuned Steinways are art and laser-phased Bechsteins are science? 
Can we apply this to hard percussive Germanic chiffs and nice creamy early 20th century Harrison and Harrisons 
?Before :angry: Pierre tells me that tuning an H&H to an unequal temperament would be uncivilised, don't worry, I wouldn't dream of suggesting it!
Or perhaps . . . what's the mildest UT that we could get away with?Best wishes
Spot
I'm saying that great music has no need of laser phasing any more than a great photograph needs a Leica. The art comes from the user, not the engineering. Minor imperfections in an instrument often add rather than detract from its charm.
JC
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Not wanting to divert this thread away from organs, on piano tuning I'm intrigued at the reference to the three strings being detuned. Perhaps this is necessary on the (music interrupting) brilliance of Steinway and Yamaha to soften them up, but on a softer Bechstein for chamber use, the tuning of the three strings to be not just in tune but to respond in phase, brings a laser-like definition to the sound.
I think you have just defined the difference between science and art. In a cultured civilisation, each has its place.
JC
Are you saying that soft-tuned Steinways are art and laser-phased Bechsteins are science? 
Can we apply this to hard percussive Germanic chiffs 
?
Or perhaps . . . what's the mildest UT that we could get away with?
Armchair Designers - A 'real Life' Challenge
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
I didn't mean to imply that there is no use for a Nazard on the Swell, just that personally I would prefer to retain the Vox Humana for everyday use. As for the Octavin rather than a Tierce, it's personal preference again. In my teenage years I used an instrument with no mixture, but an 8 4 2 1 chorus, and I still like the clarity of that sound.
JC