mgp

MT was certainly in there last time I had access (3yrs). Presumably Sam's supervisor will be able to get him access On the general point about exclusion of mere mortals: could this be something that the RCO looks to provide as a membership benefit?

My point (which you neatly avoided!) was that you targetted one diploma for your assertion. I'm glad to see you've backed off this position later down. I haven't claimed, and don't claim, that any diploma (obtained lord knows when) is proof of very much in terms of current capability - unless there's an element of re-validation at regular intervals. Of course it does say that you could do it once upon a time! You're avoiding the point again. They're both on list D - so you can have one of them and neither is that easy to 'bring off'. I'm not sure I see the Schumann BACH fugues and BWV 669, 670 & 671 (all on FRSM and in my repertoire) as that tough either - cherrypicking's easy when you set out to do it. Presumably it would be in order to play all six BACH fugues and some related Mendelssohn and JSB along with a learned paper on Schumann's researches into polyphony in the 1840's. Where's the value in that - beyond ticking the ABRSM's 'academic' box? True, in fact play them well and the examiners would cheer. I'm glad to see you've made a 40% increase on the original 15 mins you quoted, which was my point. I also think your 21 mins implies playing the Vierne rather faster than marked (or having very short gaps between the pieces). Yes I've had the requirements for quite a while and still am unconvinced of their practical value as opposed to a nice income stream for the ABRSM - at least at FRSM level. Depends on whether it is something that people expect you to do. My customers do. These are skills that get used daily in my work - obviously not in yours! Exactly why I think davidb might benefit from learning repertoire rather than worrying about collecting 'trophies' except where they, rightly or wrongly, are seen as 'essential prerequsites'. In my old job we used to put huge numbers of CVs of very capable people straight onto the 'no' pile. Not through prejudice, but through time/cost pressures (there was a 'day job' to do as well. We could only afford so much time to draw up a short list. if we had lots of applicants we raised the 'bar' to make our job doable in the allotted time. Fair? No. Pragmatic? Yes. So davidb (if you haven't fallen asleep) make sure you know what people who affect your goals and targets value and do that.

If you take the first sentence and replace FRCO with FRSM (or any other qualification) it would be equally true (or false) - your prejudices are showing a little here! As you say its a matter of 'horses for courses' but lets get the facts about the 'runners and riders' straight! The FRCO recital requirement is 25-30 mins and the lists force the candidate to play major works from the key schools back-to-back. I note FRSM allows up to two-thirds of the programme to be works chosen by the candidate outside the set list and allows (possibly encourages) the candidate to design a programme around one idea or composer. It would be very easy to design an 'all Bach' or 'French symphonic' or whatever programme that complied - hardly a 'rounded' test. The 4 keyboard skills test competences that are seriously useful to the majority of organists who don't live on recitals alone. FR also requires two serious essays, a wide ranging aural, historic performance skills. and continuo/orchestral transcription. Analysis and Fugue are approx 1/3 of the total paperwork requirement. I believe that this requirement was drawn up by an external (non-organist) consultant. I'm unsure of the value of a 'recitalist' diploma, I've never gone to a recital or concert because the performers are (or are not) qualified So to go back to where this thread started, I'd encourage Davidb to look seriously at the options and discuss them with his teacher in the light of where he wants to end up. 'Just' learning a wide range of repertoire might be the best plan. Good luck either way

According to an interview with JB in today's Guradian she ends up playing at the RAH.

Most of my stuff is 'occasional' - like the ASB responses written between the Vicar announcing we were using ASB for evensong one morning and the 5pm choir rehearsal that day- and two psalm chants to match. I don't even have a copy of the responses, but the chants seem OK in a journeyman kind of way. Various 'reharmonisations/descants' some more vulgar than others and various fanfares/processionals for the arrival/departure of various clerics. The only thing that's lasted, as far as I know, is a (pastiche) congregational mass setting written for unison voices some 20 years ago that's still in use once a month. There are various 'sketches' for organ which lie somewhere between improvisation and composition

I think you've made the key point. If the client abdicates to "Consultant: (insert favourite name) " then they deserve the 'safe' predictable result they get. Given the potential litigation no consultant is going to risk going out on a limb. A hundred years ago they took 5% for recommending FW, AH and JWW on rotation. To get a great result one has to trust the builder. was there a consultant at WM - I doubt it!

I agree and surely it should be so. This was true of Father Willis, Arthur Hill, JWW, Aristide Cavaille-Coll, Arp Schnitger, Father Smith, Ategnati, Cliquot etc etc i.e. they had a clear view of their ideals and priorities and implemented them consistently. You ordered an instrument from the builder who made the sort of instrument you wanted. No point in asking builder A to make a 'builder B style' - you'd have got very short shrift! Seems to me that if there is a problem today it lies more with the client who needs to be a bit less wimpy and take responsibility for saying what they want and finding the builder who can (and has) made such instruments. I realise this is a bit radical - particularly in a thread starting with RD who freely acknowleged that the reason he picked H&H for the RFH was quality of workmanship and in no way their alignment with his tonal ideas!

This was another of CWE's great enthusiasms so I 'had' to learn it and came to love it - although '12 tone' its clearly in d minor - but the registration scheme (based on the old organ at Harvard) is another matter. Given Downes was another advocate (and gave many performances of the Hindemith sonatas) is this 'Carl Weinrich' connection another 'cross-link' for MM?? There's a detailed study of his music (and 2CDs) by Sverker Jullander - part of his PhD. There's more information at the GO Art website

Agree its a great piece. Given the action 'foibles' (eg runs in the touch boxes that make certain major 3rds continue to sound when one note is released - notably Sw mid F and A, but also a couple on the Gt - and a very slow middle G) one wonders whether this piece was chosen because it avoids them all ...and why not -its a glorious sound

How about a Kalmus edition of VIERNE?

I think 'Instructions with Angels' dates from 1977 with the CD release in 1997 You can hear a 30 second clip from it by pasting the following into Realplayer/file rtsp://rms.samples.dmpcontent.com/600161/n/084/09/61/0840961_0105_00_0900.rm

I happened upon the following in youtube whilst looking for something else.

Good to see someone's looking at this stuff - there are lot of good pieces which, as you say, don't get much exposure. One of my teachers (Conrad Eden) was a keen student of this music -and the related Scandinavians (Nielsen, Reda etc) so I was encouraged to learn quite a lot of this repertoire as a rookie. Pieces that I still play include the Kleine Praeludien Op 9 of Schroeder (the final C major one is a good short end piece), the Holstein Orgelbuchlein of Micheelsen, the Choralvorspiele of Max Drischner and some of the Thirty Pieces Op 18/1 of Distler - there are 'free' pieces and also sets of variations. There are several other "orgelbuchlein"s of this period. Most have a mixture of movements that can be put together to form suites of varying length and complexity. This music is mostly for manuals - useful with pupils who play the piano well and want to play something more recent. There is a wide-ranging collection of music mainly from Germany called Zeitgenossische orgelmusik in Gottesdienst published by Hinrichsen. Vol IV (No 2006d) (1970) includes works by Baum, Burkhard, Ducommun, Dupre, Heer, Hens, Hess, Jenny, Kraft, Kuhn, Langlais, Micheelsen, Muller, Pfiffner, Reichel, Schroeder, Studer, Vollenweider, and Wehrle a total of 36 pieces arranged in key order. The quality is variable but there's enough that's worth a look. I've not seen the other volumes (I have a feeling that they are from earlier periods) There are also three very good Sonatas by P. Hindemith that seem to have disappeared from view!

I rather like 'Trumpeting Organ Morgan' and it goes down v well with the public.

Deleted - duplicated the links in Pauls reply above

I don't know Mad Rush but I do play the organ version (by Donald Joyce) of the conclusion of Act III of Satyagraha - a gentle piece and not too hard! I have the score of Dances II and IV but have never found the ability to maintain concentration for the whole 20 mins or so.

No question that US builders were seriously rattled by the Great Depression (as were organ builders elsewhere) - but one suspects the threat in the US was more from Mr Hammond's products than from stylistic differences. I think you are allowing a romantic committment to a belief (much promoted in retrospect by its proponents) that American developments all happened in the 1930's (ie post the Hamburg conference of 1926). This seems to be blinding you to the messages from the early 1920's - and don't forget that lots of US musicians went to Paris soon after WWI and took their experiences back - eg read Witford (writing in TAO in 1925) after study with Vierne & Widor. And the Estey Co established a scholarship at Fontainbleu in 1924. Of course the uptake was patchy, and builders went up several cul-de-sacs whilst trying things out. And, of course, those early 1930's European instruments were a shock - but it wouldn't be the first time that a 'fast follower' was given the credit for the work of unlikely pioneers would it? Widor/Schweitzer were a great champions of Andreas Silbermann (eg Marmoutier and Ebermunster) and not of the Ostfriesland school (had they heard it??). No question that the latter was the main post war focus - including the misperception that they were 'natural bach organs'. The question is: what sounds/experiences/ideals (including early editions of Buxtehude and Bach by Tournemire and Widor - or even Dupre) were these Americans taking back in the late 20's?? Anyway - back to the key desk and some real music (thanks Tommy!)

Gents not sure that we've cleared up kiM and kiRN There are a number of Kirnberger temperaments; see wiki. For what it's worth a number of HNB and GDB instruments were tuned to Werkmeister III in the 70's.

I think 107 v 24 fits the bill

MM fascinating stuff and apologies if what follows is a route you've pursued and discarded. Fesperman (1962) credits Holtkamp as being first (positiv at Cleveland in 1933). Ochse (History of the Organ in in the US 1975) suggests Emerson Richards (he of Atlantic City) as an earlier influence. The 1924 Atlantic City High School Organ (5 manuals 165 stops) included a Choir organ on 2" with a full diapason chorus from 8' to IV Fourniture. David Fuller opens an article entitled 'Commander-in-chief of the American revolution in Organbuilding: Emerson Richards' with the following claim: Young Organists! The classic revival in American organ design was not begun by G Donald Harrison. Nor by Walter Holtkamp, nor by Herman Schlicker, least of all by the postwar masters, Noack, Brombaugh, Taylor or even Charles Fisk. The real leader was a New Jersey politician named Emerson L Richards Apparently Richards made several tours to England and Europe and published a string of articles in The American Organ. One, in 1924, included a seven-column history of the European positive and English "chaire" organs as a prelude to describing his design for the High School choir organ. There are other examples from this period, eg a low pressure chorus with 'Schulze mixture' at St Mark's Philadelphia in 1926 There's much more about his travels in Europe in 1930 and other designs/articles he produced. The article appears in "C.B.Fisk Organ Builder Vol 1 Essays in his Honour" Westfield Center 1986 pp55-82

As I understand it the case pipes are Hill and are in their third position in the Chapel (all at the west end): 1 Initially just in front of the arcade (with the crowns) with a two manual organ behind. 2 Moved foward and upward in 1968 with the console below (moved from the top of the spiral staircase) and a new hole cut in the stonework, surrounded by ironwork from the old New College organ. 3. Lowered as part of the JWW instrument of 1993. There always were 16' bourdons to the side - they were just much less obvious (behind more grillwork) before.

There are similar crowns at Exeter College, Oxford dating from the 1860's

Hmmn - just remember that not all the stops work until you press the right pedal!!

I've lost touch with Alain & Sylvie - he may well still be at St Etienne (and at St Eloi in Rouen). I haven't seen them since the mid 1990's. I got my copy of the Davy (in German) the hard (and expensive) way - via www.abebooks.com Alain M was also a bit of a lad in his BMW - I still remember him leading me from Falaise (church locked alas) to Caen the wrong way up two one-way streets and then taking an (illegal) left turn off a dual carriage-way. His car, of course, was happily tucked into the gap in the crash barrier but the 'stupid Brit' was left with his tail hanging out waiting to be hit (I certainly learnt several new French gestures!!). I don't recall too much adherence to speed limits either! On the other hand he was (is) a heck of a player - one night he accompanied my wife (a mezzo) through most of Die Walkure on a harpsichord without turning a hair.

Robert, Thank you for your contribution and I hope to take you up on your kind offer. Our 1899 FW (like Truro installed before the building was finished) has the same 'fall off' characteristics, and the same (north Quire) location. For 'big' services one either 'blasts' the Cantoris side of the choir or loses control (and occasionally both!). I'm intrigued by the references to 'new Harmonic Trebles' at Lincoln in a previous post. Our Great 8' Tromba is pretty insipid and ineffective in comparison with the swell Cornopean (though clearly the FW original). I'd always been led to believe that this 'miscalculation' was a local aberration rather than a consistent error of balance by FW late in his life. It's well documented that Dixon had the St Bees' Great and Pedal reeds (and solo Tuba) remade (and with significant increases in wind pressure) by H&H in 1906 - one assumes he wasn't that happy with the originals! Roffensis: Are you saying the same happened at Lincoln? If true this is serious for us, as the two instruments that I use to justify leaving our (significantly unbalanced) reeds alone may well have both had such treatment - presumably for good reason. Any definite information please? Thanks Martin