Aeron Glyn Preston

They say there's nothing new under the sun... http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=R01937

Yes, English Romantic choir organs were inadequate, but my point was that there is a model to strengthen them into a proper "Chaire" division while keeping them in an English style. The Windsor and Beverley choir organs were pretty much exactly what I had in mind!

Before the swell became the second manual on English instruments, didn't the Chaire organ on larger English instruments not have such a principal chorus to mixture? Even a small Schnitger such as this has a set of principals on the secondary division. Could not an adaptation of the old English-style chaire organs be a better approach for adapting English Romantic organs than the "toy positivs" described earlier? In addition, however good the St Giles spec. is, I wouldn't have thought a German-style positiv division, even with a full set of principals, would be ideal for an instrument otherwise conceived in an English style. Weren't Gray and Davison, as well as Hill, still making Choir divisions of the old kind well into the middle of the 19C?

Thank you! So is the basic gist of modern "positifs" tending more towards a collection of Baroque-style solo voices (including octave and mutation flutes), rather than a secondary principal chorus (like the old English "chaire" organs)? Hence the lack of a full complement of principal ranks, as I was questioning?

That's fair enough, but that doesn't quite answer the question - can a positif chorus with a mixture of flutes and principals at higher pitches sound coherent? I'm sure I've seen a few specs where on the positif there'd be a principal at either 4' or 2', but not both, plus a mixture, whereas I'd expect Principal 4' + Fifteenth 2' before having a mixture.

I have wanted to ask a question about Neo-Baroque positifs. I'm sure I've seen several specifications with such divisions, whether as part of a Neo-Baroque organ or tacked onto 19C instruments. Why do so many either lack a 4' Principal or a Fifteenth? I've often seen a Gemshorn as the strongest 4' flue, or something similar at 2'. Can combinations such as the following really work as coherent choruses? (8' Chimney Flute/SD, 4' Principal, 2' Gemshorn, Cymbel; 8' Chimney Flute/SD, 4' Gemshorn, 2' Fifteenth, Cymbel.) I see that in smaller positif divisions the 8' would be stopped or half-stopped, but having a mix of flutes and principals higher up in the pitch spectrum seems rather odd to me. Wouldn't the choir/"chaire" divisions of older English organs always have had at least a principal at 4', then also a fifteenth if a 2' was also called for?

Too much for me - sorry. I don't care if it is Elgar's.

It does at the least seem rather strange...

I'm sorry to have to say this, but I thought the accretions to Jerusalem were unbearably cheesy, particularly the violin figurations towards the start of the second verse. Shame we didn't hear more of the organ too. I'm glad that plenty of Parry got an outing though! A much under-rated composer IMHO.

As we say in Wales, Pasg Hapus i bawb!

Thanks for pointing me towards Clive. NPOR is wrong - I played the organ two nights ago!

No problem!

Willis...

A couple of days ago, I had the privilege of playing this organ, which used to belong to William Gladstone. The church in which it lives is really in the back of beyond - deep in the Welsh-speaking rural heartland of Montgomeryshire (as was) - but organ and church are kept well maintained by a small but dedicated congregation. What a fantastic instrument it is! It just shows that the best organ builders can design tonally coherent instruments whatever their size. Willis's larger organs are justly famous, but which of his small organs deserve more attention? P. S. To any editors of the NPOR on this forum, the Harmonic Flute on this organ should be at 4' pitch.

It looks great! It is a shame the borrowed stops are "either/or" though. I can certainly think of situations where I'd like to have the 4' Flute available on both. I suppose that can be worked around. Here's the Goetze and Gwynn example which I mentioned before:- http://www.goetzegwynn.co.uk/newchurch/rehringhausen.shtml

What would people think of a scheme where a choir division (in the old English sense, with a secondary principal chorus) was borrowed almost entirely from the Great? Did Goetze and Gwynn not do something along those lines? How easy is it to do in terms of blend, etc.? I can imagine it would be a great idea for small parish churches - a way of getting a pipe organ, with a reduced number of pipes, but no extension!

... Anybody?

Sorry to drag up an old topic, but I'd be very interested to know of some multum-in-parvo schemes designed by Bernard Edmonds. I'd like to understand what his perspective was on what parish churches really needed, given that he was a priest. Could anybody please inform me of some, with NPOR links if possible?

Sounds wonderful! It is a fine beast, but definitely showing its age. I know the former Director of Music at the Abbey, who felt that the choir and organ were not given the respect they deserved. Have things suddenly changed?

Thank you Pierre and MM. I guess I've just been unfortunate to have played organs with bad tierce mixtures.

Can anyone explain to me why tierce mixtures were so popular in British organs pre-1850? The beauty of the French plein-jeu makes me question the need for tierces in the chorus. I suppose they're better without equal temperament, but I personally am not enamoured of tierces in the principal chorus. The "jeu de tierce" of the French tradition I do find beautiful, however, but it is a different thing altogether.

This is an interesting example of a similar idea, where the bottom octave of the pedal Bourdon is available on the bottom octave of the swell manual. Presumably the Sw-Gt coupler would have been handy in this case, so the bass to a hymn, for example, could be played on the Great alone. http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=D00050

Isn't the Grand Cornet (on the Grand-Orgue) on the classical French organ supposed to support the trebles in the Grand Jeu?

Excellent! Very glad it has found a home.

I see that this organ has been removed from the IBO list - any news on where it has gone?