Colin Pykett

That might reveal more than the identity of the organ itself ... I do know, but it would go against forum netiquette to broadcast either piece of information! It's a slight pity though, because some valid points have been made about this instrument which would be all the more interesting were its identity known to members. CEP

I agree with SL. What on earth can this remark mean? Who's redacted what, where and when? Or maybe we are only now finding out what's happening because of leaks from Edward Snowden? Or Julian Assange? (I jest of course, but it's nevertheless a slightly odd remark). CEP

Far be it from me to tell people what to do regarding performing rights, but this piece is presumably still in copyright in the UK because the composer has not been deceased for 70 years. PRS for Music is not known for its light touch when pursuing infringers either ... To the best of my knowledge (because they told me so themselves) I believe one could get away with performing it as part of what PRS calls 'divine service', where the rules apparently do not apply. However if it were to be performed in the same building with the same audience 5 minutes after the service ceased, then beware. (They also made this clear in the same email). CEP

There aren't many left now. There's a tiny one at St Dyfnog's, Llanrhaedr (1894) and a slightly larger one along the same lines at St Mary's, Pilton (1898 - this is the Devon Pilton, not the one near Glastonbury). At least, this was the case when I last revisited the situation, though things might have changed now. The Llanrhaedr instrument is/was the more authentic in that it hadn't had much done to it in terms of tonal changes, though that at Pilton has experienced major interventions. The saving grace here is/was that the original Hope-Jones stops were still entirely intact and readily identifiable when I last played it. This organ had a shaky outlook a few years ago when the church itself had major fabric problems which verged on the dangerous. However I understand these difficulties have now been resolved. Both have splendid (if you like that sort of thing) and well-trodden Diaphones on the pedals which virtually obliterate everything else! As period pieces they are well worth visiting for first-hand experience of what a Hope-Jones organ sounds like, especially as they obviously won't last for ever. Forgive yet another reference to my website, but there's an article on the Pilton organ at: http://www.pykett.org.uk/the_hope-jones_organ_at_pilton.htm This was first published in Organists' Review in 1993 so it would be difficult now to find it there unless one has a lot of back issues. Hence an excuse for the web reference just given. Oh, by the way it also has a Phoneuma (vide the nom-de-plume of the author quoted above!). This is interesting of itself - it's a double touch stop tablet which brings on a second undulating rank when pressed a second time. CEP

The instrument was actually built by Norman and Beard to the Hope-Jones system of electrical control. Therefore I wonder why W T Best's "hopeless" epithet was borrowed here? In any event, anonymous and wholly subjective casual insults are seldom helpful, and in this case they obscure the facts about H-J which demonstrate the more positive aspects of his legacy if one takes the trouble to look them out. An unfortunate choice of topic title for one of the better organ forums, I feel, especially in view of the tragic dimension of the loss. Some little-known details of the mechanism of this organ, both inside the console and the organ chambers, can be found by following the link below. This takes you to a page on my website, from which a 90-plus page PDF document can be downloaded if you wish. (I thought it better to do it this way rather than commit you to an instant PDF download here, which you might well not thank me for!). It contains a number of photographs together with detailed descriptions of the ingenious combination system, the electrical power-saving system applied to the slider machines, and other aspects of this remarkable instrument. It also illustrates technical aspects of the broader canvas which was Hope-Jones's work in Britain before he left for America. I should add that the document relies heavily on material kindly supplied by some of those who have been intimately involved with the renovation of this organ over recent years, at least two of whom I believe are members of this forum. I shall not name them here but they are acknowledged in the document itself. http://www.pykett.org.uk/HJOrganActions.htm CEP

It's in Clive Sidney's console drawing - see post #2 for the link. CEP

Wim Dijkstra has a personal website which includes his email address. I assume it's the same guy who was playing in the youtube clip. CEP

As promised in post #33, here is my best effort at answering dhm's question about swell pedal angles which kicked off this topic. Initially I suggested (#2) he might look at Clive Sidney's excellent console drawing, without having refreshed my memory of what it contained beforehand. Chris Lord then correctly pointed out (#6) that it did not completely answer the question. I also offered in #2 to measure the operating angles of the widely used Kimber Allen electric action swell pedal. I've now done this, after much ferreting around in the workshop for a suitable engineer's protractor and spirit level, and much dust having been released when I removed the knee board from one of my consoles. Results are: The K-A pedal lies at 65 degrees to the vertical at 'box open' and 34 degrees to the vertical at 'box closed'. (Measurements subject to some small uncertainty owing to the general awkwardness of the situation). Within a few degrees, the 'box closed' figure is therefore not far off Clive Sidney's drawing which I think gives 50 degrees from the horizontal (NB not the vertical), though he does not show the 'box open' value as far as I can see. Incidentally, K-A do not provide this information in their catalogue, at least the version on their website which I've just looked at. So whenever you need the latest info, come to the Mander forum! Hope this is some help. CEP

Jocularity aside, I'm not convinced there is much slack in the pipe organ business today, which seems to be having a hard time of it rather more often than firms might wish. As one example, a well known UK firm had to recapitalise itself to the tune of £300K only a few years ago, this being raised partly through banks and partly through the directors themselves. The loss arose from the failure of just a single contract, illustrating the fragility of its business position which is likely mirrored elsewhere. This info came from a publicly available press report. So if there was apparent automobile opulence on the part of the directors of this firm, at least they were prepared to plough some of it back into the business. Which means that a number of their employees are still employed today when otherwise they might not have been, and that the firm has continued to do good quality work since. Which all begs a question. What has any of this got to do with the original post which kicked off this thread? Answer - very little. Don't we wander off-topic - it's fun though, and I'm as much to blame as anybody. So shortly I'll atone by trying to answer the question originally posed about swell pedal angles. Watch this space. CEP

I once had what is now a classic car, a Riley Pathfinder, in which the gear stick was mounted to the right of the driver on the floor, just inside the door. It took a bit of getting used to, but it was otherwise a fine vehicle for my tastes. Cars are not unlike infinite speed and degradation swell pedals in some respects - in both you have to press the pedal further to make it go faster, and both have a 'neutral' position and fuel gauges mounted near to the 'driver'. Were Henry Willis and/or Aubrey Thompson-Allen car enthusiasts in the 1930s I wonder? If so, did they (perhaps unconsciously) design their enthusiasms into their novel swell engine? CEP

I've played some organs with the infinite speed and degradation system too - St Andrew's Kingsbury comes to mind (it might have lost it by now). However I believe those at Liverpool have been upgraded with fancier console indicators, using LED displays to replace the previous ones (which were car dashboard fuel gauges in some organs; bargraph-type displays using small incandescent lamps in others). I saw little point in it and still think it was a solution looking for a problem. It's possibly not well known, but the system (at least as originally implemented) did not have a continuously variable range of speeds - only 5 or 6 discrete speeds were available, the figure depending on whether you were opening or closing the box. However I've always been intrigued as to how it worked from a gadgety point of view, and it's only recently that I sussed it out together with an engineer who is also a member of this forum (though there were still some loose ends which we've just left hanging for now). So if anyone is into heavy bedtime reading, maybe try this ..... http://www.pykett.org.uk/speedandgradation.htm CEP

Chris might well be right (#6). I have 50 degs in my head for some reason but have not recently looked at Clive Sidney's drawing. Sorry if I have confused things. It will obviously be best to peruse the real thing, which I haven't the time to do this morning. Innate also said: Very true. However Mr Sidney's useful drawing is of the whole console as well as of just the swell pedal. I once experienced the opposite problem - instead of my knees hitting the keybench, the pedal depressed one of the 'sharp' pedal keys when you closed it fully! Fancy leaving an organ in that state ... (it wasn't the work of what one could call a top-flight builder). CEP

The organ builder Clive Sidney drew up a detailed and beautifully-executed diagram of a complete console which he kindly sent me some years ago as a PDF file. I have also seen it crop up on the web elsewhere from time to time. However I would not feel able to send you my copy without his permission, so maybe you might contact him yourself at: http://www.tuningandrepair.com/profile-clive-sidney This is not his company website, which I think exists separately though I couldn't instantly find it just now, but the link given enables you to send him a message. It shows 50 degrees as the angular separation between the box open and box closed positions, plus other dimensions. As to the status of the so-called 'RCO standard' I'm tempted to ask "what's that then"? There's apparently nothing on their current website about it, nor has there been for years whenever I've looked. This is unlike the status of the AGO one, which was on their site recently when I checked. One well-known organ builder once told me that the dimensions of the mid-20th century HN&B console at Kensington Gore became a sort of de-facto standard subsequently, but he didn't take much notice of it! Maybe our host or other organ builder members would be able to comment somewhat more helpfully. It's a good question, if only because it keeps cropping up all the time. But if you remain stuck, I have some commercial swell pedals by Kimber Allen which I always use when building (electric action or digital) consoles, and I could give you the operating dimensions and angles of these if you like. Whether they conform to any standard I could not say, but they are of course very widely used in the craft. CEP

We used to have two cats, sisters. One of them promptly left the room whenever I started to play the piano, though she was unfazed by the (loudspeaker) organ in the house. Therefore, it could have been that my piano technique was less attractive to her ears than my organ technique. However her sister slumbered on, unperturbed by any of it. We later discovered she was almost deaf. CEP

That's very interesting, as longevity is, rightly, as much an issue in pipe organ technology as the technology itself. Some of us were discussing this only the other day on this forum in relation to 3D printing and whether this has a role to play in organ building. With electronics, 30 years is an ambitious target which is seldom met using consumer-grade technology. How many 30 year old computers still work, for example? Or hi-fi systems? Or, indeed, loudspeaker organs? (I'm not talking about whether they are up to the job today but simply whether they still work - the two issues are different). And if they don't work, can they be repaired? How long do the electronics modules in central heating boilers, washing machines, cars, etc survive before they need to be replaced? Consumer grade electronics is not designed nor intended to last that long. If it's of any interest, I addressed this in an article relevant to the pipe organ scenario here: http://www.pykett.org.uk/reliability.htm Organ builders are often accused of over-conservatism, but their caution is well founded. Customers expect their products to last not only for years but for decades, centuries even, in view of their up-front costs. Please note that I am speaking in general terms here, and am therefore emphatically not directing these remarks in any way at the Lord Mayor's Chapel organ in particular (which I have played). I am merely saying that it is a challenge to design and implement electronics which will have a high probablility of surviving for 30 years. In all cases where this is attempted, only time will tell because there are insufficient benchmarks and examples around from which to draw firm conclusions. This is quite unlike the tried and tested technology which has provided good service for centuries in other aspects of organ building. A modern digital system of any kind which fails, whether it be in an organ or not, can often only be resurrected by replacing rather than repairing it. That eventuality can occur unpredictably at any time, as we all know from everyday experience. None of this implies that the systems will not work. On the contrary, while they are in working order they can work very well indeed. The issues are for how long will they continue to work, and what can be done when or if they fail? CEP

Yep, the Granton organ (post #6) is pretty much like the one at Kimberley I described above although the stop list is different. The stop tab cancelling system is identical. I note the presence of a stop on each division derived from three pipes. They are given rather fancy names here (Musette and Schalmei) whereas I consider the names on the Kimberley instrument (Solo Synthetic) to have been more - what - honest? I wonder what the exact derivations are? My word, don't these little R&D jobs last well though. Built in the 1930s (Granton) and only overhauled once in the 1960s if the NPOR is to be taken at face value. It backs up what David said above (#3) that "the workmanship needed to be of the best". He's been proved right in this case by the looks of it. Many thanks, caskie, for this. CEP

That's a really impressive piece of cyber detective work to have dug that out! Although similar to the one I described, the console isn't exactly the same though. For instance, the black cancelling tabs aren't there for each stop key. That's hardly surprising though, given the length of time that has passed since I last played there. Other than that, it might still be the same organ in terms of its pipework. I've just found that the church has its own separate website, different to the Nottingham university one above, and it appears that the organ has had its day. Quote from the current parish magazine: "The organ is beyond economic repair and so we are looking to replace it. The current organ needs to be removed before the internal re-ordering and so the faculty is being processed." So many thanks for this lead - very interesting. CEP

I don't like starting new topics because often they have already been opened. However I can't find anything on this subject on the forum, so please bear with me. From time to time I used to come across some small extension organs by Rushworth and Dreaper. I say "used to" because they seem to have vanished now, probably because they are a rather old and dated mid-twentieth century product of the firm. Let me describe one such to see if it evokes any echoes from forum members. It used to be in Holy Trinity parish church, Kimberley, Nottinghamshire, on the way to 'D H Lawrence Country' at Eastwood and beyond there to Derbyshire, but there is nothing on the NPOR about it. It had a two manual detached console at the east end of the church with cancelling stop keys. The cancel feature was not like those of Compton, for example, which used second touch against a stronger spring. The R&D ones each had a small black plastic tab at the top which you touched to cancel the others in that division. There were two expression pedals because the whole instrument was enclosed in two boxes, apart possibly from some of the pedal pipes. However the stops on both divisions were drawn from the pipes in both boxes, theatre organ style, so the expression pedals did not have a one-to-one correspondence with the divisions. This could sometimes take you by surprise! The pipes were in two small but nicely designed cases placed at each corner of the west gallery. The whole thing was heavily extended but I can't recall how many ranks this particular one had. An interesting feature was the presence of two stops, one on each division, bearing the name 'Solo Synthetic'. The one on the swell was quieter than that on the great, but both were composed of 8 and 2 2/3 foot pitches, possibly with a quiet 4 foot constituent as well. They were quite useful. There was a 16 foot reed on the swell but it only went down to tenor C. I used to enjoy playing this organ, despite its several obvious limitations. It did, admittedly, benefit from a helpful acoustic in this case, and the separation of the console and pipework gave the player a sense of spaciousness which belied the relatively small building. I found it an attractive little thing and very comfortable to play, with a considerable tonal palette endowed by making the maximum possible use of the pipes available. It was not unlike the Compton Miniatura in concept and execution, though this particular one gave greater scope to the player if only because of its additional ranks. Did this range of instruments have a house name such as the Miniatura did with Compton? They were probably made in quite large numbers because the firm used to make a lot of similarly styled ones for MOD military chapels both here and abroad during the Cold War years. They also might have surfaced in larger crematoria and the like. Any thoughts, anyone? CEP

The printers are coming down in price rapidly. I haven't done an extensive survey but I keep my eye on the market, and one can now buy a DIY self-assembly printer kit from Velleman (a well-respected firm) for less than £500. However Henry Willis's remarks are important for the organ world. Today's consumer society exists because of a throw-away-and-buy-new culture, where the disposal and replacement cycle is only a few years at most and often less (look at computers and phones for example). But organs have to last for decades if they are to justify their up-front cost. Even items that look as though they will last for ever at first sight do not live up to their promise. Look at lever arm electromagnets for instance, as used to open pallets and operate stop keys in direct electric actions for example. What could possibly go wrong with them, one might ask. Yet after 20 years or so it's not unusual for them to seize up because the lubricant (typically colloidal graphite) used at the pivot thickens and clogs. So they stop working. They can be repaired, but at a cost. When there are hundreds in an organ, disconnecting and removing them, knocking out the pivot pins and relubricating and then putting them all back again, means that the labour costs can exceed replacement with new ones - but it's still expensive even then. Yes, organs are in a class of their own when it comes to the essential longevity issues which are so important. So 3D printing? It's got a long way to go before organ builders will be converted I reckon, and for good reasons which are in the interests of their customers. CEP

There's a gorgeous 16 foot French Horn on the Solo at Malvern Priory. One can even play chords low-ish in the compass. Rushworth's again. CEP

J F Wender provided a 5 1/3 manual quint on the Oberwerk of the small 'Bach' organ at Arnstadt c. 1700. There is no 16 foot manual stop so all it does is produce a sort of '16 foot beaty growl' when used low in the keyboard with one or more of the 8 foots. The effect is not unpleasant and quite distinctive, and it can be heard in some of the pieces (notably some of the Schubler CPs) recorded by Gottfried Preller on the instrument shortly after it was meticulously rebuilt by Hoffmann c. 2000. This begs some interesting questions. Since JSB himself tested and approved this organ while still just a teenager, before being appointed to the post, does this mean: a. He might have had a hand in drawing up the stop list with Wender? b. If so, did he make use of such effects when registering? (The stop list of the organ is also peculiar in other ways, having curiously incomplete choruses compared to some of the same period, together with a preponderance of unison colours). Such questions about the Arnstadt organ have long fascinated me. What are we to make of it? Could Friedrich Sprondel throw light on it perhaps? (Sorry, I know this thread is supposed to be about Ely ... ) CEP

There is a piece called Puck's Shadow by Richard Popplewell but it isn't in my 1982 Banks edition of the Hovingham Sketches. Don't know why - copyright issues maybe? It formed part of the original collection. Puck's Shadow is published separately by OUP. Two others have also been left out - Trio by Peter Hurford (Cramer) and Scherzetto by Arthur Wills (also Cramer). The complete book was recorded by Francis Jackson in York Minster on Gamut UT 7504. This info comes from the contents page of the Banks edition. CEP

Post #62 was very interesting, but mysterious in that I can't see a compelling rationale for including the quint 5 1/3. It's not part of the 8 foot harmonic series, only the 16 foot one, in which it is the twelfth - the third harmonic. Therefore, in a hypothetical situation in which were no 16 foot stop (which both the St Paul's and Metropolitan organs apparently do have), then there would have been some sort of logic in that the 8 and 5 1/3 stops would produce resultant beats at 16 foot pitch. (But even so, not actual acoustic energy at 16 foot. There is no energy in a beat). However, as there are real 16 foot stops available, providing an acoustic makeshift in addition as per the above seems the organ building equivalent of tautology. Nevertheless, if it sounds attractive, and Clarion Doublette says it does, then that's really all that matters. CEP

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Salut d'Amour by Elgar. The organ on which it's played in this link is rather different from that which innate describes, but it would fit almost any instrument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e7-OGM-AmU But then, I am a bit of an (unashamed) Elgar freak. CEP

As a physicist, I've written about Harmonics-type mixtures here previously, coming from the direction of the acoustics aspects which emphasise their out-of-tuneness against the rest of the fluework. However David is right to point out that their musical aspects are the more important, so (as with any other stop) if a particular example sounds right, then it is right. But would it not be better and more flexible to keep the mixtures as quint mixtures, but to also provide a separate Tierce or Seventeenth rank which can be drawn separately? One would also have to do the same with the 21st. Then one would approach the best of both worlds, provided that the Tierce/Seventeenth and the 21st were scaled and voiced with their use in combination with the mixture in mind, as well as in their own right as separate mutations. A top flight organ builder and voicer would surely have no difficulty in achieving this? The performer would then be able to construct her/his own Harmonics mixture if desired, or not. Yet the 17th and 21st, existing as separate stops, would also be available for building interesting synthetic sounds having a reedy and piquant character. CEP