A Second Chance

[pcnd5584]

A number of contributors have, at various times, mentioned certain English cathedral organs which they do not like - either because of the specification (and therefore, the voicing) or due to such things as an uncomfortable console or an unhelpful layout.

 

Now here is your chance to redesign these instruments in a way which is more practical - or in a style which you would consider to be more tonally appropriate.

 

Or, if you prefer, you can simply go back in time and rescue an organ from certain transformation. There are but three stipulations:

 

1) You must return to the point immediately before the rebuild which you consider to have spoiled the organ - but obviously, it cannot be an exact re-incarnation of its previous specification.

2) The upper-boards cannot be re-worked to increase the number of stops (save in the Pedal Organ); so, apart from the odd extra Solo reed, the departments must have the same number of speaking stops as before.

3) It should make sense (on paper, at least) as a viable musical instrument, equally suitable for choral accompaniment and solo playing.

 

With this in mind, I am going to start off with the organ of Gloucester Cathedral. My starting-point is 1969-70 - Ralph Downes is on holiday and so he missed the invitation to re-design the FHW/H&H instrument....

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Wood (Ext.) 32

Open Wood 16

Open Diapason (M) 16

Sub Bass 16

Quintatön (Solo) 16

Principal (M) 8

Violoncello (M) 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth (M) 4

MIxture (15-19-22) III

Contra Posaune (Ext.) 32

Ophicleide 16

Posaune 16

Clarion (Ext. Oph.) 8

Choir to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

 

CHOIR ORGAN

(Unenclosed)

 

Viola da Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Gemshorn (conical) 4

Suabe Flöte 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Octave 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Octave Quint 2 ²/₃

Super Octave 2

Sesquialtera (17-19-22) III

Furniture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion

Great Reeds on Pedal

Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedeckt 8

Salicional 8

Vox Angelica (AA) 8

Principal 4

Lieblich Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (22-26-29) III

Hautboy 8

Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

Contra Posaune 16

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Quintatön 16

Viole de Gambe 8

Viole Céleste (CC) 8

Flûte Harmonique 8

Flauto Traverso 4

Orchestral Bassoon 16

Corno di Bassetto 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

Tuba Mirabilis 8

Trompette Harmonique 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swell Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

[Guest Cynic]

A number of contributors have, at various times, mentioned certain English cathedral organs which they do not like - either because of the specification (and therefore, the voicing) or due to such things as an uncomfortable console or an unhelpful layout.

 

Now here is your chance to redesign these instruments in a way which is more practical - or in a style which you would consider to be more tonally apposite.

 

Or, if you prefer, you can simply go back in time and rescue an organ from certain transformation. There are but three stipulations.

 

1) You must return to the point immediately before the rebuild which you consider to have spoiled the organ - but obviously, it cannot be an exact re-incarnation of its previous specification.

2) The upper-boards cannot be re-worked to increase the number of stops (save in the Pedal Organ); so, apart from the odd extra Solo reed, the departments must have the same number of speaking stops as before.

3) It should make sense (on paper, at least) as a viable musical instrument, equally suitable for choral accompaniment and solo playing.

 

With this in mind, I am going to start off with the organ of Gloucester Cathedral. My starting-point is 1969-70 - and Ralph Downes is on holiday and so he missed the invitation to re-design the FHW/H&H instrument....

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Wood (Ext.) 32

Open Wood 16

Open Diapason 16

Sub Bass 16

Quintatön (Solo) 16

Principal (M) 8

Violoncello (M) 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth (M) 4

MIxture (15-19-22) III

Contra Posaune (Ext.) 32

Ophicleide 16

Posaune 16

Clarion (Ext. Oph.) 8

Choir to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

 

CHOIR ORGAN

(Unenclosed)

 

Viola da Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Gemshorn (conical) 4

Suabe Flöte 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I

Open Diapason II

Stopped Diapason

Octave 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Octave Quint 2 ²/₃

Super Octave 2

Sesquialtera (17-19-22) III

Furniture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion

Great Reeds on Pedal

Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedeckt 8

Salicional 8

Vox Angelica (AA) 8

Principal 4

Lieblich Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (22-26-29) III

Hautboy 8

Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

Contra Posaune 16

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Quintatön 16

Viole de Gambe 8

Viole Céleste (CC) 8

Orchestral Bassoon 16

Corno di Bassetto 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

Tuba Mirabilis 8

Trompete Harmonique 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swell Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

 

 

Wow!

Just think what a wonderful solo and accompanimental instrument it could have been!

[pcnd5584]

Wow!

Just think what a wonderful solo and accompanimental instrument it could have been!

 

Thank you!

 

One possible change would be an Echo Cornet (12-15-17-19-22) III-V on the Choir Organ, instead of the Mixture III.

 

I have also re-instated the Solo 8ft. and 4ft. flutes, which were omitted accidentally.

[emsgdh]

Thank you!

 

One possible change would be an Echo Cornet (12-15-17-19-22) III-V on the Choir Organ, instead of the Mixture III.

 

I have also re-instated the Solo 8ft. and 4ft. flutes, which were omitted accidentally.

 

This is such a marvelous subject/idea/dream - and what better instrument to re-visit than the poor Gloucester job !

[AJJ]

Wells Cathedral - Willis 1855/7 - if H & H had not got to it later - this would be on the screen - aimed at the Choir with something totally different in the Nave - Cavaille-Coll?, Hope Jones?.

 

PEDAL

Open Diapason 16 (W)

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth 4

Contra Fagotto 32

Bombarde 16 (W)

Trumpet 8

 

CHOIR ('Chair' case)

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Dulciana 8

Principal 4

Conical Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture 1 III

Corno di Bassetto 8

 

GREAT

Double Diapason 16

Open Diapason 8

Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2-2/3

Fifteenth 2

Sesquialtera 1-3/5 III

Mixture 1-1/3 IV

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

SWELL

Violin Diapason 8

Celeste 8

Chimney Flute 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

Echo Cornet 2-2/3 III

Fagotto 16

Trumpet 8

Hautboy 8

Clarion 4

 

SOLO (Extra chest - sorry PCND!!)

Grand Cornet 8 V (TC)

Trombone 8

 

 

Mechanical action plus Barker etc.

 

AJJ

[emsgdh]

Wells Cathedral - Willis 1855/7 - if H & H had not got to it later - this would be on the screen - aimed at the Choir with something totally different in the Nave - Cavaille-Coll?, Hope Jones?.

 

PEDAL

Open Diapason 16 (W)

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth 4

Contra Fagotto 32

Bombarde 16 (W)

Trumpet 8

 

CHOIR ('Chair' case)

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Dulciana 8

Principal 4

Conical Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture 1 III

Corno di Bassetto 8

 

GREAT

Double Diapason 16

Open Diapason 8

Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2-2/3

Fifteenth 2

Sesquialtera 1-3/5 III

Mixture 1-1/3 IV

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

SWELL

Violin Diapason 8

Celeste 8

Chimney Flute 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

Echo Cornet 2-2/3 III

Fagotto 16

Trumpet 8

Hautboy 8

Clarion 4

 

SOLO (Extra chest - sorry PCND!!)

Grand Cornet 8 V (TC)

Trombone 8

Mechanical action plus Barker etc.

 

AJJ

Now that's what I call WELL DONE. Bravo.

[AJJ]

Now that's what I call WELL DONE. Bravo.

 

Thanks - it's just occurred to me that it has come out rather like Chelmsford Cathedral 'with attitude' - not intentional but interesting in retrospect - coincidentally we were there at half term!

 

AJJ

[Ronald Shillingford]

St Asaph's Cathedral. Solo Box is in the wrong position as well as the fact this Organ speaks down the side of the aisle not very good tonally. St John's College Cambridge Clumsy sluggish actions in general including draw stops, this problem has never been addressed to this day sorry Manders. And Finally Arundel Cathedral no double reed on the Swell genrally lacking I like a Organ with some guts in it !

[jonadkins]

Apologies - double post

[jonadkins]

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Wood (Ext.) 32

Open Wood 16

Open Diapason (M) 16

Sub Bass 16

Quintatön (Solo) 16

Principal (M) 8

Violoncello (M) 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth (M) 4

MIxture (15-19-22) III

Contra Posaune (Ext.) 32

Ophicleide 16

Posaune 16

Clarion (Ext. Oph.) 8

Choir to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

 

CHOIR ORGAN

(Unenclosed)

 

Viola da Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Gemshorn (conical) 4

Suabe Flöte 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Octave 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Octave Quint 2 ²/₃

Super Octave 2

Sesquialtera (17-19-22) III

Furniture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion

Great Reeds on Pedal

Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedeckt 8

Salicional 8

Vox Angelica (AA) 8

Principal 4

Lieblich Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (22-26-29) III

Hautboy 8

Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

Contra Posaune 16

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Quintatön 16

Viole de Gambe 8

Viole Céleste (CC) 8

Flûte Harmonique 8

Flauto Traverso 4

Orchestral Bassoon 16

Corno di Bassetto 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

Tuba Mirabilis 8

Trompete Harmonique 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swell Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons[/font]

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, pcnd. I also have a problem with some of the tonal qualities of the instrument, not least the strings, which for a supposedly french-style instrument sound remarkably un-french and insipid.

[pcnd5584]

St Asaph's Cathedral. Solo Box is in the wrong position as well as the fact this Organ speaks down the side of the aisle not very good tonally. St John's College Cambridge Clumsy sluggish actions in general including draw stops, this problem has never been addressed to this day sorry Manders. And Finally Arundel Cathedral no double reed on the Swell genrally lacking I like a Organ with some guts in it !

 

Well, fair enough - but how about a scheme? This thread is an ideal opportunity for us to attempt to correct perceived errors of taste (or judgement) committed by various designers in days of yore.

[pcnd5584]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, pcnd. I also have a problem with some of the tonal qualities of the instrument, not least the strings, which for a supposedly french-style instrument sound remarkably un-french and insipid.

 

Thank you - I am glad that you like it. On reflection, I would be quite interested to hear how a rebuilt Gloucester Cathedral organ with the above scheme would sound in the building. I think that I would be very happy with this instrument.

 

I suspect that will be a surprise to Neil!

[AJJ]

Has anyone got details of the new Llandaff yet? - that would be interesting to see - especially in the light of what has been written and what is presumably being removed.

 

AJJ

[Ronald Shillingford]

Has anyone got details of the new Llandaff yet? - that would be interesting to see - especially in the light of what has been written and what is presumably being removed.

 

AJJ

 

 

 

Look on the Cathedrals website Richard Moorhouse give some details with regard to the scheme that will be built by Nicholsons. Long way off though not expected to be ready until 2010. Thank God someone has had the integrity to rid the Cathedral of that hideous looking case sited in the wrong position. I t was suggested that the case and console were listed pieces of architecture and could not be removed so I don't know how true that was.

[nfortin]

Thank you - I am glad that you like it. On reflection, I would be quite interested to hear how a rebuilt Gloucester Cathedral organ with the above scheme would sound in the building. I think that I would be very happy with this instrument.

 

I suspect that will be a surprise to Neil!

I'd refrained from commenting earlier, although I was very surprised that you chose Gloucester as an example. I'm prepared to accept that a willingness to discuss what might have been doesn't in itself mean that you are unhappy with whats actually there now, although I suspect we would both agree that a scheme along the lines of your suggestion above would almost certainly have resulted in an instrument more suited to accompanying the daily round of choral services.

 

I'm interested jonadkins comment "...the strings, which for a supposedly french-style instrument sound remarkably un-french and insipid". Nothing that I've read about the HNB rebuild suggests that it was intended to produce a french-style instrument. Obviously the alterations made as a leaving present to David Briggs are a different matter. The strings are rather insipid, and certainly not at all french in character, but are also quite etherial in that accoustic.

[Ian Ball]

I'd refrained from commenting earlier, although I was very surprised that you chose Gloucester as an example. I'm prepared to accept that a willingness to discuss what might have been doesn't in itself mean that you are unhappy with whats actually there now, although I suspect we would both agree that a scheme along the lines of your suggestion above would almost certainly have resulted in an instrument more suited to accompanying the daily round of choral services.

 

I'm interested jonadkins comment "...the strings, which for a supposedly french-style instrument sound remarkably un-french and insipid". Nothing that I've read about the HNB rebuild suggests that it was intended to produce a french-style instrument. Obviously the alterations made as a leaving present to David Briggs are a different matter. The strings are rather insipid, and certainly not at all french in character, but are also quite etherial in that accoustic.

I too have been sitting on my hands... but wish to add two points: those who have lived with the Gloucester organ on a daily basis love the strings. I have always found them ravishing and, box open, certainly not 'insipid' as I understand that word. They have a real presence in the building and blend far better with boys' voices than keen gambas; all the more so when used with the useful new sub octave coupler. Secondly, there's nothing about the pedal mutations to suggest that they were a specifically pro-French addition. The Notre-Dame examples obviously have a high profile, but they are also prolific in Germany and elsewhere. The priority was to find a cost-effective way to add more gravitas, colour and definition to the pedal chorus, rather than to ape any particular style of organ building.

[AJJ]

Here's one that has been done for us already! 'Not sure whether this also counts as 'Post Romantic' - the spec. gives the impression that it could sound quite fun - the casework less impressive maybe?

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

Here's one that has been done for us already! 'Not sure whether this also counts as 'Post Romantic' - the spec. gives the impression that it could sound quite fun - the casework less impressive maybe?

 

AJJ

 

Post-romantic it is not, but quite interesting indeed.

Would the deep mutation ranks be back in England ?

("Double Quint" and "Double Tierce" are very well-found

names, that fit in the traditionnal english stop nomenclature).

 

Pierre

[Ian Ball]

it could sound quite fun - the casework less impressive maybe?

 

AJJ

Yes, it's a shame the original exciting case design had to be changed

[Ian Ball]

Back to Gloucester...

 

“More suited” - what does this mean? Why do some people assume that a style of accompanying Anglican cathedral liturgies that became the norm by the middle of the last century is the only valid aesthetic? The traditional Walmisley-to-Howells chunk of repertoire represents only a [small] proportion of many cathedral choirs’ libraries these days. The Gloucester organ is arguably better “suited” for everything other than Victorian/Edwardian music than a typical Willis/Harrison.

 

As for the intended style of the organ, surely the priority for Ralph Downes and John Sanders, once the options had been narrowed down, was to rediscover the Dallam/Harris organ and to design an organ which was ‘true’ to the stunning but tiny Carolingian case (hence a certain Franco-Flemish flavour perhaps). At least certain compromises were made; we could have ended up with this: Jesus, Oxford - an instrument of integrity and unity, but arguably even less "suited" to a cathedral role.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"we could have ended up with this: Jesus, Oxford"

(Quote)

 

I would have voted for it 10 times -in another location in the Cathedral,

while keeping the post-romantic main organ as Howells played it-.

 

Pierre

[cornetdeschats]

One thing I'd really like to know from Organists with experience of the Gloucester instrument is whether they are equally conscious of pedal noise emanating from the North side of the pulpitum screen. Looking at the Downes article on JStor, in 1973 form only the Bishop Open Wood ('Flute!') was put in that position, for obvious reasons of space. Perhaps the situation is made more obvious by the new material in the screen, the mutations and whatnot. I was listening to a bit of Hindemith I think, with a very long pedal point, and was really shocked how obvious it was, from the Quire, that the 16' was well outside the case.

 

Is this just a result of knowing where stuff is? I've never noticed a similar effect at Kings Cambo.

[pcnd5584]

One thing I'd really like to know from Organists with experience of the Gloucester instrument is whether they are equally conscious of pedal noise emanating from the North side of the pulpitum screen. Looking at the Downes article on JStor, in 1973 form only the Bishop Open Wood ('Flute!') was put in that position, for obvious reasons of space. Perhaps the situation is made more obvious by the new material in the screen, the mutations and whatnot. I was listening to a bit of Hindemith I think, with a very long pedal point, and was really shocked how obvious it was, from the Quire, that the 16' was well outside the case.

 

Is this just a result of knowing where stuff is? I've never noticed a similar effect at Kings Cambo.

 

To an extent.

 

However, the fact that the C side of the Swell Organ is louder than the C# side*, I find a little more disconcerting. That aside, most of us are used to playing whilst hearing odd parts of an instrument emanate from strange places, so it is not a particular problem at the console.

 

 

 

* Or possibly the other way around - I cannot now recall.

[pcnd5584]

I too have been sitting on my hands... but wish to add two points: those who have lived with the Gloucester organ on a daily basis love the strings. I have always found them ravishing and, box open, certainly not 'insipid' as I understand that word. They have a real presence in the building and blend far better with boys' voices than keen gambas; all the more so when used with the useful new sub octave coupler.

 

They are certainly pleasant; however, using the Sumsion/Elgar recording and the (existing) FHW examples on the Swell Organ at Exeter Cathedral as comparisons, I suspect that the old Swell strings were also both beautiful and restful! It is also worth noting that the old organ possessed a choice of strings, each with a companion undulant (there was also a Viola da Gamba at 8ft. on the Choir Organ).

 

Secondly, there's nothing about the pedal mutations to suggest that they were a specifically pro-French addition. The Notre-Dame examples obviously have a high profile, but they are also prolific in Germany and elsewhere. The priority was to find a cost-effective way to add more gravitas, colour and definition to the pedal chorus, rather than to ape any particular style of organ building.

 

Hmmm.... I think that this may be stretching credibility a little, Ian! DJB was very enamoured of those at Nötre-Dame de Paris; he often talked about how effective they were/are - and how PC used them in preference to the 32ft. Principal. There are certainly many examples around, particularly in Germany, the U.S. and a few in the U.K. (although here often with one or two other ranks - or derived, as in the Compton 'Harmonics of 32ft.', etc). I take your point that it was necessary to find an acceptable way of providing gravitas, without incurring a bill for £30,000 just for twelve pipes - plus the expense of hauling them up into place in the triforium again! However, I think that it is not unreasonable to conclude that David was impressed with the Pédale mutations at N.-D. and so wished to install something similar at Gloucester.

 

For the record, I started this thread as a little light relief - not to have a go at any particular instrument. I love the Gloucester organ and will happily defend its effectiveness in many ways. This said, I do not consider it to be the ideal organ for this building, any more than I did its predecessor. I think that the division I [would] miss most is the old Solo Organ. In any case, Ralph Downes was a little disingenuous when he cited the need to keep the whole instrument together as a reason for dispensing with such things as a full-length Pedal Double Open Wood 32ft. He neglected to mention that the Pedal Sub Bass was to be retained (inverted) in the north well of the screen - whilst only briefly alluding to the fact that the old Bishop monsters ('Flute 16ft.') were also to be kept in situ - outside of the case. Since the sensitive acoustic of the building gave the illusion that the old 32ft. stop was near the rest of the instrument, I cannot see why he could not have retained this vital stop - particularly since the 'new' organ arrived with a couple of fairly severe problems (for example, the lack of a true pianissimo in the Swell Organ* and the fact that one side of this division sounds louder at the console than the other).

 

 

 

* To be honest, his remedy for this was at best make-shift; whilst it may have achieved the desired effect, it was somewhat ad hoc. I would also disagree with his assessment of the interior volume of the Swell organ as 'excessive' and 'over-resonant'. I can think of many organs of a comparable size with considerably larger Swell boxes.

[James Goldrick]

They are certainly pleasant; however, using the Sumsion/Elgar recording and the (existing) FHW examples on the Swell Organ at Exeter Cathedral as comparisons, I suspect that the old Swell strings were also both beautiful and restful! It is also worth noting that the old organ possessed a choice of strings, each with a companion undulant (there was also a Viola da Gamba at 8ft. on the Choir Organ).

 

You might be interested to know that the H&H Solo strings from Gloucester found their way into the Solo Division of St John's Cathedral Brisbane, when it was rebuilt by HNB (Aust.) in 1971. They are nicknamed the 'Howells Strings' of course and they are absolutely stunning. The last recital I heard there in October included Vierne's Berceuse where they created a magical effect. (It takes a lot to make this piece send shivers down my spine)

Unfortunately the rest of the organ did not fair so well in the typical 1970's rebuild - It is a shame to see (and hear) the enormous 1909 Norman & Beard Pedal Trombone languishing on about 4 inches of wind. The Tuba was recently knocked back up to 18 inches and sounds excellent. I eagerly await the day that the entire organ can be returned to it's Edwardian splendour, particularly now that the nave of this magnificent cathedral has been completed.

Some pics are here: St John's Cathedral, Brisbane (OHTA)

 

JG