WE THE JURY

[MusingMuso]

What I find interesting, is that pianists, in the fugue at least, seem to relish the melodic shape of the subject, whereas organists just all seem to get off on the rhythm, resulting in lots of fast performances commented on by others. It was only listening to the piano performances that I realised how incredibly beautiful were Bach's inherent harmonic tensions within the fugue- something which the pianists (especially old Percy) really seem to bring out. Why is that? And why is it that organists seem to think that it is acceptable, as in the case of MM's "For once, i am speechless", Matteo Imbruno, to play elaborate counterpoint in what sounds like a 7-second echo? I have to say I am speechless too.

 

 

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I wish we culd all trot off to Groningen to hear the restored Schnitger (sound) at the Martinikerk live.

 

A veritable sea of resonance, and yet, with the organ more or less at one end of the church, I trod very quietly to the far west of the church.

 

Guess what?

 

I could hear every strand of Bach's counterpoint perfectly, and follow it in fine detail.

 

Even though I am normally prepared to accept some degree of acoustic blur, I was really quite astonished by this, but even before I went into the church, it was an experiment I really wanted to try out in the flesh.

 

I don't think I would find quite the same thing at Liverpool; either at both of the cathedrals or at St.George's Hall.

 

As I do not know the organ at Zupthen, and had to look up where it was, I can't really comment about how it sounds in the church.

 

The bit about rhythm is interesting....a whole new subject potentially.

 

In the meantime, while I have a think about this, perhaps we should all ask ourselves a question.

 

How well would a pianist, and then an organist, perform Bach on a harpsichord?

 

Im my estimation, a pianist would be dead in the water after just a few bars; the principal means of expression (dynamics)taken away from them.

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Here are three interesting links which demonstrate something of the Berlin school, the transcriptions of Bach by Carl Tausig for piano, as well as those of his rival, Busoni.

 

 

 

 

The following link takes us to an historic recording of Alfred Sittard. BWV565 is the 9th on the list of works, which should be clicked on.

 

http://ihorc.blogspot.com/search/label/Alfred%20Sittard

 

I also checked out the details of how this travelled to America, and as expected, the name Middelschulte pops up in Chicago, where the pianist Busoni visited and considered Middelschulte a great contrapuntalist, along with Bernhard Zeihn who had a fanatical interest in all things contrapuntal; even showing Busoni how the four fugal themes of Bach's final unfinished "Contrapunctus Fugue" could be combined.

 

This enabled Busoni to complete the fugue for posterity.

 

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album....album_id=128965

 

The above link is amazing; the sound clips including Middelschulte's re-working of the D Minor BWV565 arranged for piano and organ!!!

 

It all makes sense of this, I think:-

 

 

MM

[sprondel]

Pretty much devoid of everything except the right notes.

... as well as an entirely unbroken rhythmic drive at comparably high speed, a flawless legato, and a remarkably simple registration, all resulting in an impressive arch of tension, leading from bar one to the dramatic, but still tastefully performed penultimative ritardando, fermata, and final ritardando. This, to my ear, definitely is a strength of this style of interpretation. It's neither Ootmerssen nor Koopman. But it is still great playing, in the way Germani or

did it.

 

Sorry, I like it. It is perfect and touching in its own way, as well as Heifetz's, Cortot's or Rachmaninov's performances are.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[ross cobb]

Pretty much devoid of everything except the right notes.

 

 

Have to say I agree with you sadly. Have always been disappointed with Dupre's recordings, he seems to make mistakes a plenty, and is rather dull. Is this heresy? Will I never be allowed to return to St Sulpice?

Compared to, say, Sir George Thalben Ball, playing at the height of his powers at that time, (and actually for a good many years afterwards!) poor old Marcel is beaten to a pulp! The 'greatest concert organist of the 20th century' doesn't seem to sparkle much on disc. Am I missing something?

[ross cobb]

... as well as an entirely unbroken rhythmic drive at comparably high speed, a flawless legato, and a remarkably simple registration, all resulting in an impressive arch of tension, leading from bar one to the dramatic, but still tastefully performed penultimative ritardando, fermata, and final ritardando. This, to my ear, definitely is a strength of this style of interpretation. It's neither Ootmerssen nor Koopman. But it is still great playing, in the way Germani or

did it.

 

Sorry, I like it. It is perfect and touching in its own way, as well as Heifetz's, Cortot's or Rachmaninov's performances are.

 

Best,

Friedrich

 

this is touching, but also rather funny, as we're talking about JSB on the piano

 

 

(I don't think he's playing infallibly, or maybe he's not practicing ex cathedra. Love that last note!

[mjgrieveson]

... as well as an entirely unbroken rhythmic drive at comparably high speed, a flawless legato, and a remarkably simple registration, all resulting in an impressive arch of tension, leading from bar one to the dramatic, but still tastefully performed penultimative ritardando, fermata, and final ritardando. This, to my ear, definitely is a strength of this style of interpretation. It's neither Ootmerssen nor Koopman. But it is still great playing, in the way Germani or

did it.

 

Sorry, I like it. It is perfect and touching in its own way, as well as Heifetz's, Cortot's or Rachmaninov's performances are.

 

Best,

Friedrich

 

I like it, too. It's restrained and dignified and reminds me of a well-delivered Bible reading.

 

I think the prelude was better than the fugue, which seemed to become a little muddy.

[Vox Humana]

Sorry, I like it. It is perfect and touching in its own way, as well as Heifetz's, Cortot's or Rachmaninov's performances are.

 

I like it, too. It's restrained and dignified and reminds me of a well-delivered Bible reading.

Well, I was genuinely pleased to read these responses. Although to me the Dupré performance seems the epitome of sewing-machine playing (the uninteresting organ tone doesn't help either), I am very far from objecting to performances in strict time. When I was a student the brightest of the young sparks was Simon Preston. I admired his style very much indeed. The thing that struck me most was that everything he played was always played in absolutely strict time. This was as true whether he was playing Bach or Messiaen (though it may have been different in Romantic music; I can't recall). But never once did I hear anyone complain about this. Why not? Because, somehow, despite its stricness, his playing was never mechanical or dull; it was always full of interest and musicianship.

[MusingMuso]

Well, I was genuinely pleased to read these responses. Although to me the Dupré performance seems the epitome of sewing-machine playing (the uninteresting organ tone doesn't help either), I am very far from objecting to performances in strict time. When I was a student the brightest of the young sparks was Simon Preston. I admired his style very much indeed. The thing that struck me most was that everything he played was always played in absolutely strict time. This was as true whether he was playing Bach or Messiaen (though it may have been different in Romantic music; I can't recall). But never once did I hear anyone complain about this. Why not? Because, somehow, despite its stricness, his playing was never mechanical or dull; it was always full of interest and musicianship.

 

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Going back to the original subject of the P & F in A minor and our phantom contestants, I came across the recording made by E. Power-Biggs; so highly regarded here and across the pond.

 

You may recall that I mentioned a performance in Holland, where the Prelude started almost teasingly on a quiet flute combination, with just enough elasticity in the timing to make it all very interesting and a wee bit mysterious. Then all hell broke loose as the pedal dominant crashed in and the pleno took up the chase.

 

Well, having rediscovered the E Power Biggs recording from the Busch-Reisenger hall at Harvard, this is exactly what he does and I had forgotten this.

 

It makes for wonderful musical drama, and if I can re-discover the link to the track, I'll post it later.

 

MM

[biggestelk]

The best I've heard was John Scott here: http://nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/StThomasEpisGal.html

It was on YouTube but I can't find it anymore, but the prelude was a slowish, measured, almost but not quite rubato on clear soft flutes and exquiste expression.

The fugue was clean and clear (I still can never phrase the subject correctly!) and all performed from memory.

I had the great pleasure of being in NYC and managed to get up to the console for a quick peek through the very plesant and helpful Kevin Kwan.

I hope this performance re-appears, because I think a large number of you musically intelligent people would also find it an amazing breath of fresh air!

(My two-cents!)

Oliver.

[MusingMuso]

=======================

 

 

Going back to the original subject of the P & F in A minor and our phantom contestants, I came across the recording made by E. Power-Biggs; so highly regarded here and across the pond.

 

You may recall that I mentioned a performance in Holland, where the Prelude started almost teasingly on a quiet flute combination, with just enough elasticity in the timing to make it all very interesting and a wee bit mysterious. Then all hell broke loose as the pedal dominant crashed in and the pleno took up the chase.

 

Well, having rediscovered the E Power Biggs recording from the Busch-Reisenger hall at Harvard, this is exactly what he does and I had forgotten this.

 

It makes for wonderful musical drama, and if I can re-discover the link to the track, I'll post it later.

 

MM

 

 

====================

 

 

It took a while, but I've found the link I was looking for.

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/listings/2006/0614/

 

E Power-Biggs really was a superb Bach performer and a considerable scholar.

 

MM

[biggestelk]

Thanks for that.

That program's made my Christmas!

Oliver.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Weingarten, and J. Gabler, are by far closer to the region Bach lived in

than anywhere else towards the north.

 

And it shows here:

 

 

Note how the tierce ranks enhance the lisibility; without them, the Pedal would

upset the balance.