bazuin

'The truth is, our traditional accompaniments require flexible use of the swellbox, probably more than the average RH solo in a Widor or Vierne Smphony.' But there is a very significant question of chicken vs egg here, the idea of tradition is perhaps something of a red herring. I've quoted John Sutton here before complaining about organists who couldn't play 6 verses of the psalm without changing registration. The 'tradition' as I assume (perhaps wrongly) cynic refers to it probably has musical aesthetics rooted no earlier than, let's say, 1910, and even then I suspect organists in 1910 might have found the extent to which the gadgets are worked now somewhat surprising. The question of conservation is more important than that of organist's wishes in my view (and history has taught us this literally thousands of times). Marcel Dupre's preservation of the original console equipment at Sulpice should be an example for us all. He was a great admirer of American consoles after all. Historic organs always give us glances into performance practices of the past, and this even extends to surviving trigger swells on little Victorian organs in England. Greetings Bazuin

I would like to thank Cynic and MM for their nice posts. "Do you recall the lengthy sleuthing I undertook for Herr Kropft re: Steinkerken?" Possibly before my time on this forum. Sounds very interesting. "I confess that I don't know a lot about Charles Fisk or his research" There is a wonderful publication in his honour from the Westfield Center including both essays by him and in honour of him. Unfortunately I have never been able to obtain a copy for myself, and I fear it is now out of print. "So far so good, but in the midst of all this was Ralph Downes, who had done his own research and even involved himself in practical organ-building and pipe-voicing at the Peabody Institute. (Mander Organs got involved in the eventual restoration of this instrument, I believe). Anyway, whatever the details, Downes left the organ in a bit of a mess and fled back to the UK, where his influence gave rise to the organ of the Festival Hall, and of course, that at the Brompton Oratory. That is the most important link, but of course," OK, your story is entirely correct as far as I have read different accounts of it (Ambronsino, Owen, Whitney, Downes) but was Downes really any more progressive than Donald Harrison? Can anyone comment for instance on whether the 1949 A-S organ for Boston Symphony Hall was any less ' progressive' than the RFH organ of 5 years later? Biggs, through his championing of historic organs, his ordering and championing of the Flentrop, and his promotion of Fisk's early work was surely far more progressive and more influential in the organ reform movement as a whole than Downes? Downes took much longer to embrace mechanical action for example. Its worth noting Fisk's fascination with the 'eclectic' organ, as seen in the House of Hope organ in Minnesota, and the organ in Dallas (which he began designing before he died although it wasn't completed until 1992). To take this line of thought to its obvious conclusion (the large eclectic organs built by Fisk's disciples, Brombaugh and his disciples etc), surely the Brits in America were ultimately far more influential than the Brits in Britain? 'Of course, the UK's equivalent to the Flentrop at Harvard, had to be the gorgeous Thomas Frobenius organ at Oxford, which still inspires organists to this day. My dates are probably all over the place, so I will refrain from guessing the sequence of events which followed, but it is not insignifcant that Oxford also gained the organ of New College, built by ex-Compton men with the financial backing of Hugh Forsyth-Grant of whisky fame.' But isn't it a little odd that neither organ (and especially the Frobenius) didn't spawn a 'normal' reform movement in the UK? "but I suspect that the one company who really embraced all things "reform minded" had to be Goetze & Gwynne, who have worked to a very high standard indeed." I guess William Drake should also be mentioned here. The only organ I've played by him was excellent (Grosvenor Chapel). 'I suspect, that if one were to travel to New York, and St Ignatius Loyola in particular, you would find an organ which amply demonstrates that our hosts are more than capable of building in "the old ways," but at the same time, they succeeded in building something of an eclectic masterpiece at the same time, which has received the best reviews.' I have no doubt of the quality of that organ, which is obviously first-rate. I am a little at a loss to understand where it fits into the world-wide organ building trends of our time (my problem entirely), is it a modernist organ? (tonally it seems a little bit in that direction), is it a result of the re-awakened interest in 19th century organ building (the obvious C-C influences), is it indeed, excepting the suspended (!) action, really a product of the reform movement? Probably its all of these things to some extent, a unique one-off, even in the oeuvre of Mander I would politely suggest. Cynic wrote: ' I'm afraid I use 'purist' in a pejorative way, that is to say, it might cover players who while performing in a deadly dull manner will insist that their performance is per se better, because they have used historic fingering or some such academic advance - leaving the question of musical projection aside.' I think though that the kind of application of scholarship for its own end (mostly mis-understood) is, in Western Europe and good chunks of the US, now a thing of the past? Can cynic cite some examples of dogma abusing scholarship even now? The question about trigger swell is an interesting one! I think the reversal of the change to a balanced swell (which apparently almost always has unfortunate technical implications) is perhaps too zealously promoted by BIOS, especially if the organ has had a balanced swell for the large majority of its life. On the other hand, if the original trigger swell survives, it would be unfortunate to replace it. Last weekend I visited St Sulpice and admired, at close quarters, Sophie-Veronique Cauchefer-Choplin's manipulation of Cavaille-Coll's....trigger swell. Noel Mander's and Power Biggs's actions at Great Packington were unfortunate, and wouldnt be allowed now anywhere in Europe I think. I have to say I know nothing about Hunstanton Hall's organ or the circumstances there. Having a historic organ and refusing to make it playable is simply irresponsible, and I know of no other place in the world where such a course of action has been, or would be, applied. Greetings and thanks again Bazuin

Cynic wrote "I can strongly recommend a book on all this: All the stops - Craig R.Whitney (Public Affairs, New York) ISBN 1-58648-262-9 which is a most readable and comprehensive account. " I can also recommend this book, its very well written and takes a rather objective view of both Fox and Biggs. "Actually, E. Power Biggs was less of a purist and more of a musician, and (from time to time) Virgil Fox gave evidence of consummate musicianship, so the two of them (aside from their markedly different characters) had quite a bit in common. They both flew the flag for great music and the pipe organ." What is a purist? I always find the word somewhat cynical (aha!). The point about Power Biggs is that he was instinctively fascinated about the relationship between specific literature and specific instruments (more than almost anyone in Europe at the time), even if he was too early to make the leap into old playing techniques. He was a pioneer of his generation! MM wrote "It was largely thanks to American based scholarship and research that the organ-reform movement gained a firm foothold in the UK,...." I don't understand anything of this comment, when did American based scholarship and research have any influence in the UK? Craig Whitney's excellent book describes in detail the wonderful pioneering work (encouraged by Biggs incidentally) done by Charles Fisk. The UK has never had anyone whose starting-point, way of working, or organs, were as advanced (along the reform-route) or as developed as Fisk's. (The organs his company build now have departed somewhat from Fisk's aesthetics, this is not intended to imply criticism on my part). Greetings Bazuin

"I think that I would have to nominate "French Organ Music" recorded by E Power Biggs sometime in the 1960's (or possibly very early 70's) on the utterly un-French instrument of St George's Church, New York (a late 1950's Moller designed by Ernest White which even by 1960's neo-baroque standards was a real screecher)." I am going to defend this recording briefly, although the organ seems undeniably nasty. The point of Biggs's recordings there was to show off the new recording technology which allowed the listener to experience the sound from different directions (the organ is scattered around the church I think). Biggs played annual Christmas concerts in St George's to huge audiences. My memory is that the Dupre is very well played, this afternoon I will dig out my copy to listen again. " [*]Widor, Symphony Nr. 8, Odile Pierre at Notre-Dame de la Dalbade, Toulouse. The miking of this 1987 Motette recording is a disaster. It gave me the impression that Puget's instruments are shreakier than those of <insert your most abhorred organ builder here>. Fortunately, subsequent recordings (such as part of Tournemire's Orgue Mystique by Georges Delvallée) showed this beautiful instrument in a much better light." I've played this organ, it is indeed wonderful, though in very poor condition. The acoustic is much better than in St Sernin. The organ was 100 years old in 1888 I think and was opened by Widor, hence its choice for that recording. There's something funny about all those Motette Widor recordings, which sound like they're coming down a railway tunnel. And I'm no fan of Odile Pierre. Greetings Bazuin

"I must confess that I don't really know much about Power Biggs, I'll have to 'google' him!" Or, better still, read Barbara Owen's biography of him, its excellent. I'm a long-time admirer of Biggs, he was recording historic organs in Europe at a time when even the best European organists were still recording their Bach on Marcussens... Of all his recordings his Mozart LP recorded in the Bavo in Haarlem right after the organ was 'changed' remains my favourite. His recordings of the Poulenc Concerto (Ormandy/Philadelphia Orch) and the Copland Symphony (NY Phil under Bernstein I think) come in a close second. Greetings Bazuin

"Berceuse à la mémoire de Louis Vierne" transcribed by Frédéric Blanc (impro for Philips May 1973) This is wonderful, but Blanc's transcription of what Cochereau did is over-simplified and the copy I have came with a substantial list of errata. It's also published by Chantraine. Worth buying, then listening to David Briggs's Truro recording (Priory) and altering the score accordingly, the result is much more beautiful I think. Of course its impossible to transcribe literally what PC did, but Briggs's (and I suspect Filsell's) transcriptions are at least more detailed than those of Blanc or of François Lombard. I have doctored one of the latter's PC transcriptions as well; it was notated entirely in 4/4 whereas Cochereau's original was far freer. Greetings Bazuin

"Right next to it on my shelves was my copy of English Organ Music 1690 -1790 (CBS 61495) by Piet Kiel Jr mentioned in an earlier post. I have always assumed that the surname was a misprint for Kee which slipped by the proof reader - the bigger the type the easier it is not to notice and the more embarrassing when somebody else does !! Does anyone actually know ? " Piet Kiel jnr is indeed a completely different person from Piet Kee. I have a colleague who has a certificate from an organ competition he took part in as a child on his wall, which carries the signature of Mr Kiel jnr. He was born in 1937 (10 years younger than Piet Kee!). I think he is primarily known for conducting choirs. Greetings Bazuin

"He finished his programme with the partita on 'Nun freut euch' by Lionel Rogg." Maybe its nice to mention that this was written for Gordon Stewart, who was a student of Lionel Rogg in Geneva. Bazuin

"My first organ LP was King of Instruments – EMI must have sold quite a few of those!" My dad had this, I was hooked at the age of about 7. Also has the Jackson/Cocker on it. And Lionel Rogg playing BuxWV 149 at the Royal Festival Hall, this really fascinated me I think. "Nicolas Kynaston’s recording of Carillon de Westminster." ..is one of the slowest recordings I think but it is extraordinary. My dad also had one of the Kynaston LPs mentioned before (Royal Albert Hall), which I also listented to a lot. Nice that the 'old' Alkmaar recordings have been mentioned a lot. I have several of the Walcha LPs and also the Germani recording mentioned. I suspect FG wasn't so comfortable playing that organ! I remember the Fugues have a tendency to get faster. My copy is in quite poor condition, unfortunately. There is now an organ-lover in Alkmaar who is putting together an entire collection of all the commerical recordings of the organs in the Grote Kerk. There is a lot of material, much of it unknown. There is even an LP made by an organist called Piet Kiel jnr of only English Voluntaries, (early 1970s I think). Andrea Marcon told me that he was obsessed with Walcha's Alkmaar recordings as a child in Italy, it was his dream to play the organ in Alkmaar. Now he plays there quite often. Bazuin

Dear members and moderators I would like to apologise should any of my comments in this thread have been taken personally by anyone involved either directly or indirectly with this discussion. I have tried throughout this discussion to keep the discussion away from petty comments, however, clearly the moderator felt that that this could have been read in an offensive way. I believe the discussion about the artistic level of much organ building in the UK is long over-due and I'm clearly not alone in this. However, none of my comments were intended to question the professional integrity (which I have no reason to question!) of anyone either actively involved in this forum or otherwise. I have no reason, whatever, nor was it my intention to indulge in "deplorable professional jealousy". Greetings Bazuin

Goede middag allemaal [Deleted by moderator] I have no doubt that his former organ was ill-suited to its job and was purchased more from a stylistically idealistic point of view with insufficient understanding of its liturgical role. This has NOTHING to do with quality. [Deleted by moderator] Southwell in short: 1) The organ only serves the (fairly small) quire of the church, the nave is, acoustically, a separate entity due to the scale of the space under the tower. The organ does not have to accompany the congregation in the Nave, there is another organ to do that. Its primary purpose is to accompany the choir. So, why 50+ stops, 2 sets of strings, 4 manuals, fake 32s, a mounted cornet etc? Could it be, to quote Stephen Bicknell yet again, [Deleted by moderator] The organ could have had 25 stops, far more colour, a proper winding system, and still not have broken the bank.... 2) Southwell were obliged to preserve the case of Mr Caroë, but as soon as you see the scale of the case you know that its far too small for 50+stops. Paul Hale and Nicholson knew this too, so they built an organ with no coupler chassis and no winding system, and shoehorned as many pipes into the case as possible. The result is a sound which is (sometimes unpleasantly) loud but, predicatably, has no breadth whatever. 3) The acoustical situation at Southwell is challenging, less than 2 seconds of audible decay time, and no bass response whatever. The organ needed to focus on its unison and sub-unison material (8' colour is, also, quite important to liturgical accompaniment in the UK?). Above a certain pitch the sound is intolerable. So the mixtures up to 29, 33 are quite ridiculous and SCREAM through the room. Predictably the organ has no 16' mixture which would have worked well in the circumstances. [Deleted by moderator] For the record, I've met Paul Hale a number of times, I find him kind, articulate and charming. I suspect he has achieved wonderful things with his choir at Southwell, they make broadcasts etc, which in such a rural setting seems to me a huge achievement. [Deleted by moderator] "He does not have to like every organ but if he/she starts to list all those of which he/she does not approve, maybe s/he'll need a whole column because apparently there is hardly one in the UK that s/he finds any merit in!" I ADORE: St George's Cullercoats, Kelvingrove Art Gallery in Glasgow, St Stephen's in Edinburgh, Christ Church Port Sunlight, many other small Father Willis and Lewis organs I had the possibility to play. I know I would adore Lincoln, Truro, Southwark Cathedrals if I had the chance to hear them, (I'm smitten with the recordings). The most admired Romantic organ in the province of North Holland is a Nicholson organ from the 1880s in Schagen, 3 manuals, from a church in Worcester. It is utterly spellbinding. What do all these BRITISH organs have in common? The stamp of an organ builder with high artistic values building preserved to teach us, and future generations. Southwell does not represent a comparable artistic level to any of these organs. The beauty of a forum like this is that while we don't have to agree, we can at least speak our minds and relay our experiences. [Deleted by moderator] Greetings Bazuin

"Why are we still talking about eccentric examples from the 1960s, like Blackburn and Gloucester? Organs made of poor quality materials, rather eccentric tonal schemes and somewhat odd tonal finishing standards? The bottom line is that they were build down to a (cheap) price. The imagination, ideals, experimentation and excitement are there but the quality and satisfaction of a beautiful object are missing. What about citing more relevant recent work, like William Drake and Robert Shaftoe?" YES YES YES YES YES!!! "Maybe we can add H&H to this list as well, as their work at Twyford was at a similar level - at least, Stephen Bicknell thought so. These are England's parallels to the high end of the market, like Taylor & Boody, Henk van Eeken, Aubertin, Richard Fowkes & Co, etc" They're not there yet, but certainly Drake is a little bit in that direction. "In the middle of the road, we've got people like Nicholson, Robert Jennings (yes, frankly...) and Ken Tickell - their work is very different and is more the next generation from people like GDB, Peter Collins and Nigel Church, etc. They're competent, good quality organs on whole which should last the test of time in most cases but I find these organs generally anodyne - capable, competent, versatile and efficient but their playing experiences are generally just of an efficient instrument with no character - everything does what it says on tin but don't expect to be bowled over by anything and I often find some annoying features I wish they'd get right. They just come across as effective machines for the activities in the church or hall in which they sit." Precisely! This is the kind of organ building which panders to the way of commissioning an organ currently favoured in the UK: 1) Draw up a stoplist (preferably with a tuba, 32's and a mounted Cornet even if the church seats fewer than 1000 people) 2) Make a budget 3) Build the stoplist to the budget at all costs, (second hand material, digital 32's, electric couplers, no winding system) 4) Write at great length in various journals (especially Organists Review) about wonderful it is. OK, this is a little bit stereotyped but you take the point. Of the builders you mentioned at least one (and perhaps all?) buy in all their metal pipes and reeds from supply houses. This is not what first-rate organ builders do. "When it came to his views on organs, his views were many and complex and we will never know or understand them all. His understanding and pallette for discerning organs remains unmatched - he could discern things that would escape everyone else." Isn't there a way in which his collected writings can be published? This seems to me to be an essential tribute to his genius. Greetings Bazuin

"I don't understand the "more mature" part. Sticking to Blackburn as probably the best example, I can't think of many organs on which it is possible to play more or less the entire baroque repertoire (including French), and then do full justice to French romantic repertoire. It really is an extraordinarily fine sound, and one which never fails to excite. The acoustic is actually a bit of a nightmare, but in the central lantern floor space, the organ sounds absolutely wonderful." [Deleted by moderator] The organ has an impressive, colourful sound but it is, unavoidably, a child of its time. Awareness of the repertoire has changed the boundaries by which such success is measured. French [Deleted by moderator] I think Britain needs to objectively assess its post-war organ building history since the war and understand that it hasn't in any way developed into a mature style, nor has it demonstrated anything like the artistic standards in the UK between, let's say, 1860 and 1900, (even if the technical standards are now mostly excellent). Stephen Bicknell, incidentally, understood this profoundly and wrote about it often. Greetings Bazuin

"I think we have more or less done this topic to death, and before we have angels doing the light-fantastic on pin-heads, we should perhaps draw it to a close." Probably you're right, but it is one of the more interesting subjects under discussion I think! "The whole thing never really took off at all in the UK, but of course, what we did do, was to create a new style of UK organ, of which Blackburn, Liverpool Met and Gloucester are examples. That would not have been possible without some degree of "reform"." These in a sense are the iconic organs of the era in the UK, though I would politely suggest that all are to a greater or lesser extent flattered by unusually good acoustical circumstances. What is so regrettable is that the Gloucester and Blackburn organs have now been changed, and that the style they represent didn't develop into anything more mature. I'm itching to visit Poland. While I'm sure what you say is true, there are still astonishing organs to see I think. "Of course, there was also a fiendish amount of romantic revision undertaken by German organ-builders in the early20th century; thus destroying the character of many otherwise historic instruments." This went on everywhere, not just in Poland. A Sauer organ of the 1920s is still a fascinating and wonderful thing. I really am trying to keep this discussion to the post-war period. "Finally, I should clarify what I meant to say about the Netherlands. Quite a number of older instruments were changed by 19th century Netherlands builders, and the organs at the Aa-kerk and Martinikerk in Groningen, were/are very good examples of this. Of course, the changes were probably never as radical as they were in America and the UK, but changes there certainly were, including the use of pneumatic-actions." The changes though were of a different nature because (virtually) all the builders who worked on those organs worked in the same traditions building slider chest organs with mechanical action. And (almost) all were superb organ builders (Van Oeckelen, Van Dam, Witte etc). Pneumatic action only really caught on among the Catholic organ builders Adema and Marschalkerweerd, (and later Vermeulen and Pels who built many awful electro-pneumatic organs). In the limited number of circumstances when pneumatic organ builders did get contracts they almost always built new organs, (Dekker, Koppejan) and those organs were of such poor quality than many were replaced within the first 50 years of their lives. It is important to realise that organs builders such as Bakker en Timmenga and Steenkuyl were building organs with mechanical action, slider chests and no swell boxes well into the 20th century. There is the odd exception such as Valckx en Van Kouteren who built organs like this http://www.orgelsite.nl/kerken14/zwolle11.htm which are now revered in certain quarters and have books written about them. "Finally, the Newberry Memorial organ at Yale. I have heard this instrument, and even as someone who adores the classical tradition of Europe, I wouldn't want a single pipe changed at Yale. It is just gorgeous as it is, and easily the most beautifully expressive instrument in a country full of fine, expressive instruments." Of course that organ should be preserved in every respect. Greetings Bazuin

Thanks to MM for his post. "I’m not suite sure that I can actually think of many really hideous examples of over-intellectualised playing, but I can think of many examples of playing which I would describe as “flat-line,” whether historically informed or not." Exactly my point. "I was actually aware that hearing Bach/Straube in the Netherlands is not uncommon, but of course, I was actually there and heard it for myself; that being the significant thing. What struck me as most significant, was the way in which “romanticism” (for lack of a better word), obviously resulted in something very different to what would have been heard in the UK even during Straube’s time. That difference, I would suggest, comes down to the organs and the manner of playing them. It further suggests that the instruments themselves play a key part in interpretation and even performance practice." This is one of the great truths of the organ and its relationship to the literature, and one largely misunderstood! "This I find interesting, because I don’t think we ever had a first and second generation of organ reformists." No, the first generation is very slowly developing still..... Actually, there have now been three generations in the rest of the world, to grossly over-simplify: 1) The generation of Sybrandt Zachariasson (sp?), Dirk Flentrop et al 2) The generation of John Brombaugh, Jurgen Ahrend, Berhardt Edskes, Charles Fisk 3) The generation of Paul Fritts, Martin Pasi, Henk van Eeken, Martthi Porthan (!) even Bernard Aubertin (!?) In Britain I would say that the writings of Peter Williams at least have second generation tendencies, (admiration for old organs and for historically informed organ building, as long as the inspiration came from before 1800). Stephen Bicknell was the only British writer whose work reflects, to a sublime level of aesthetic awareness, the current state of play in the development of the organ building. "Yes, there was Ralph Downes and his experimental work in America, which ultimately led to a sort of not quite neo-classic eclecticism at the Festival Hall, but I would suggest that the work of Grant, Deegens and Rippen was the first manifestation of an English neo-classical style," And actually, most of the essential features of their organs were already commonplace in the rest of Europe: low wind pressures, ultra-functional cases, open toes, schwimmer regulators, fractional length reeds etc. And most of it was bought in from European supply houses. "followed of course by J W Walker and some useful work by Noel Mander. Another interesting builder was Hill, Norman & Beard, and especially with the organ built for Lady Susi Jeans, with pipework by Eule (?). The main thrust of neo-classical style came from imported organs from Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands, while UK organ-builders tended to re-build instruments in a new Anglo/German/French eclectic style." But the artistic quality of the organs by the builders mentioned was not of the level of the key builders in Europe and the US, and the enormous interest in historic instruments elsewhere has never happened at all, (with the odd exception, William Drake could hold his own anywhere in Europe I think) with the consequences for artistic quality (as opposed to technical quality which the UK is quite sound I think) you see today. "Carlo Curley recorded the opening movement of the 6th Trio Sonata. The choice of instrument could not have been further from anything remotely “historically informed”. Bach would never have known a tangy 8ft string-bass, or heard high pitched tuned percussion registers, yet in recording this work on a cinema organ, Carlo Curley took Bach’s music into uncharted waters. The registration used seems to have been 8ft string bass (A Wurlitzer Cello), 8ft Kinura (reed) with 4ft Flute, and then what sounds like 8ft Flute and a Wurlitzer tuned percussion known as a Chrysoglot (just a set of tinkly bells really). Add to this swell pedals and quite a bit of rubato, and the performance could not be further away from the category of “historically informed.”" Actually, I think Carlo Curley's way of playing (in general) is probably quite closely related to the way of playing the organ in the 1920s in the US. This applies also to Thomas Murray etc. Carlo Curley is much more eccentric than Thomas Murray but the basic playing style has a lot a common. In a sense I have nothing against this way of playing, but neither Murray, nor Curley seek to contextualise it, and both (CC especially) have the habit to ridicule anything which resembles HIP. Shame, because both are such good organists, (regardless of taste) that they don't need to ridicule anyone else. To go back to the point about Doesburg, Thomas Murray's way of playing is also closely tied up with the organ he plays at Yale, an instrument we would now call historic.... "As I have often said, I love to hear Bach played in the Netherlands, where there is a very conscious effort to re-create, as far as possible, performances which are not only historically informed, but authentic to the point that they are often utterly convincing and feel absolutely natural to the music and the instruments being played. It is an almost unique experience, which is probably repeated across Germany in appropriate places." I think there is no one national Bach style in the Netherlands. (I am pulling stops for a Bach concert in Haarlem next week, I shall think more about this!). The way of playing in the Netherlands is mostly historically well informed but grows much more from the instruments themselves. The disciples of Radulescu are equally historically informed (from another point of view) but play completely differently, (always extremely well in my experience) even when they come to Holland. "The words "pot" and "kettle" spring to mind here. There was a lot of damage done to old organs in the Netherlands, and that has gone on for centuries. Even Schnitger destroyed what went before, unless it was included in a "new" instrument." The Schnitger dynasty is noted for including rather large proportions of earlier instruments in their organs. Even if your point were true the organs of Schnitger (and in his era in general) represent, as Stephen Bicknell and Peter Williams and others told us, a much higher artistic plane than the era which we were discussing, namely the period since WWII. But, since you bring it up, let's talk about organs lost in the Netherlands to the 'reformists'. The only really significant organ I can think of was the 1882 Witte in the Grote Kerk in The Hague. This was a very important organ, the largest built in the Netherlands in the 19th century. It was replaced in the early 70s by the big Metzler which is still there (and is, fortunately, one of the best organs of its time anywhere in the world). In the 1970s already the loss of this organ was regretted, even in print. Some other smaller Witte organs were also lost (twice in large churches in Utrecht), and some smaller organs by lesser 19th century builders (Naber for instance). Doesburg was almost lost but survived, Haarlem was, ehhmm, changed somewhat. Given the UK's record on organ conservation, the Netherlands has very little to be ashamed of. "Do they have state protection in Poland or the Czech Republic? I don't actually know, but there are quite a lot of totally vandalised instruments; especially in the latter country." I can find out about Poland, I'm 90% sure the Czech Republic does. There are organ advisers from the Netherlands going there regularly (also to Estonia, and many other places in the East) to advise on organ restorations. Compared to Britain, the communist regimes probably did more to protect historic organs (by default) with the result that many historic organs await restoration, unplayable, but also unaltered. "I never knew quite what Stephen thought of post-war, modernist organ-building in the UK, let alone his views on cross-fertilisation. I remember that he sort of curled his nose at the mention of the Walker organ of Blackburn Cathedral. He was far more the enthusiast historian, I suspect." This does him a dis-service. He was the outstanding British organ historian of his generation, but, more importantly, his commentary on everything related to organ building, design and history represents the essential body of writing on these subjects in the modern English speaking world. He was the only (English speaking) writer for instance who could, and did, publish objective assessments of new organs. Compare this with what was (and still is) printed about new organs in Organists Review.... Its a shame more people didn't listen. (Oh, and he designed St Ignatius...) I am hoping that his collected writings in the magazines, BIOS journals, and even PIPORG-L will be published together, though the brilliance of his work is, at the moment I fear, too under-appreciated to make this possible. Does anyone know otherwise? Greetings Bazuin

Stephen Tharp apparently wrote about the extremes of performance style: "One is to over-intellectualize the background and specifics of any style and make it elitist and devoid of any musical merit" and since Tuesday I was trying to think of an example of somebody (or a recording or...) who falls into this category. Can someone help me? His point is, in my opinion, true to the extent that bad musicians are bad musicians, but their historical awareness or lack of it doesn't contribute to their badness. MM's comments about his experience in Doesburg are not so remarkable as he perhaps suspects. The study of late 19th and early 20th century performance practices of 17th and 18th century music is a fairly common phenomenon in the Netherlands, Germany, and even to an extent in France. I think you could hear some Bach/Straube like MM heard almost every year in a concert in Doesburg. In Britain, because the 'clean break' of the post-war modernist (neo-baroque if you prefer) movement was never fully embraced, (how many people still play from Novello editions of Bach?) the return to playing Bach in the ways which sound well on the British 19th and early 20th century organs still seems strange. Is this because (as I suspect) some dogmas of the first wave of the reform movement play a subconscious role (at least without any conscience sense of context) in the performance choices made? Hasn't aesthetic context (objective) been confused with 'taste' (subjective)? The other role played by the study of Straube/Schweitzer (etc) performance practices of Bach etc is to inform the player about the performance practices (and especially use of the organ) in the music of, for example, Reger, in the case of Straube at least. I think it is important to distinguish between the first generation of the reform movement, (both in terms of playing and instrument making) which was resulted primarily in dogmas ("the 20th century as the era of theories") such as open toes, low wind pressures, 'detached articulation' (huh?) etc, and the subsequent generations which set out far more to find answers from historical evidence. We no longer (thankfully) talk about "authentic" performances, but rather "historically informed" performances which always leaves some space for what we, the human element in the performance, can bring to the table. But if one doesn't have the thirst to find the answers, be aware of the sources, the techniques, the tuning systems etc etc, what is left? Bradley Lehmann (who contributes here) has suggested some titles for the resulting style: "Historically Clueless Performance? Wild Guesswork Performance? Whatever Feels Right Performance? Whatever My Personal Hero Did Must Be Right Performance? Didn't Do My Homework So I'll Wing It Performance? Anything Goes Performance? History Is Irrelevant Performance? Whatever They Did On My Favourite Recording That's What I Must Imitate Performance? Just The Facts Ma'am Performance? What My Teacher's Teacher's Teacher's Teacher's Teacher Did Because He Was Beethoven Performance? OK I'm getting carried away here, but all those types of performance do exist, even if there aren't convenient labels for them" (quoted in Bruce Haynes's 'The End of Early Music', OUP 2007) I accept that a certain playing style (described, again by MM, as 'expressionist') has survived in the UK. However, listening to the wonderful Brian Culverhouse EMI LPs of the 1960s reveals, I think, that this has become rather diluted in the interim. Didn't the tradition of playing became affected by a rather haphazard sense of reformist (actually modernist) influence? British 'expressionist' organists might not 'do' history but neither is their way of playing in the line of the traditions of previous generations, (with the exception perhaps of late romantic English literature and choral accompaniment). The most significant consequence of this haphazard cross-fertilisation is reflected in the organ building and restoration culture in the UK since the war. Many fine romantic organs were rebuilt beyond recognition (even now electrifying the action of a 100 year old pneumatic organ is seen as acceptable), historic instruments still have (uniquely in Europe) no state protection, and the vast majority of instruments built in the UK today, both by UK firms and by mainstreams firms (mostly) from the German speaking world fit neatly in Stephen Bicknell's summary, (and nothing has changed in the 10 years since he wrote it): "There will still be attempts to re-state the now outdated modernist position (the British Isles are sadly peppered with several expensive recent attempts at under-researched and amateurishly eclectic organ schemes. These make little positive contribution to our stock of really good instruments)." Whatever, the discussion and application of aesthetic and historical knowledge, and its practical application, deserves more than lip service and shouldn't be underestimated. Greetings Bazuin

This week's Pipedreams programme features the wonderful dual-temperament Martin Pasi organ at Catholic Cathedral in Omaha, Nebraska in music from Buxheimer to Messiaen, (and Latry improvising). This organ was mentioned here a couple of weeks back. In general I can't stand the idea of the 'eclectic' organ, but when its done THIS well, I am totally seduced. http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/listings/2008/0822/ and see here for a wealth of technical info about the organ: http://www.pasiorgans.com/instruments/opus14.html The new Paul Fritts organ at the Sacred Heart Cathedral in Rochester NY will be inaugurated in October, a nice slideshow of its on-going construction is here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/944/story/363526.html The case is inspired by the famous case at the Sint Jan in Den Bosch I think... Happy Listening/viewing! Bazuin

I think there is nothing controversial about tierce mixtures in baroque music, this is one of the mythical dogmas of the first generation of the reform movement. Mattheson himself states that sesquiateras belong to the plenum stops. And, as you can hear in this example, tierce mixtures in Thuringia were quite normal, as they were in the Rhineland (König!) and elsewhere. So, WHY is it so unusual to find tierce mixtures (or, while I'm about it 16' mixtures, ie with the 5, 1/3 quint) in 'mainstream' modern organ building? I was delighted to see that Willis have started making tierce mixtures (in a different context of course) in some new organs, reflecting the practice of their illustrious founder. Bravo! The use of heels here, I think, reflects the rather one-dimensional way of playing, in which all accents (even of the smallest notes!) are treated in the same heavy way, and the pedal line is played virtually legato. Watch the way in which Stamm's playing of the accents in reflected in the movement of his body, which even mimics semiquaver accents along with his feet. (see 4'00 and around 4'12). What amazes me is that he can play the heel at all on this organ, I can't imagine it would be worth the effort! Greetings Bazuin

I thought the review was a bit superficial, or at least random. Its a shame for instance that nothing was said about the basic structure of the piece (the 3 groups of movements, 9 as the number of maternity etc) which could perhaps have increased the appreciation of the piece for the 'lay' listener. I also thought it was a shame that more wasn't said about the choice of organ. Notre Dame for example is no longer a Cavaillé-Coll organ in any meaningful sense, despite what Thurlow tells us. On the other hand, (partly) because of the technology in that organ, all of Messiaen's registrations can be faithfully re-produced. I suspect also that Latry's approach in general to his Messiaen recordings reflects the improvisatory nature of the composer's recordings. Despite his somewhat haphazard approach to playing his own scores, Messiaen was seemingly somewhat dictatorial when guiding others. I also remember a story Nicholas Kynaston told about the last movement of L'Ascension. If memory serves, (please correct me otherwise) it is marked 'Lent' with a quaver tempo of 48. Messiaen scored out the 48 in Kynaston's copy and wrote '12'. In other words, Lent can never really be too Lent..... Its a shame that David Titterington's recording for Hyperion is no longer available, I enjoy it very much. Still, I'm glad that Gillian Weir won, this is surely what she does best, and I don't think anyone does it better. On the other hand, although I love Messiaen, it isn't my area of expertise.... Greetings Bazuin (exhausted after losing several hours of sleep last night to the mother of all thunderstorms).

"Well, this IS the Chopin Academy edition. But it is riddled with typos. There is often no solution except to guess." There is a story behind the publication of that edition which was somewhat complicated, I can't recall the circumstances. Musical politics in Poland seems to be a complicated subject. I will try and find out something about it, and report back.... Bazuin

Can I take a moment to recommend the cpo recordings of the Nowowiejski symphonies and concertos played by the late Jerzy Erdman. He also prepared a scholarly edition of the music I believe, (I know Erdman's daughter very well, she introduced me to the recordings and the music). The organ is a Klais from around 1910, proper German late Romantic and far more interesting than the organs they build now. The aesthetic works very well for N's music, I think there's more than a hint of Wagner (ironically?) in the harmonic language, and while it does ramble a bit, there are some astonishing moments. The Erdman recordings are very special; committed, virtuosic and, apparently all but unedited. Nice that Barry Jordan chose to record this music on his new instrument. Greetings Bazuin

Could Mr Lucas inform us what material the manual keys are covered in (both white and black please)? Thanks in advance Bazuin

I was thinking of hammered lead indeed which is common in the earliest surviving organs in the Netherlands. Nice that MM quotes Charles Fisk, his articles on this subject are fascinating and good propaganda for the style of lead pipework practiced by him, and more especially John Brombaugh. The latter visited Oosthuizen (1520-ish) in the 1950s already and it seems to have been very significant, because he continued to build new organs, (modelled after much later examples than Oosthuizen) with hammered lead pipes throughout his career. The resulting 'vocale' (the detractors call it "heavy lead") sound was an important step in the historically oriented organ building there then, and especially towards the organs by his disciples there now, who have oriented themselves on a wider array of historic examples. Although Brombaugh's heavy lead organs now seem a little passé, his instruments are astoundingly beautiful, (listen to Julia Brown's Naxos recordings of Scheidemann) and sometimes very inventive, (swell boxes with mixtures modelled on Father Willis!). I read today that Walcker's masterpiece in the Dom in Riga (built as late as 1883/4) has compasses of 54/27. Frankly my 56/30 compasses render me avant-garde. Greetings Bazuin

"Yes he did." I think some wires have been crossed here. Cortege et Litanie requires the top G in the pedal, (G32), which St Sulpice does not have. The manual compass does indeed go to G56. Greetings Bazuin

Nice that some of you leapt to my defence, it is appreciated. The only source I know of regarding heels in the Bach circle comes from Mr Kittel (whose music I like and play quite often), who studied with Bach very briefly at the end of his (Bach's) life. As far as I am aware he doesn't state specifically that Bach used his heels, but does use the heel a little himself in some excercises from his teaching method. It is interesting to look at the 19th organ methods of, for instance, August Ritter - here the heel is used, but rather late in the story, toe substitution is, seemingly, more important. If you play organs in Bach's time, and in Bach's region (or in Holland, or just about anywhere) you quickly discover that using the heel i) hurts a lot and ii) makes controlling the sound almost impossible. But what too few people realise is that all these questions of technique, whether it be to do with fingering, pedalling etc, didn't happen by accident and are always related to a musical end. Many people of the first generation of the reform movement (and some still I'm afraid to say) learn these things purely as dogmas. Its also important to realise that as organists we are simply part of the larger musical developement of the last half century which has made the link between musical styles, and performing styles/techniques a perfectly normal aspect of making music. The only place in Bach incidentally where I am tempted to use the heel because I can't make it work any other way is in the figura corta passage in the pedal solo of BWV 564. 'French amateur', I've played a study organ by Gerard Bancells in Toulouse, also his organ in the Institut Catholique there with the wonderful case. I thought they were both excellent organs. My proposal has the same compasses as St Sulpice by the way. Was Cavaille-Coll also a fetishist? Greetings Bazuin (going to the St Bavo this evening to hear Dick Koomans play the world premiere of the new 17 minute organ piece by Ad Wammes, he of Miroir fame)