bazuin

Oh pncd... "Bazuin, you once accused me (incorrectly) of judging an instrument from the comfort of my armchair. I have to say that I wonder if you have done exactly this, in the case of the organ of Southwark Cathedral." You're right - I haven't made it there yet. Which is why I was careful to simply quote Bicknell and not to offer any opinion of my own. "It is true that the G.O. chorus is enormous in the South Transept but, even halfway down the Nave, it loses much of its impact and sounds rather distant." So, I will quote Stephen Bicknell once again this time referring to a specific visit to Southwark: "I was fortunate to arrive at the end of a memorial service for Bishop Hugh Montefiore and caught the final hymn and, to close, Stephen Disley playing the grave and cadenza from the Fantasia in G. A typical Southwark experience. The hymn was kept together by the Great Organ alone and without any obvious change in registration - there may have been a little Swell on but it makes no odds - Stephen launched into the Bach on the Great chorus. Only 13 stops to play with, and I doubt he used them all.....The organ commanded the space despite the usual conversation but at the same time those talking clearly felt no need to shout to drown it out." So, who do I believe? Can I suggest that you read between the lines a little more with regards to people's agendas when changing organs, especially in the post-war period. We discussed Francis Jackson's removal of the Harrison trombas at York before - I still believe you missed the point entirely. Organists have agendas. Agendas are often nothing do with what is best for the organ and everything to do with transient fashion. Perhaps what you call 'pressing musical reasons' should not be so naively interpreted. Especially when those reasons formed the justification for the loss of such an enormous proportion of Britain's organ heritage. And that without a Norbert Duforque to orchestrate things... The above is intended only to further the discussion and not in any way to undermine the validity of your interesting post. Bazuin

I have many favourites. I grew up reading Peter Williams (A History of the Organ from the Greeks to the Present Day as well as The European Organ) and although Williams' standpoint is perhaps slightly over zealous in favouring anything built before 1750, these remain standard texts. In addition I would recommend 'The Organ as a Mirror of its Time' (ed Kerala Snyder, OUP 2002) simply because it succeeds like almost no other book in putting significant instruments into their broadest possible contexts both musically, socially, and culturally. These are also marvellous if you can find a copy: http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Brenton-Fisk...s/dp/0961675519 And, at the moment, I'm reading Charles Callahan's 'The American Classic Organ, A History in Letters' which, among other things, gives a hair-raising glimpse into the psyche of Henry Willis III... Bazuin

"Surely the most obvious example is the magnificent 'Lewis' instrument at Southwark Cathedral. A worse position could hardly have been found..." Stephen Bicknell on Southwark: "There is good egress north, but not high. There is higher egress west into the transept, but the arch is only nine feet wide. Since Lewis, the Choir Organ has been moved across the building to its detriment. I am explaining how it worked in 1897. The Great chorus was on a slider soundboard within the thickness of the arch into the transept. The Great basses were all out in front, in an architectural case much wider and taller than the opening behind it. The slider soundboard for the chorus is laid out with the 4' principal at the front. In this position the Great chorus is able to address the building and lead a congregation, but it is utterly remote from the choir (singers). So, for accompanimental purposes Lewis placed the Choir and Swell organs facing north across the chancel, unenclosed choir in front and swell behind. Now you see why the Choir Organ has a mixture - it functions as the accompanimental 'great organ' and gives a chorus lead in the chancel. Back in the transept, you remember, we have this lonely Great chorus. How do we get the 'full swell' effect so loved of Anglican organists (whether the psalms mention 16' reeds or not!)? The actual swell organ can theoretically do the job, but in practice it is facing the other way and sounds rather muted and a little bit late. Hey presto, Lewis places the Solo organ immediately behind the Great Organ in the transept arch and gives it two enclosed chorus reeds, a full length 16' (early sources sometimes call it Bombarde, sometimes Trombone) and a high pressure Trompette-Harmonique 8. 'Full swell' in two stops, job done." So, what pncd is saying is that Southwark is a prime example of an organbuilding genius overcoming a difficult position so that the listener would never notice?... Bazuin

"I am not sure what I would play on such a scheme" With the best will in the world, there is not much repertoire that springs to my mind that would provide much of an aesthetic match to your stoplist either. Much as I like the early mid-Victorian/Hill (?) ethos you're trying to evoke. Can the Great mixture at least have a tierce in the bass like Hill? "Mechanical action, with Barker lever assistance to Great and Choir organs." To the Choir? Just for the sake of the loud reed? Could I have the Warrington C-C in a 'salon' designed specifically for it by Dana Kirkegaard? Colin H's approach is also very tempting. But, actually, I like pncd's idea of a fund for the conservation of historic instruments most of all. Bazuin

A recording of the complete trio sonatas on an organ which sounds like an early Hill as rebuilt by Willis III and our hosts? I think you might struggle and, in any case, not looking for a recording on a historic organ because you don't like the old Walcha versions is a shame. I have individual trio sonata recordings which I like more than any of the complete sets of which I am aware. The complete set which I enjoy the most is probably Bine Bryndorf's set from the Garnisons Church in Copenhagen (Carsten Lund) on Olufsen Records, although the outer movements are too quick for my taste. I have to admit that I don't know whether this is still available. Bazuin

"I don't quite understand all of this, Bazuin...Certainly, 'The result was indeed a victory for Consolitis,' but I am wary of anything which is regarded as 'dated' or indeed 'state-of-the-art' or 'forward-looking.' This makes me one of those who are never satisfied, of course." It is simply the case that international restoration philosophy, in general, now has more respect for historic material from different eras than was the case 25 years ago. "Surely you can't argue that 'In the Netherlands, such an approach has long been abandoned'? What about the Concertgebouw in Haarlem? Or the arguments about the Aakerk in Groningen?" Two completely different cases. The Der Aa Kerk (assuming the later additions are kept which seems highly likely) neatly illustrates my point. The quality of the changes made to the Haarlem organ (including electrification of the action and some neo-baroque additions) by Adema (probably) cannot be compared in quality with the solo organ added to the Doncaster organ by Norman and Beard in 1910 (especially as this addition did not come at the cost of original material - the solo at Doncaster consisted of borrowed stops until 1910). At least there would be a more compelling reason to preserve the latter. Each case has to be judged on its own merits of course but the days when a late 18th century Rugpositief was removed when the early 17th century organ are now officially over I think. Bazuin

"The question for Pierre is still a serious one which has been answered with a historian's and enthusiast's head, but not yet a realists. Why do I spend £500,000 on the kind of overhaul and new console which it probably needs to survive another 30-40 years," Sorry David but I don't understand your economics. Surely your organ's present state is because of the cheap but not very cheerful treatment handed out to it by R and D. If your organ was rebuilt in an artistically cohesive way, perhaps with a new pneumatic action (who does that these days? And yet Britain is full of pneumatic actions by Binns, Norman and Beard et al which are still going strong 100 years on!) and as little obsolescence as possible, why couldn't it survive as long as a new 30 stop organ with mechanical action? Why only 30-40 years? Why would your mechanical action organ be any less prone to the damage caused to your 12 reservoirs, for example ? In case you think I'm crazy suggesting a new pneumatic action, I heard this week from a colleague in Norway who had just visited a 'new' organ of 60 stops in Tonsberg by Ryde and Berg. This was originally built by Frobenius in 1924 and electrified and neo-baroqueified in the 1950s. The organ has a new case, some new stops partly to replace the 1950s additions, and a new pneumatic action! "Bring a lorry and get the real thing! There are countless dozens in storage. Some, by no means all, may be there for a very good reason." This is happening already! The 'good reason' in most instances is antipathy, mostly not shared by the organs' new owners on foreign shoes. Bazuin

On paper this organ is very interesting. But what does the venerable house of Eule know about English Romantic organs? Bazuin

I have come across this organist personally - a Feike Asma disciple with a very heavy touch. His father, as Pierre doubtless knows, is a respected organ historian, author of the definitive text about the organ builders Witte. Bazuin

very very highly recommended - you won't believe what drops through your letter box. Bazuin

"Did I hear that Van den Heuvel also make this kind of action too?" I would very surprised if VDH have ever done this themselves - I rather suspect they simply buy them in. Would be glad to be contradicted. Of companies making their own machines, I know certainly of Harrison doing it for the Willis re-construction project in Glasgow and Verschueren doing it in Gothenburg (but not in Amsterdam where the new Orgelpark organ has a bought-in machine because of the extremely tight deadline for the completion of the organ). And Fisk of course, but that's another system (similar I think to the Willis one). Could David Wyld perhaps confirm whether they made the Willis lever on the organ in Italy 'in-house' or whether it was made elsewhere? And, if the former, what the specific challenges are in making a successful assisted mechanical action? The question of whether French romantic organs can accompany Anglican liturgy is an interesting one - the perceived wisdom has always been that they can't. And yet Exeter College Oxford, for example, purchased an organ in that style to do exactly that. There aren't many other examples I can think of - the organ at Paisley Abbey accompanies a lot of that music, the Swell there, with its C-C reeds is something to behold and unlike anything else in the UK. As an aside, has anyone heard Yves Castagnet accompanying the choir at ND de Paris on the orgue de choeur there? I am always impressed. The thing that strikes me about Doncaster was that the reconstruction plan represented, in the broadest context, an already very dated restoration philosophy which recognised only the original material as being of historic importance. In the Netherlands, such an approach has long been abandoned and a better compromise could surely have been found at Doncaster which served both the organ's evolved state and its Thuringian roots. The result was indeed a victory for Consolitis. It is worth re-stating that historic organs must always take precedence over the transient nature both of liturgical and performance practices. Bazuin

"Never thought I'd say it, but a similarly primitive console doesn't seem to bother the organist of Saint Sulpice . . . " "Could it be that nowadays playing the organ has become more of a matter of playing the pistons/sequencer etc. ??" In Britain it has been for generations now. It's called console-itis. Registrants in Britain are 'verboten'........ or? Ewald Kooiman used to find it hilarious that British organists must be able to push pistons efficiently but still use page turners... Regarding the idea of the Parr Hall organ being moved to Sheffield, I would be more worried about how that organ would sound in the dry-as-toast acoustic of that church. Whatever, that organ is the largest tonally unaltered C-C in the UK, and for that reason alone it must receive a world-class restoration and an arena where it will be championed. Bazuin

"I was thinking of trying Notre Dame but was told by someone who went recently that, though the organ was good, the vocal side was "a girl singing into a microphone". No, the music at Notre Dame is really very good these days. The choir is first rate - they've got consistently better over the last 5-10 years and now you would struggle to find a better mixed-voice choir even in the UK. Listen to the newer CDs from Editions Hortus. On a Sunday the choir is amplified to be heard throughout the church which is a bit off-putting but of course the organ requires no such treatment... Bazuin

"Please forgive my ignorance, but I assume by plenum you mean 8' to mixture? I tried this while I was practicing last night and adding the mixture seemed to work great in that building." Perhaps with the 16' as well. On your organ I would also experiment coupling in the reeds. The plenum as a generic idea can include reeds (especially full-length ones) and (principal-scaled) tierces (assuming they're not already in the mixtures) as well. good luck! Bazuin

"To take an example, in my opinion sharp mixtures and french type chorus reeds are very rarely successful. This is not necessarily loudness, but tone quality" Of course. French reeds sound well in French churches becuase the churches develop the overtones. (Arp) Schnitger reeds sound well in any room because there are so few overtones to develop. Sharp mixtures only work well in rooms with an acoustic to absorb them. I still can't believe the number of organs with sharp mixtures being built in the UK for unsuitable rooms. Bazuin

"but the 2nd 'Vif' movement seems quite interesting - somewhat akin to Vierne's 'Naiades'." Ahem - akin is putting it politely... When exactly does flattery become plagarism? Bazuin

I'm sure we're talking about 137 - 136 is also in C major but is a more 'standard' Praeludium. Keep your registration scheme relatively straightforward - and make sure it reflects the structure of the piece. I often play with the plenum until the beginning of the fugue, then simply cancel the mixture and add the trumpet if it wasn't there already. It's a bit like Harald Vogel's idea of moving from plenum in the free sections to what he calls 'consort' registrations in the fugues - but without the extensive change of registration. Then back, and perhaps add something for the conclusio (ie following the end of the chaconne). Note also the time signature of the Chaconne - 3/2 is not quick and the tempo marking (I think it's Presto) is somewhat spurious. Good luck with it! Bazuin

I would like to thank Colin for his post and to Nigel for his reply. It's a shame this discussion got side-tracked by another, only partly-related, issue. I am very fortunate to have experienced as a student a number of different teaching situations, where the instruments themselves were placed more or less centrally. I acknowledge Nigel's points entirely about the dangers of practising the sound and also his point about putting the wrong organs in the wrong rooms. Nevertheless, I believe that the 'instrument as teacher' philosophy goes deeper than perhaps Nigel does. The organ literature is often denegrated by musicians (even organists) who remove the music from the context of the instruments for which it was conceived. For me, the literature, the associated techniques and the instrument (not just the sound but also the FEEL and what we might term the idiosyncracies) are one and the same thing. This, for me, must be replicated (as far as possible) in the teaching instruments in our conservatories. The super-enthusiastic American students (with their first-rate copies) to whom Nigel refers and whom I have come across on many occasions show us why. It is quite impossible for a student to understand anything about a tierce en taille when the jeu de tierce in question is manipulated via a non-mechanical action and/or an ultra-steady winding system and/or an equal temperament. Sweelinck seldom, and only in exceptional circumstances comes alive in equal temperament. It's meantone music, take the temperament away and you lose the key flavour. A stop-list at the end of the day means nothing. It's worth mentioning that in Amsterdam the entry level of most organists is lower than at the London colleges. But the pedagogy is so well structured that the first year exams are always extraordinary for what the student has achieved in that year. It's very easy to accept only brilliant students onto a course but equally it often masks some pretty shoddy pedagogy (throughout the world, and very frequently on other instruments, especially the violin and piano). In Amsterdam, the teachers are only interested in potential and interest-level, and the teaching, from day one, takes place on historic organs. In the end though, I agree with Nigel that the most important facet of any organ, and especially one intended for teaching, is its quality. Greetings Bazuin

The R/C pedalboard has in the grand scheme of things never been more than a curiosity. It has no relation to any serious organ literature produced outside the UK or the US. It is the only pedalboard to promote equality of the heel and toe which is a very very late development in organ technique. It is interesting to consider that one of the chief proponents of heel/toe equality, Marcel Dupré, played on a straight/flat board both at church and at home throughout his entire life. There are also significant health issues linked with the R/C board, because it is, inevitably, further under the organ than on any traditional console. This encourages a poor posture (what an American colleague of mine calls the 'Harley Davison' posture) as the leg weight, (the leg being angled away from the body) plays no role in supporting the body weight. This puts all the body weight on the lower back. No wonder physiotherapists go mad when they see organists play... In terms of adapting - it's much easier to go from flat to R/C than vice versa. For me then, straight/flat every time. Unless your repertoire includes Sowerby's Pageant, Germani's Toccata, Manari's Concert Etude etc etc! Bazuin

"Just out of interest, can anyone who has actually played the existing Van den Heuvel instrument state what is wrong with it, or hazard a guess as to why a fairly high-profile - and not very old - organ is to be replaced completely?" Because it was built by VDH. There was a report on a Dutch organ website about 4 years ago that the front pipes were collapsing - I think Flentrop had to go in and make it safe. "I have written on this sort of topic on a number of occasions. I, too, think that there are far too many new commissions being awarded to foreign builders; so much so that it has become fashionable. When I raised this subject several years ago with an eminent world-class organist (sorry to repeat the point) I was told that it was all to do with repertoire. I did not get the opportunity to challenge this reply. Surely, if a new organ is to be built, particularly in a concert hall or, in this case, the RAM., it is not outside the capabilities of a BRITISH ORGAN BUILDER, to come up with the goods and build an instrument capable of covering all types of repertoire." This is a crazy muddled-headed situation I think - the RAM purchased an organ from VDH to be able to teach properly a single area of the repertoire. Unfortunately, they bought it from VDH and not from Verschueren (for example) who, of course, could have done it much better. But to replace the organ with a new Central-European 'eclectic' factory organ upon which none of the repertoire can be taught in a contextual way (in a sense duplicating their teaching instrument at St Marylebone) is, in my opinion, pretty backward. The crazy thing is that the best British builders CAN do this kind of organ as well as a Kuhn, Rieger, Klais (take your pick...). To counter Barry Oakley's point, it has been fashionable to import from abroad since the 1960s - this is a long lasting fashion. The new Koegler in Glasgow, or Richards/Fowkes in London will be organs of a higher level than the UK can provide. I don't feel the same way about Kuhn. Bazuin

Patrick I am appalled by this as I hope we all are. It raises again the question of why there is no state protection in the UK for organs of historical value. This is a situation unique in Europe. I know that BIOS has tried in the past to obtain the status of a gonvernment advisory body without success. With the ever-increasing rate of church closures in the UK, the potential for destruction of swathes of what is left of the British organ heritage is greater than ever. It is the responsibility of all of us involved in the organ culture (whether as professional people or as enthusiasts) to fight hard for such instruments and to ensure their survival to the best of our abilities. The presence of a state advisory body doesn't automatically solve the problem (as Pierre will confirm) but at least it provides some legal protection for organs and theoretically means that those responsible for the destruction of valuable organs can be prosecuted. Bazuin

Cynic Sorry to burst your bubble, I played a couple of times on an otherwise dreadful 1920s Vermeulen organ in the Netherlands with precisely this device. There really is nothing new under the sun, which is not to say that it isn't a good idea. Bazuin

"Why?????????????????????? Where were the British builders in all of this?" For once in this ever-running argument we can objectively say that this new organ will provide the UK with something on a level which no builder in Britain has yet reached (in the modern era). "It has been suggested before that the Frobenius in Oxford actually had a much more significant influence on British organ building than the H&H in the Festival Hall" It should have! Did it really? "And it is extremely good for the diversity of our instrumental pool." Absolutely. And it is the first organ in Europe which represent the pre-eminent organ-building school in the world today (certainly when it comes to building organs for situations beyond style-copies. Although it is precisely because those builders did the style-copy-thing for so long, and in such a scholarly and artistic way that their modern instruments are so good). Bazuin

Dear Boarders This is very exciting: http://www.richardsfowkes.com/index.php These guys are among the half dozen best organ builders in the world - this organ is going to turn heads and drop jaws... (I was already excited about 62 ranks of Koegler coming to Glasgow...) Bazuin

I think there are several fundamental reasons why hosts of organ recitals (in general, acknowledging the exceptions appropriately) struggle to generate audiences: i) the organ, more than any other instrument, is badly played in situations where the audience has paid to hear it. And, actually, in general in public situations. ii) organists, still, have the habit to programme second-rate, dull music (mostly, I believe, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge of the repertoire, again this is a generalisation and there are happy exceptions) iii) the lack of professional PR afforded to other art-music (and other arts) establishments. And, more specifically, a lack of imaginitive, sustainable, widespread PR. I think, if these things could be effectively tackled, people would return to the organ. Easier said than done, of course, but the answer doesn't lie, as so many people seem to think, in dumbing-down the programming. Why should the organ have to dumb-down more than any other instrument? Can you imagine Evgeny Kissin playing the piano-equivalent of 'Penguin's Playtime?' And he doesn't struggle to attract an audience... Can I once again direct your attention to the Orgelpark in Amsterdam, which is doing extraordinary things (with, admittedly, an extraordinary budget) to attract people back to the organ? Or consider the remarkable PR and associated audiences which flock daily to the events of the annual Toulouse les Orgues festival? Greetings Bazuin