john carter
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Posts posted by john carter
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I find Van Eeken's concept and craft very appealing.
So do I. I also find Savile Row suits and handmade shoes very appealing, but I can't afford them. Fine craftsmanship is also expensive to maintain. My church recently faced a bill of over £7000 to refurbish our old Broadwood grand piano.
It's all very well having our heads in the clouds, but if the organ is to live on, other than in Cathedrals and Concert Halls, innovation is the only answer.
JC
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Why have instrument makers started to make viols and harsichords again? Surely the modern violin in infinitely superior to the viol and the pianoforte to the harpsichord? Shouldn't they simply be concentrating on making ever better violins and pianos?
And if a church like the Grote Kerk, Dordrecht, wants to have a "Bach" organ in the north aisle in addition to the romantic slush bucket at the west end, why shouldn't they?
I have no objection to the Grote Kerk choosing to do whatever they wish, if they believe it is appropriate for their mission.
Yes, I do believe instrument makers should concentrate on making better violins and pianos, because that is what our children will play. Harpsichords and viols are and will remain a minority interest. If the organ is to survive it has to become more affordable and more playable or the Classic FM wedding music CD will become the norm. Is that what we want to see? For the organ it is a matter of innovate or die.
JC
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You might not like the idea but the quality is so high is doesn't need to be justified.
This reminds me of the time that Rolls-Royce insisted on retaining drum brakes and cross-ply tyres - because they knew best! Why do you strive to stifle innovation in the apparent belief that what is historically authentic must be better?
JC
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In order to be sure, if I stick to my own language:
"Amaï seg efkes'"
Pierre
Ech verstinn nët! Have I got anywhere near the correct language?
I hope I didn't offend you? I only wanted to know if you liked the idea of a recording at Durham or not.
John
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Aaaaargh......Should we understand you have it recorded?
Pierre
Pierre,
Did you mean Aaaaargh
or Aaaaahhh 
? English can be a strange language!JC
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I wonder how many here over-heard the Radio 4 morning service from Cardiff today.
I mention it because the organ as broadcast sounded so exceptionally electronic that this, for me, blows away the excuse that it is speaker technology that is at fault. The singers (variable in tuning though they were, especially the 'tops') came across exactly as real singers, while the organ failed to match this effect in any way. I was listening to them both on the same speakers.
It was absolutely ghastly! It isn't just the speaker technology, but how you exploit it in an almost completely dead room. I can think of ways of improving it, but it isn't a topic for this board.
JC
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I think Building a Library only compares currently available versions though, doesn't it?
Yes, come to think of it, you are right.
JC
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Will that do to be going on with ??
Thank you Brian. Now you have reminded me, I do remember some of these, including one I dislike intensely! But I'm not sure whether they are all currently available on CD. Whatever people think about the Elgar, it would be interesting to compare different performances. In my opinion, a far more interesting exercise than the Messiaen, in which the style is so tightly specified by the composer and in some cases, the recordings made in his presence.
JC
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I am delighted to report that all is well.
Thank you for that news, David.
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Joking apart, is anyone able to check that Nigel is OK? Although it is probably a machine problem, I'm surprised that we haven't seen a follow up.
JC
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Although our hosts are indeed very tolerant of this subject, I do wonder whether we should limit the discussion to home practice instruments only, as a matter of courtesy.
Barry, you appear to have added this sentence after I posted my reply. I do not see anything discourteous to our hosts in pointing out the shortcomings of what is real and present competition. I am sure that they realise they have a strong body of support for the traditional approach within the membership of this forum.
JC
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You have a point, but it is a complex issue. Virtually all the speakers used are 'pressed' rather than 'cast', so they distort after a year or two, even when driven at low power. Similarly, even the expensive machines do not have active or powered cross-overs. Again, the configurations of speakers are unimaginative, leading to redundancies of equipment and reduced musical effect.
I think it is more complex than just the hardware. The main problem with an otherwise very fine new digital instrument I encountered at Easter was that it speaks at you rather than to you. It takes no advantage of the acoustic of the building or the reflected sound that is an inherent characteristic of a pipe organ and its case. Everything is effectively en chamade. A great deal of effort has gone into tailoring the individual attack of the notes, yet the way the sound waves build up and propagate within the building (what perhaps may be described as pre-verberation) seems to have been overlooked.
JC
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The three Franck Chorals would be a good one. There must be a fair number of recordings of those to compare.
There must be a few versions of Duruflé's complete organ works that are worth comparing. Some are more complete than others and that in itself might be interesting.
I don't know what Vierne they did previously, but how about the 6 Symphonies? Not sure how many sets there are in the catalogue at present, but there's van Oosten, Filsell and, I think, Roth.
How about the Elgar Sonata? Now that would be interesting.
Reubke's Sonata?
Thank you Vox, for saving me the trouble of writing out my list. You must be a mind reader! I think these are good suggestions, but would it be necessary perhaps to concentrate on one Franck Choral? There are certainly plenty of recordings old and new. Similarly with the Vierne Symphonies, plenty of recordings to choose from, but perhaps it would be best to analyse different performances of one Symphony. I'd add Latry, Sanger and the inimitable Cochereau to your list, not forgetting the recent BBC issue by David Briggs.
Duruflé would be interesting, but Graeme Kay did compare a couple of versions in one of the CD review programmes last summer (Though he didn't include my favourites)
I don't know how many recordings of the Elgar are out there, I have two - Herbert Sumsion and Thomas Trotter - but I can't think of others just now. Similarly I can't think of many recordings of the Reubke, but it would be interesting to compare Roger Fisher's 1970s recording with his recent one for Amphion.
JC
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...the effect is rather that of adding some nasal quinty stuff to some soft gedackty stuff, then some whiffly flutey stuff, then some keen-as-mustard stringy stuff, then a massive Principal, then some stratospheric Mixtures...
Do I get the impression that it's not quite your ideal design then?
JC
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Some advice please. A young organist has asked me for some advice on which edition to go for with Widor symphonies. My own organ music is half a mile away at the moment and I can't quite thing what I've got. All editions look the same (not including the OUP version of the Symph 5 Toccata in the Wedding Music album) . He has seen two volumes by Dover which are very reasonably priced. Are these any good for performance? They are large enough to use and, as I say, look just like photo-ed versions of whatever edition it is that I use. What should he do?
Martin.
The Dover publications are early versions of the score and there are some significant differences from later editions, the last page of the Toccata from Symphony 5 is quite a surprise if you aren't expecting it. These editions are fine for those of us who are able to compare later versions and make handwritten amendments, but I wouldn't personally recommend them for a young organist. As I have written elsewhere in the forum, I use a Belwin/Warner Brothers edition which is similarly reasonably priced, well printed and bound. My copy of Symphonies 1-5 came from Chappells. I use Dover for 6-10 with many bits of manuscript pasted in - must do something about it one day!
JC
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Of all the boards I visit, I can only think of one which prevents me being logged in at two computers. In any case, this would not be done by the cookie itself, but by some record at the server.
Paul
Ah, you responded before I got back to amend my post. Agreed it is nothing to do with the cookie, but I was perhaps mistakenly under the impression that Mander's server kept a record. Certainly when I return home after connecting from elsewhere, I have to renew my login. Perhaps just a coincidence?
However, let's hope we can suggest something to make Gareth's life less cumbersome. By the way, anybody with any suggestion as to why my (Creative) mixer panel only loads at startup on Tuesdays when there is an R in the month, I'd be glad to hear from you. Computers...pah...who'd want them. I say "long live the moving iron relay"!
JC
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But the cookie relates to the site, not the machine it's on, so the IP address of your machine is not relevant - after all, some people still connect to the Internet each time they use their machine, and get a new IP for the session by DHCP.
I bow to your greater knowledge, but I think you may be mistaken on this point as my experience is otherwise. To me it is also an essential feature of board security to prevent several people using a single log-in.
JC
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Thanks drd and Vox.
I guess I'm just gonna have to live with it, or perhaps try Firefox. It's just puzzling that this is the only place which doesn't recognize my PC.
I hate unresolved puzzles! Did you check your privacy setting and is a Mander Organs cookie actually being set? On the privacy settings, have you overriden automatic cookie handling on the "advanced" dialogue box? I have removed and reset my login a couple of times to see if I could spot the cause of your log-in problem and it has come back correctly every time. The Mander Organs cookie on my machine is due to expire on January 1st 2020, which suggests it should stay logged in for all practical purposes as long as your IP address remains the same.
One less cheerful thought has just come to me - could anyone else be using your login, without your knowledge, from a different machine? It might be worth changing your password to find out. I certainly have to log-in afresh when I have been visiting my family and used their machine to access the site.
JC
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(Thinks: I hope the 5 minutes within 70 for £12 wasn't a reference to mine!)
I hope you know the answer to that! It's an interesting discussion anyhow, food for thought.
JC
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A lot of incredibly talented musicians contribute to this forum and it occurred to me that a compilation album of tracks performed by members would not just be brilliant, but might also be important.
I can go into HMV tomorrow and buy CDs by Paul Derrett, Nigel Allcoat and Stephen Farr. If we value Justadad's original proposition, surely any such project should stimulate the discovery of new talent hidden in our midst, not just provide a new business opportunity for established artists. I have a cupboard full of CDs that I wish I hadn't bothered buying, but which contain a single track that made them seem worthwhile at the time. I would personally like to have the opportunity to buy individual tracks that interest me, rather than spend £12 for five minutes within a seventy minute disc, most of which will only be heard the once.
But perhaps we should hear the views of those who have contributed to the Organs and Organists Online site, including Musing Muso and Rev. Tony Newnham, which offers free downloads.
JC
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In this digital age, what are the pros and cons of doing this as a "download only" project compared with the manufacture of CDs? A kind of "OurPipe" rather than "YouTube".
JC
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It has me totally baffled, John!
Just out of interest, which page have you bookmarked, once you have successfully logged in?
JC
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Yes, I think I shall have to. I had to log in again this afternoon.
I don't see how it can be IE7 that is at fault if you are successfully logging in to other Invision boards. I have had no problems using IE7 either before or after the recent changes once I started to keep my router permanently powered.
JC
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I agree - an excellent effect.
Would you agree that for that 1', a principal-type tone is likely to be better?
Definitely. And a gemshorn style rank seems an ideal choice.
JC
or Aaaaahhh 
? English can be a strange language!
Bach Organ At Dordrecht
in The Organ
Posted
Without affordable instruments, fewer young players will have the opportunity to take up the instrument. I think that is the greater danger to organ culture.
I note with sadness that in London alone, there is no organ in the Barbican concert hall and a half hearted re-installation in the Royal Festival Hall. Without its "software" i.e. people to play and listen, there is no future for the organ in the UK.
Clearly you believe that you alone know what is right for organ culture and I am labelled a danger if I disagree, so I propose to make no further comment.
JC