Phil T
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Posts posted by Phil T
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A week or so later the vicar told me that he and his wife had met the chap, his wife had liked him and thought him suitable, so he had apointed him.
Hum, sounds familiar. What is it with vicar’s wives picking organists/music/hymns? They (the wives) are members of the congregation like everyone else. I sometimes wonder who wears the trousers. Surely the vicar does what his parish (through the PCC) wants?
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That’s larger than I thought. I thought Chichester with 4 man and 48 speaking stops was about as big as could be comfortably made/played.
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How large? How many Manuals? How many stops?
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The merits of tracker action vice electrical/pneumatic action have been heavily discussed within this forum. One of the limits of tracker action is the size of organ that can be built. My question is: -
What is the largest Tracker action ever built?
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Just for the sake of it -hydraulic systems are veeeeeery sloooooooow.
They can handle huge torques (hence the pic above), but for ornamentings
in Couperin, you might encounter some slight problems!
It would be like shoting on a fly with a bazooka, and a heavy one
-how do you target a moving fly with this thing ?
Stick to the pneumatic.
Pierre
I’m sorry to disagree with you Pierre, and I can only speak from my experience, but I’ve seen hydraulic valves (actuators) operate in less than half a second. This is (I admit) in a system operating at 4000 psi and so is totally different to the system that MM is thinking about. The system that MM is on about is more akin to a cars braking system: The repetition of the ABS facility is still pretty rapid.
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People thought I was mad before, when I suggested on another discussion-board that the perfect compromise between mechanical linkages and EP actions might be hydraulic organ-actions.
Of course, I'm immediately aware of the implications of inertia in fluid-runs, and it would have its limitations, even with some sort of servo assistance. However, fluid is as solid as a mechanical-linkage, and that's the bit that interests me.
Fluids running through small-bore tubing have the advantage that they could totally eliminate stickers, trackers, roller-boards and all the other niceties of mechanical action, whilst retaining direct contact. The only problem is that of coupler actions.
It's just that in this day and age of small, precision components and plastics, it could probably be achieved quite easily. I've dabbled around with brake pistons and tubing, more out of curiosity than anything else, and the smoothness and lack of resistance is impressive, whilst long-term reliablity shouldn't be a problem at all.
just crawl back under a stone...............
MM
Hydraulic system, as in piston under the pallet and piston under the key connected together with small bore pipe full of hydraulic fluid?
Sounds interesting, and on the surface, very plausible.
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I wonder if the same company have thought of producing something along the same lines (but obviously capable of much greater force) to progressively open swell shutters*? A very common problem that is well overdue for a solution.
Ages ago an ex-pilot friend of mine said that all we really needed in the trade was a sort of master/slave system, (as often used in aircraft, apparently) but nobody has yet come up with one.
My own experience of control engineering lies within weapon engineering. It is possible to rotate a gun mount through 360 deg so I’m sure it’s possible to open and close swell shutters. I’m sure the syncros used to achieve this are very similar to that used in the aero industry. I’ve no idea what’s commercially available but I’m sure it’s possible to adapt existing technology for use in an organ.
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Hence the lack of smilies.
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It doesn’t open up a separate window and so is quicker, but then it has fewer facilities.
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Just in case anyone should consider it possible to have an infinitely variable sensor/servo arrangement for organ-action, I think they might find that it would cost a huge amount of money due to the electro-mechanical precision involved in such components.
MM
I agree that if you’re moving several tons around with pin point accuracy, then the cost of a syncro system is very expensive. The syncros used in model aircraft etc are certainly relatively cheap. But then, as you’re only tracking (pallet end) a max of about 20 mm, stepper motors/solenoids can be used instead. Cheaper yet again.
This shows what is available straight off the shelf.
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Talking about authenticity, I recall many years ago when my wife and I were going through our early music/harpsichord phase, and Trevor Pinnock's recordings were normally made on modern copies, thus helping to make the music sound like it would have done when first written, and Christopher Hogwood always seemed to record on old relics which sounded like 300 year old fruit boxes with fencing wire strung across them. You can guess whose CD's we bought most of (but we did get CH's My Lady Nevells Book because that was all done on new fossils).
When I was a young lad (that makes me sound old) I started listening to different styles of organ music. I liked (and still do) much French organ music, mainly Vierne and Widor. Every performance or recording was on an English church/cathedral/concert hall instrument. I got so used to this sound that when I heard this style of music played authentic Cavaille-Col instruments, it just sounded wrong. Ramble ramble ramble……….
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Surely the point of an exact restoration is to preserve our heritage for future generations? Yes, historic designs may be flawed (to our thinking at least) but that is a reflection of the thinking of the time. How many times have you heard cathedrals saying that a particular tonal scheme had been jealously guarded or lamenting tonal alterations that destroyed historic instruments?
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There is also the problem of larger pallets being needed for bass pipes. . Sometimes the lower part of the clavier can be even heavier than the middle and upper parts - especially on older instruments.
I found Sherborne disappointing insofar as the weight of touch is concerned -particularly since new soundboards were constructed, together with a new coupler chassis.
Every day is a learning day.
I hadn't even thought that the weight of touch would/could change as you played up and down the keyboard.
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Hmm - now that is something I hadn't considered - worth noting that the 128 steps are in a magnet travel of 8mm....
The idea is that after the pluck of the pallet has been overcome (and the note starts to sound) the travel (both distance and speed) from that point to the fully open position can be precisely controlled – thereby emulating the control available with mechanical action. Emulating because it is of course a stepped system (all 128 of them) rather than the infinite control offered by tracker action – though I imagine dividing 8mm into 128 steps means the steps are practically imperceptible!
Is this system of musical/aesthetic merit? Should we accept that we need tracker action if we want infinite control and ‘on/off’ action if we want the flexibility offered by electric action?
The way I read it was 8mm of travel divided into 128 steps of 0.064mm. As these steps are so small they would appear to the average user as infinite control.
Sadly my ability at the keyboard doesn’t go beyond a few clumsy cords.
Surely the “feel” provided by tracker action is due to the resistance of the springs, pallet and action? Is the “feel” also due to the audio cue as the pipe starts to speak?
If an organ was built with tracker action but with the pipes speaking into a different room would the player really know (by touch of finger tips) the precise point the pallets opened?
I just don’t know.
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A further problem with very light (modern) tracker actions is the effect sometimes called pallet bounce. If readers have not met this, the characteristic is that if you play firmly and rhythmically, lifting fingers clear of the keys upon release, it is quite possible for some notes to come back up (and pallets to close) so fast that the note actually rebounds and thus plays again, if only briefly. This is not something that ever happens with electro-pneumatic or pneumatic action.
This (valve bounce) is exactly the problem they encountered with high revving engines. How did they solve the problem? Replacing the mechanical cam and valve with a pneumatically operated valve.
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I looked at the Fisk lever. It was interesting how they did it. If you take it one step further, then it’s just good old pneumatic action but with the pneumatic motor (bellows) outside the wind chest.
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Fly by wire cars? Would you market one, sorry, I would not buy it since in order to drive a car you need road contact trough the wheel...
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The car fly-by-wire I was referring to was the throttle linkage.
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I’m sure with the use of Synchros, a system could be designed that would track the fingers, so would feel good yet would also be fast and silent. Modern cars, planes etc have had fly by wire systems for years. The question is, if a Synchro system can provide the “feel”, why on earth would you want or need mechanical action as well?
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How about,
Three Chorale Fantasias-Parry
Sonata in E flat-Bairstow
Rhapsody on a Ground-Statham
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You want to look at articles relating to fluid flow in pipes. There are basically two types of flow; Laminar and Turbulent. Laminar flow gives the smoothest delivery of fluid (air is classed as a fluid). Sharp changes of (pipe) direction will lead to Turbulent flow. This will lead to an un-smooth delivery of fluid. This is normally undesirable in hydraulic and pneumatic applications.
Hope this helps.
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Vierne's Carillon de Westminster from his 24 Pieces de Fantaisie has become so ubiquitous these days that I think we sometimes take it fior granted and forget just what a superb work it is. To rectify matters, may I direct you to a CD by Olivier Latry on BNL recorded at Notre-Dame that includes the CdW.
This CdW really made me sit up. It's not that it's got all the sizzle one would expect from ND - it has. No, what make this performance amazing is the way Olivier Latry takes such joy in really throwing in the kitchin sink, bath tub, you name it, in the final pages that blaze with a white-hot flame. It really is a case of Carillon de Phwoar!!!
Where can I get this CD from, I’ve tried looking on the internet, but no where seems to sell it.
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I rather like the case at Westminster Abbey. The pipes are fairly plain but seem to work because of it. I hate the organ at Kingston parish church with its Perspex shutters, some may find it attractive, but I think it’s awful.
Michelin Stars For Vicars?
in General discussion
Posted
At the church where I sing, the vicar’s wife has taken to choosing the last hymn for the morning service. They’re either those horrible speech rhythm hymns that never seem to work in the formal setting of a church with organ or an old tune with poor words that repeat time and time again.