Phil T
-
Posts
336 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Phil T
-
-
Jeeves and Wooster!
So.........
no, not Gloucester in this case!
I guess we’re talking about the Hope-Jones here, as time can’t be turned that far back?
I have an old (twenty years or more) booklet about the organs of Worcester; it implies that the organs (two) removed by H-J were regarded by many as far superior to the one that replaced them. It also implies that all Worcester wanted was for H-J to make the two organs playable from one console. Hope-Jones, vandal or genius? Depends what side of the fence you happen to be.
-
Fantastic post Paul. The problem seems to be about deciding what the organ is going to be used for. You can produce a fantastic instrument to accompany a choir, or a good recital instrument. The trick is to have a blend of the two. The problem is when those with influence try to move the organ in one particular direction.
-
No sooner had I written this, than I thought about the one phenomenon which has changed more than any other in the past 20 years: the high level of microwave pollution all around us.
I wonder if the electrolytic process is somehow excited by this background level of radiation?
Just a thought!
So we’d better all turn off our mobile phones in church rather than put them to silent?
-
Five little Ducks, sitting on a pond, and the first went "Quack".
R
Am I missing something here?
-
Wow! I trust you are more forgiving with human beings than you seem to be with musical instruments - you're taking no prisoners today, are you?! I hope tomorrow will find you in a more cheerful mood.
Kingston Parish Church - I found it a bit surprising, but a fine organ IMHO. Did you see the television documentary that covered its commissioning and inauguration? I think it was called 'a pipe dream no more'. Considering the brief Frobenius were given, I consider that they did extremely well. The craftsmanship and imagination shown on that job make it well worth the money the church paid for it (250k). Once again, you should have seen/played/heard the previous instrument! Fortunately those responsible at the time were wise enough not to throw more money at it! Incidentally - comparison with a previous instrument is a pretty fair guide - after all, it is the acid test of whether something 'works' in a given acoustic.
I can find a lot to admire in this organ (with the definite exception of the 32' reed) - and it does attract some top recitalists - but I don't really like it; there is something missing and I find it leaves me cold. I'm not really sure why - but I know a few people who feel the same way.As a separate matter, it is rather unattractive and inappropriate visually IMHO.
JJK
This sort of thing is very subjective and a personal. I’m with JJK on this one. There is something about the organ at Kingston that just doesn’t work for me. I can’t put my finger on it, but I find it “leaves me cold” too.
-
Yes. I agree that Delvin's speed is fine. The accompaniment in v.1 is strong enough to support the singers too - and without drowning them. A good start! I was less convinced, though, by the quieter, more flutey combination in v.2 - I couldn't help noticing how the ensemble and tuning become less secure.
For me the speed was a little on the slow side, not by much, but I’d have liked it a little faster. I liked the accompaniment for v2; it gave the choir a firm foundation but didn’t swamp them. Unison for first and last verse is always a good idea; it provides a good lead and bookends the hymn. I did notice a BIG voice (congregation I hope) that sang out of tune for the whole thing.
-
indeed - Father Willis, Wm Hill, Arthur Harrison, T C Lewis - all must have smashed up some decent instruments in order to provide their own, and yet they're now revered. I suppose it was less prevalant in an era where building new churches and town halls was commonplace.
Where it’s nice is when an old instrument ends up largely unaltered in a new location. St James the Great in Barrow is one such example, the organ there was formally at the Chapel Royal of the same name. To me, at least, this is better than the wholesale destruction of a perfectly good instrument. But then, Life goes on.
-
Lawrence Phelps - you mean the organ builder who threw away this:
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N04089
in order to build this:
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N04090
Hmmm.... having never heard the previous instrument, I cannot make an informed judgement. However, I cannot help but wonder whether he did the right thing....
The history of organ building is littered with people who junked old instruments for their own. Hope-Jones (at Worcester) largely junked what was there (before) for his own pipe work. Is it a good or bad thing? That largely depends on your point of view? Some loved the Hope-Jones, others hated it.
-
Sorry - I was in London playing for a school carol service.
Bah! Humbug....
But Sean, think of the enjoyment your playing brings. All that lovely Christmas music, all those happy people.
-
I’d forgotten that the organ at Hampton court (when last rebuilt) had some electronic stops added to it. I’ve only heard it live the once and wasn’t overly impressed with what I heard, but then was that due to the addition of the electronic stops?
There's an account here of the use of Hauptwerk to extend an existing pipe organ. It's written by the man that did the work, and is agent for some of the equipment used. But it looks interesting; I like the simple idea of putting the swell speakers inside the existing swell box.Paul
Interesting article, thanks Paul. I was glad that the chap who did it was sympathetic to the original instrument, adding his own work but not destroying what went before.
-
In the case you quote, you could be right. Hereford is one of my all-time favourites too.
I think once you have electric action, provided that you don't overstrain the wind-system, I can't see any harm in adding stops so long as they do not block the sound from the ones you already have. I have a case in point to offer you, for the purposes of discussion: At HTH we already have almost everything, but there is a huge gulf between the Great Tromba and Posaune - both forte reeds of good quality and the quite splendid Tuba which is fff and proud of it.
From the point of view of wishing to accompany the choir 'in proportion' and not overdoing it every week in a voluntary, I would really like a solo reed between the two volume levels I already have. Will this spoil the organ? No. Will it do harm? no - it will do good. I will be able to save the choir from having to shriek or miss a vital part of some wonderful accompaniments and the congregation will not get blasted quite so many times in final voluntaries. The Tuba can be kept for special occasions. The organ sounds pretty good without it - it was more than a year into my tenure when I first got to hear it in any case!
I respect the need to preserve an antique/irreplaceable console, but that apart, why not add a stop if you have room? What we would ideally like here is a new console and any slight additions to the scheme can go on that and the historic one stay undisturbed. The new one can also have all the 'new' / 'must-have' gadgets.
I realise that these comments will stir up a certain amount of worry amongst the purist wing. Here is a thought, however:
If in the past on any decent organ, stops that were missed by the current organist had simply been added on extra chests and the existing stuff left alone, we would (in fact) have been in a far better position to regain an original sound than if replacement or revoicing of ranks had happened. The classic case, I believe is Durham Cathedral where the late great Conrad Eden had a whole new division and several extra stops added by H&H in the 1970s.....but everything else remained in place (and available). Sensible man.
Actually, I think if you asked most organ-bulders whether they would prefer to stuff a new stop where an old one has been taken out, or to add an extra chest for the new stop, I think I know which they'd pick. One of the problems with the replacement idea is that so often things end up in the wrong place. A reed or a mixture (for instance) needs to stand more-or-less over the pallet. Not only will they speak better, but they are far easier to get to for tuning and maintainance. I have seen (and heard) too many Mixtures which have been placed on old 16' or 8' slides - never the same, trust me!
I’m probably showing my ignorance here (not that unusual), but is there such a thing as a listed organ? Listed buildings have strict guidelines over what can and can’t be altered. I guess the reason why people don’t add stops on new wind chests is down to two things, money and space.
-
Bien sûr, Monsieur. Mint or fruit?
Actually, come to think of it, turning these songs into weighty, serious music might be a good way of putting people off them. Hmm... Now there's a thought...
It is sad that to many people, Christmas music is pop/rock songs and the odd carol played too loudly over a poor PA system. Rudolph the Red nose Reindeer strikes more of a chord to many than Bethlehem Down, sad but true.
-
Checking the editing is obviously good advice but I had previously thought, wrongly, that downloaded scores were simply not acceptable.
Doesn’t that depend or the site that the music was downloaded from?
This site for example, allows you to download and print at will. Having looked at a few pieces, some of the editing is suspect and a few pieces have been transposed into different keys.
-
Oh my....
I did once manage to permanently get rid of "Every star shall sing a carol" with a rather splendid descant... I thought it was entirely in keeping with the spirit of what was there already...
I had forgotten about this particular “gem” (sarcastically said just in case you didn’t realise). I’ve no doubt that when I take my daughter to the kids carol service I’ll be reminded of a few more.
-
The worst hymn I’ve ever come across came from 100 Hymns for Today. I can’t remember its name or the tune but the whole hymn was putting across the point that God was everywhere. The words included: - as big as a Tree, as big as a House, as big as a Nuclear Submarine. AARRRRRRGH
-
I can imagine AndyL being tempted by Paul's, but it might be a bit soon for him - he's not been at Winchester all that long...
Well four years, not a huge amount of time in the great scheme of things I guess.
-
Well no, but to go off at a tangent (slightly)…….Visitors to my local parish church are told that the organ was built by a chap (his name is never mentioned) who once worked for Cavaille-Coll. No idea who this chap was, he may have been a tea boy for all we know.
-
Possibly - but personally, I think that I would have waited to be appointed before resigning. I have known even apparently 'cut and dried' situations to fall apart in certain circumstances.
If he did resign (Adrian Lucas), then that's a very brave move unless he was "asked" to apply for Johns.
If Andy does go to St Paul’s then Winchester will be up for grabs, another prime post.
-
Once again, it seems, I am late to the party. It's good to be back, now lets get on with disagreeing about everything.
-
I think one of the problems is that as we grow old, what we want from a church changes. Whilst it is essential to attract the younger generations to church, it is also important to realise that not all folk want praise songs. All ready the psalms are an unknown for many churchgoers.
-
Instead, very frequently new clergy are faced with what is essentially a pack of lies.
Perhaps clergy have been misinformed during the appointment process, but there are ways of dealing things and ways of dealing with things. The church is the people; drive the people away and the church will crumble.
-
Bad Clergy... gah how familiar
The previous incumbent at my church was a smashing fellow, there for over 15 years, very high church and you didn't get an opinion. Not that anyone wanted an opinion, he was nearly always spot on (though the choir music could be 'what it wanted so long as it was appropriate)
This new 'gentleman' we have, has been here for four years. We still, in a fairly heathenous town of 12,000-ish maintain a boys and mens choir that sings evensong every week (either as boys, men or boys + men)
However he has decided he doesn't want this anymore and we should 'try new things.' So he's trying to form a mixed choir made up of choirboys families and a few old dears who are all over 75... he'll drive them all off.
The hymns are worked out at the start of the boys practice based on 'what we havent had recently.' Needless to say, this hasn't stopped us having 'all for Jesus' every month at least for the last two years, sometimes more.
He still hasn't got the hint despite using a diffrent tune each month.
Also encourages happyclappy as well. and you can't have a go at him, as everyone of the choirmen has done. It's all the choirmasters fault (im ass.organist) for putting them up to it.
Vicars eh?
Why do vicars feel the need to change things at a new parish? A good friend of mine was asked to leave (repeatedly) by the then new vicar, because the vicar saw him as an obstacle in his path for “reforming” the church. Out went Matins, in came “All age/family services”; out went one third of the congregation, in came NOBODY. The vicar was happy though.
-
Bad example - I will think of a better one when I am not quite so tired - and Phil T is not reading this thread!
See here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A790175
In any case, I promised Phil T that we would stop this.
I hope that he can console himself with those words....
Thank you for considering my un-educated feelings. I started reading the BBC link until I got to....
“As with so much of English, it is somewhat illogical in its function, the finer points being confused even by master grammarians”
I bid you gentlemen farewell until we once again collide in cyberspace.
-
I have to learn the Edmundson for a concert in a couple of weeks - can't get into it at all at the moment. Any good recordings you know of, Mr B?
DavidC
Nimbus Records "Christmas from Lichfield" NI 5496.
Played by Andy Lumsden, one word, FANTASTIC.
Organs That Should Have A "historical" Rebuild
in The Organ
Posted
"So there they stood in Quire and Transept, two large organs not so very many yards away from each other. They were tuned to the same pitch, so that they could be used together if so wished............" "Could they be combined so that one person could preside over both? That was the question." "The use of electricity had by now progressed beyond the experimental stage, and there was an organbuilder who was specialising in the use of electric action, namely, Robert Hope-Jones of Birkenhead." "Hope-Jones completed his task in 1896, but much of the pipework of the existing two organs was discarded in favour of his own work"
The instruments removed by H-J? A 3 m (43 Stops) and a 4 m (51 Stops) by Hill. To me it’s a shame that H-J didn’t just combine the two instruments as per the original plan.