Phil T
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Posts posted by Phil T
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Hymns Old and New contains very little genuinely modern music..........Almost everything is set with simplified harmonies in impossibly low keys. It is clearly not intended for choirs.
The words are amended without regard for language or theology. Even children laugh at the alterations.
Barry Williams
Unfortunately I’ve had experience of this hymnbook and everything you say is so true. To say “simplified harmonies” is to do it justice, it’s not that good. At best the harmonies are weak, at worst they’re plain unmusical. You have to wonder what makes a church throw out a perfectly good hymnbook and replace it with H O & N.
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Thank you for explaining that. I think in reality some of us are going to have our own ideas about the scheme. There's cases on either side, but not everyone will remain convinced the old organ needed to go. Best of luck with the new one, I hope it satisfies.
Delvin, I can see that you’re very passionate about this subject, but the decision has been made. We should thank Adrian for sharing all he has and hope he will continue to do so. I’m sure the choices at Worcester were made after much careful thought and with an eye for the future as well as the present.
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If there are such amongst us, perhaps it would be possible to arrange a meeting and come up with an exciting idea for promoting the organ as a worthwhile instrument.
On the other hand ...
... has anyone seen my beaver anorak?
Sean, is there something you're not telling us?
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I don’t like Mission Praise either, but doing in the priest is a little excessive. This question has been asked many times on this board, but why do priests insist on dropping older hymns for anything modern?
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Are there other organ with odd fabrications. I know there is that weird organ in Oxford which looks as if it was made out of plexiglass but I would be interested in hearing of others.
The organ at Kingston parish church has see through swell shutters. I’m not sure what they’re made out of. It’s not an instrument I’m particularly fond of, but I’m sure there are others who think it’s great.
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The job of a cathedral choir is surely to offer God the very best that man can devise in a manner that transports the hearer closer to him and gives some sort of insight into his essence. That is the ideal. Granted, it is often an unattainable ideal, but that should be the goal.
Does a choir that can pick up a piece of music, sight-read it and turn in a performance that manages to get from beginning to end without actually falling apart deserve more respect than a carefully rehearsed, thoroughly moving performance with all the nuances, speeds, dynamics, tuning etc carefully prepared? Not in my book.
You’re right; bringing the scriptures alive is the point of any church/cathedral choir. How they achieve it is, I guess, completely irrelevant. I can’t help but have a touch of respect for those who can sight read to such a high level. How long does the average cathedral choir (not the top line) rehearse for? The rehearsals that I’ve seen (granted not a huge amount) amount to not much more than a balance check with one or two key entries.
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On another, related, topic:
Rumour has it that at a certain cathedral from which Evensong was broadcast earlier this year, the men first saw the canticle setting at the BBC rehearsal on the day (don't know when the boys first saw it). Not that I have any problem with this at all - that's what lay-clerking is all about, after all, isn't it? If you've got a regular team of good men who work well together and know what they're doing, that should be fine.
However, at another cathedral, from which Evensong wil be broadcast later this year, not only will the music have been extensively "dry-run", but there will also be two extra full rehearsals totalling 3½ hours before the day.
Which is the better way to go, and which is the more honest representation of what daily Choral Evensong is all about?
I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, just interested to hear the opinions of others who are involved in the same business.
I’ve often thought what sets apart a cathedral choir from others is their ability to turn up and just sing whatever music is set for the day. Unfortunately, not all cathedral choirs are equal.
I’ve sung at a couple of cathedrals and always after long rehearsals. The long rehearsals usually iron out mistakes but some how rob some of the sparkle. Tiredness nearly always shows up in the voice.
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If that had been the case in England, Worcester might not have got into some of this mess... Personally, I would love to have heard the 1874 Hill in the Transept for which the Elgar Sonata was written. Whilst its position was not brilliant, I reckon it must have been an amazing instrument...
That said, the change in worshipping habits through the end of the 19th century would still have demanded better support for Nave congregations. This we aim to put right when the Nave organ is built.
A
As I’ve said before on this board, if Hope-Jones had stuck to his original brief then you (Worcester) would have two fine Hill organs which could have been played independently from each other or both at the same time from a singular console. But then time travel isn’t possible?
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I’ve just noticed that evensong is coming from Rochester this week. I always look forward to services/recordings from there, as the quality of singing is usually outstanding. I wonder what part DHM will sing? The BBC web site makes no mention if it will be the boys, girls or both singing?
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I am going to Gibraltar next week and am hoping for some information on local organs. I have already got a slot at the RC Cathedral - St Mary the Crown-ed (which, incidentally, appears as 'St Mary the Crowded' on the Gibraltar Tourist Information Office)
I must say, that’s very good of you, I’ve been to Gibraltar many times and never made it to any of the cathedrals although I did run up the rock once. At risk of sounding picky, Gibraltar isn’t an island, it borders with Spain, the border being set by the range of the defending guns of the time. Whilst a visit to the top of the rock is well worth it (to see the apes) so is a visit to St Michaels’ caves.
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It might sound a tad morbid, bit it's worth setting out one's own wishes for when the day comes - for me it's JSB Sei gegrüßet - last 2 variations, with the final one played flat out complete with Bombardon 32!
JS
I’ve always fancied either “Lord, let me know mine end” (Maurice Green) or “I was glad” (Parry) as an anthem and Vierne 6th symphony Final. Strange choices maybe, but I like them.
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I heard recently of a scheme where all couples hoping to get married in the forthcoming year where invited to a kind of 'wedding show' - the church in question presented (With the help of a choir) hymns that were rarely used at Weddings but would strike the right tone, and readings of a similiar nature. It worked quite well.
That’s a good idea, but are these hymns known to the hatching, matching and despatching brigade? I went to my cousins wedding, beautiful church etc, but no choir. Had my dad and I not sung, then it would have been an organ solo for two of the three hymns. When this happens you kind of think, what’s the point of having hymns at all? As for organ music, only the local organist knows what pieces work on their particular organ, and should advise the couple accordingly.
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I suppose most of us have had a request for Morning has Broken to be played at three in the aternoon, but curiously these first two of the year both requested Dear Lord and Father which with its second line in verse 1 and first line in the last verse renders it an interesting choice to say the least.
Best wishes
Peter
One of the problems for blushing brides (and their grooms) is choosing hymns that non-church going people know. “Morning has broken” and Jerusalem are two that are generally well known to the hatching, matching and despatching brigade.
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Despite the variable quality of the choir, the recording at Sacre-Coeur is probably the most authentic recording around in terms of the original Cavaille-Coll sound. Plus the added bonus of Naji Hakim playing the Embrace of Fire.
I have this recording. According to the notes, it was inspired by a concert given to commemorate the rebuilding of the organ. Despite the occasional bout of “pub” singing from the choir, it’s a very good recording.
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If you want to hear some other accompanied responses, try "listen again" for last Sunday Worship on Radio 4. The responses are, I believe, by Roddy Williams and take the whole idea a stage further. Listen out for the collects during the second set, as well as for Robert Houssart on Hammond organ....
I have a feeling there will be some in this discussion who will not appreciate these!!!
Adrian Lucas
Having just listened to Sunday Worship, you’re right Adrian, there will be some who won’t appreciate it. One thing that struck me was how familiar it all was, so I looked back and found THIS.
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Like pcnd I was using "Listen Again", the steaming for which seems even more awful than usual.To be honest, this sounded as if this was exactly what had happened to the broadcast....
.... and, for the record, he is 'Vox' - not 'Voh'....
I too was listening via the internet (listen again), however I only got as far as the first psalm before switching off. This is very much a personal taste thing, but the introit (sorry Cecilia McDowall) just didn’t work for me. Whist the responses and 1st psalm were better, to save any further disappointment, I just switched off.
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Scales from the top down, not from the bottom of the scale up, OO, AA, I, E, A , O, U, etc etc, so it goes on.
R
I assume that these scales (from top to bottom) are post warm up?
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I'm surprised at the level of vitriol in this thread.
I personally don't think the sound sample is the most musical singing for some of the reasons outlined by other correspondents. To be specific I would certainly prefer the musical stress to be on the first and third beats of the bar, and I really think the gap before the word 'morning' is diabolical. Not only does it sound rediculously contrived, but it also ensures that the word 'morning' comes in with a most unmusical thump to my ears.
I'm sure there are many different theories about how to, or whether to, or which, vowel sounds should be modified during singing. I can't entirely go along with the idea that singing is a purely natural exercise and therefore just do what comes naturally. This brings to mind to old joke about the vicar and the gardener...with the punch line "ah but you should have seen what it were like when ee ad it all to imself."
I apologise if anybody found anger in any of my postings, it certainly wasn’t my intention. I read an article that singing is more natural than speech. If I can find the article then I’ll put the link on here. The problem arises when people try to modify vowel sounds or produce notes outside their natural range or at unnatural volumes. This can cause throat problems, which if left uncorrected will eventually cause damage.
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I wonder if anyone has a really successful method for introducing new/unknown hymns to a congregation. I find this to be very problematic. I fully understand that the congregation feel frustrated if there is a hymn that they don't know, but there has to be the possibility of introducing new hymns to them.
A case in point arose yesterday when I picked as the final hymn at the 10:00am eucharist "From glory to glory advancing" to the tune (whose name escapes me) by Holst. It seemed to me to fit yesterday's transfiguration readings really well. I've always thought this to be a very strong and uplifiting hymn, but it was new to my congregation and went like a lead balloon. At least with this particular hymn there is the possibility of using it again a few times to try to get it into peoples' memories, but with other hymns this is not always the case.
I’ve seen two approaches to this quandary.
One, do it as an “anthem” the previous week.
Two, have a small “teach in” before the service proper starts.
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Do we actually speak this word "holy" exactly as it is written anyway, is it even possible? Wouldn't it sound more regional Birmingham if we did, hence the need to change it. The closest I can get to pronouncing it exactly as writ is "Ho-lyy
Don't think it sounds good to be honest. I couldn't agree more about the diaphragm support and relaxed jaw. It's pretty essential really. Add to it a good head tone and you're pretty much there.The English language is littered with odd pronunciations. I live in Helens Borough, which is spelt Helensburgh. In the hymn we’re talking about, the “Ho” falls on the strong beat of the bar and the “lee” on the weak, hence I sing “HO lee” not “ho LEE”.
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At my local church the vicar’s wife chooses the hymns. She likes her happy clappy and dislikes older hymns. Not a week goes by when we don’t get a printed sheet with either words or words and music. Just to show how much thought goes into the choice of evensong hymns, last year we had “Awake, awake, shake off the night”.
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"Ho-li", (my personal preference), or "Ho-lay" if you must. (Persoonally speaking, I think Ho-lay reduces the power and encourages things to go flat).
It's not about getting at a regional dialect because this "Ho-LEE" seems to have crept in in many places. (My roots are firmly in Somerset). I suppose I was spoiled having excellent and respected choirmasters such as Anthony Crossland and Brian Anderson. Not forgetting the late Alan Harwood. when in the Southern Cathedral Singers. I might have been a little spoilt. One of the first things I was taught as a choirboy was not to sing about a chinese man. (I accept that's probably not very PC nowadays).
PC or not, I just don’t get why you/we can’t sing “Holy” as it’s said? I see why you want shading, but that’s how I’d naturally sing it anyway (see previous post). If you sing with a relaxed jaw and a good support of air (diaphragm), then most vowel sounds sort themselves out (as I’m sure has been mentioned by someone else).
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What I mean is, get rid of the last syllable "li" or "lay" or however you want to do it. I wouldn't want it snatched ,but I would look for the second syllable of the the word to be of less power than the first. (As is the case with many two syllable words appearing at the end of a line). To me, singing a soft "li" and lifting would do the trick so far as I am concerned because I'd be looking for a weak but focussed vowel at that juncture and in that context. Perhaps others wouldn't be happy with that.
As you say, it’s very much down to personal preference. I’d be inclined to stress the first syllable rather than reduce or change the second.
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err, that was my point.
Ah, I must learn to read properly.
Back to these vowel sounds then.
Don't think it sounds good to be honest. I couldn't agree more about the diaphragm support and relaxed jaw. It's pretty essential really. Add to it a good head tone and you're pretty much there.
Complete Mission Praise
in General discussion
Posted
How about doing some music by Moore, Shephard, Archer, or slightly older, Leighton, Mathias etc, or is that not the sort of modern choral (s)he was referring to?