Jonathan Lane

I've listened to it more than once, but its quite a marathon at the speed he plays it! However I do think modern players play it to fast (myself included!) Jonathan

I have a least two editions based on the original publications (I also have the Titterington, which I actually find harder to use because of its landscape layout). It is interesting that there are many discrepancies between the editions, and as I have always understood it, these were Widor's own revisions. As far as the Toccata is concerned these are matters ranged from the tempo to actual notes. However, looking at various editions of the other symphonies is even more interesting, I have at least two versions of each symphonie, and in some cases three (French edition, Dover and Kalmus), all different in many respects. I don't have them in front of me, but if I remember correctly in the second or third symphonie there are even different movements compared to other editions. Again it is my understanding (and this has been gained by word of mouth and opinion, so I cannot back it up with authoritative proof, and I'm sure the more learned here will correct me if I'm wrong) that the French editions are the latest versions of Widor's own proofing and the Dover is a much earlier edition, but nevertheless no less interesting, in fact possible more so. One thing that is certain is that the various stages of development of the pieces are a rare chance to see a composer's revisions in print. Jonathan

When I was a Christ Church, as successor to Paul, I played it for a wedding. It was a particularly unrewarding instrument, but how much of that was due to the carpeting and other things in the church. However, it strikes me as very short sighted to get rid of it, as Paul says, what about funerals, weddings, etc. and who knows what the future will bring. Jonathan

The church has been empty for a while, and has had major structural issues meaning it is pretty damp, it was only 4 degrees C in the church on Monday. Jonathan

Interesting point this, and after spending a day dismantling a Norman & Beard yesterday I had intended to post a question. I removed a rank of Rohr Flute pipes. All the metal pipes had cork stoppers pierced with a chimney made of pipe metal. Has anyone experienced this before. Needless to say that the stoppers are crumbling somewhat after nearly 100 years. Jonathan

Thanks Tony, I believe most people here are very grateful for everything you and the other 'staff' of the NPOR do, we already have a tremendous resource, and I would hate to see it lost or less accurate. I use it for many things, not least researching historical things like the current Lewis thread here, but, I sometimes just use the neighbourhood search function. I find it fascinating to discover instruments of which I had no knowledge! Jonathan

There is a Lewis & Co organ at St. Luke's Kingston, which I believe is about to be restored (conservatively I hope). It is unusual in having the Solo as the third manual, and having a Carillon stop, which I think are actually tubular bells (not quite sure). I played it last year, and NPOR states that it was originally by C H Walker in c.1860, rebuilt by T. C. Lewis in 1905 and again by Lewis & Co in 1919 (14 years later!). There was subsequent work by E. J. Johnson, but this appears to have just been cleaning. I have a booklet somewhere, I will dig it out. Jonathan

I echo David's comment, NPOR is a wonderful resource, and deserves recognition for the fantastic job that is being done, pretty much unfunded as I understand it. They are slow at posting information, but that I suspect is partly to check accuracy of data. I value it enormously, and would hate to see it be any less accurate than it is. If anyone wants to start a wiki-style resource, I am sure there is space for that too, but my main source will continue to be NPOR. I only wish all countries were as methodical in their registration of organs past and present. Jonathan

St. Martin's, is strictly in Lower Bourne and is the daughter church of St. Thomas-on-The Bourne (hence my interest). St. Thomas is not the parish church of Farnham, St. Andrew's is. St. Thomas is the parish church of The Bourne, a suburb of Farnham, although I suspect they wouldn't like being called a suburb! In my understanding Farnham is and always has been in Surrey (just - the boundary with Hampshire is about half a mile outside the town boundary.) GD&B did build an organ at 'our' St. Martin's Lower Bourne, and John Foss was organist of St. Thomas-on-The Bourne. Methinks Mr Forsyth-Grant got his boundary wrong. Jonathan

Unless I have missed it in the quick trawl of the thread, one not yet mentioned is the three manual at Holy Trinity, West Hill, Wandsworth. 31 speaking stops, built in 1889, and whilst it has been cleaned and maintained over the years (all by the Willis firm), hasn't been altered. It is a very good instrument, but suffers from a chancel chamber position and a general poor acoustic in the church (it would be far better down the road at All Saints!) Jonathan

Hear, hear, especially true at St. Martin's, where the acoustic is pretty much dead, there's nothing much that can be done. However, I would still prefer a pipe organ over the Allen. Jonathan

I actually cut out the bar's rest, as it ruins the form of the song, it doesn't make any sense to have that one line a whole bar longer than the rest. Jonathan

It is difficult to give an estimated figure as it depends on many factors, including, size, complexity of construction/action, state of existing installation. I believe Barry Williams made a comment on another thread, that rarely would you be able to just transplant an organ, but it made need more than basic maintenance, i.e. re-bushing, etc. To give some facts, and organ the size of the one on eBay in this thread, would take two people approximately two weeks to dismantle, and would take a largish lorry to transport. It would then take about four weeks to put back together before any work on the maintenance aspect, checking the voicing, and retuning takes place. So one can assume that the £750 sale price is really quite a small part of the cost! Jonathan

Try singing it, rather than playing it, it then makes sense. Even though I have a pretty good lung capacity I can't get through the whole verse without running out of breath. Jonathan

Thanks John, that helps enormously, anything else you know, about St. Martin's or indeed St. Thomas gratefully received as I preparing a pamphlet on the music history of the church. Contact me off list if that helps. Jonathan

I'm sure people didn't mean to squash you. I think people here are pretty well meaning by their comments. My experience has always been that, whilst you need to get them through the door, and often something fun aimed at children is useful, they often come for the 'real' thing. I have found this in the past with organ pupils, but more significantly find it all the time at present with the choirs. They prefer 'real' music, and are highly critical of anything inferior, whatever its genre or period. Last Sunday the girls & men sang: Farrant: Call to remembrance, Tomkins Responses, Byrd: Second Service and Amner: I will sing under the Lord (verse anthem version, not the other one). On Monday, some of them said how much they enjoy this music. When we go into schools to recruit, we do an excercise or two with the whole school (usually one by Barry Rose I believe based on football teams), but they always sing a real piece, even if it is a popular one, last time 'Panis Angelicus'. I think it is an excellent idea to offer opportunities for young people to experience the organ. However, I'm always worried about people's perception of what children and young people like. I remember going to a conference/workshop at Worth Abbey where the keynote speaker was the Abbot. He told the story of a service they held one evening, a choir prayerful service, where there was a small group of teenagers/early twenties present. Afterwards, he spoke to them, and asked if they had enjoyed the service. They said that, yes that had, it was very peaceful and quiet and they relished that experience. They said they had tried a few 'house churches' on the south coast, where the music was led by a group of aging rockers, trying to reclaim their youth by offering what they thought young people wanted, but it had been a complete turn off, what they really wanted was peace and quiet and time to think about life and reflect. The Abbot asked these young people what they did, and the said they were a rock band. Jonathan

Hear hear. Jonathan

Keith Hearnshaw does a good line in these, aimed specifically at children rather than teenagers plus, playing a mixture of music, demonstrating the organ, and bring pipes for them to see, handle, blow etc., they are very well received. Jonathan

Excellent, good to see the progress. Jonathan

We can be slightly less pessimistic, as the play list is up for Saturday. Last item: Nicolas Clerambault: Caprice sur les Grands Jeux Michel Chapuis (organ) Jonathan

Might work in a dry church acoustic, but in a room, which is inevitably small, my ears wouldn't like it! On the other hand if one had a Great Hall, well the possibility is highly desirable. Jonathan

I agree about a 16 Subbass, in an ideal world, a 16 stop is essential, and if there is space, extending from a Stopped 8' seems sensible. As much as I like a good Voix Celeste, it does become wearing in a very dry acoustic, and in a room it would be a waste of a stop in my view, especially on our tight premise. Jonathan

Hence my suggestion about a lightly voiced Oboe. I wouldn't see the point in using a 2', unless one has a very big music room! Jonathan

I would go for something like this: Manual I Lieblich Gedact 8 Gemshorn 4 Manual II Lieblich Gedact 8 (transmission from Manual I) Chimney Flute 4 Flageolet 2 Pedal Lieblich Gedact 8 (transmission from Manual I) Gemshorn 4 (transmission from Manual I - useful for pedal choral solo's) Tremulant to whole organ. I would go for mechanical action, but like the stop list, this is personal taste! If you wanted a small read, say an Oboe, you could replace the Flageolet, or go for 5 ranks! Jonathan

I have to agree about the Elgar Sonata first movement, it is extremely effective on its own. Also, Bairstow's 'Toccata Prelude on Pange Lingua' works very well for me, and its unusual structure, ending quietly adds enormously to its effectiveness. But what about earlier works, many of the Stanley Voluntaries, and the Boyce Voluntaries, especially the first. And, even earlier, works by Byrd, Tallis, Cosyn, Tomkins, etc., all really excellent. Back to the 20th Century, how about John Cook's 'Fanfare', and from the 19th Century, Wesley's Fugue from 'Choral Song and Fugue'. They all do it for me. This only leaves me with one thought, I'm glad I don't have to choose only one. Jonathan