innate Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Actually it's far from good - their hymn book is "Baptist praise and Worship" which is pretty poor - and badly afflicted by the "lets modernise the words" disease started by "Hymns for the People" (it's much the same vintage). They also have Mission praise 1, which isn't much help either. I'm as much a fan of the old words as anybody but there is a progressive part of me that appreciates that "man" may be perceived as exclusive, whatever the linguistic history of the word, for example. From a purely pragmatic point of view churches need to decide whether they risk alienating more people by changing the words or by leaving them as they are. One of the keenest advocates I know for eliminating "thee"s and "thou"s is proud of his Yorkshire roots yet seems unaware that those words are still much in use in many parts of the country. In the parts of the C of E that use modern language for all the liturgy it seems slightly perverse to cling to the archaisms that litter, say, The New English Hymnal - on the other hand the integrity of The Church's One Foundation would be severely compromised by altering the final Thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Tsk Tsk dear Father! There's so much to be said for getting the faithful to look up from their books and sing with lungs full of air - unlike those nasty people who frequent weddings and mumble through Praise My Soul, Make Me A Channel of Your Peace and Now Thank We All Our God! You could screw the fittings for the screen quite nicely to those organ pipes in the picture attachment to your emails (just as they did in the Pentecostal Church (once a proud Welsh Calvinistic Methodist conventicle) in Colwyn Bay .... I'm just looking for a place to put a screen in our Parish Church. I am totally unrepentant - the two local Baptist churches have screens and I always end up with a cricked neck after looking up at them. Incidentally it's probably even worse for the breathing to raise the head at an angle than it is to sing with the head slumped down. Most of our display pipes are lightweight dummies and would not hold the weight of a screen - and I wouldn't trust most of those who've had charge of this church in the past to know or tell the difference. On a more serious note, when the worship is liturgical (which it almost always is here) do you think people should be encouraged to focus on anywhere but the altar and ambo, or relevant movements? When I was teaching (History) we used to use TV programmes from time to time, but it took a lot of training for the children to concentrate on what they should have been learning rather than using it as a background, as the TV screen is in so many homes. I suspect the same is the case for large screens in pubs and other places. I would rather they concentrated on the wondrous events taking place in front of them, which to their credit they mostly do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newnham Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I am totally unrepentant - the two local Baptist churches have screens and I always end up with a cricked neck after looking up at them. Incidentally it's probably even worse for the breathing to raise the head at an angle than it is to sing with the head slumped down. Hi Which means that the screen is too high. The bottom should be no more than 4-5ft above floor level. My elderly congregation here at Heaton prefer the screen to messing about with books - the only complaints we've had were from local Anglicans who joined us for a joint service and didn't know what to do with their hands! The real problem with projection is that many churches don't do it properly. Every Blessing Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fairhurst Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 The problem we find with the "electronic hymnbook" is that the words are never quite what you're expecting. We have a hymnsheet most Sundays, which enables us to choose from AMNS, CH4, CP and a few others of which I will not speak the name. This is, by and large, what the congregation sing from - sometimes we'll put the words up on a projector too. But, of course, the choir need the music, so they stick with their copies of AMNS; and the words are never quite the same as those on the songsheet, which come from SongPro (I think it's called). It gets very frustrating. Incidentally, I'm interested to see that CH4 is now available in a new binding as "Hymns of Glory, Songs of Praise" - a deliberate attempt by Canterbury Press to market a Church of Scotland hymnbook outside the Church of Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Which means that the screen is too high. I had worked that one out. Unfortunately they don't have anywhere else to put the things. You don't seem to address the other issues. I'm no nearer to becoming a convert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I'm not convinced by hymns on projector screens either. With a book or sheet in each person's hands a worshipper can 1. hold them the correct focal distance for their personal needs 2. tilt them to avoid excess light when the sun shines. There may be answers to these two that render a screen the best option, but if so I've never seen them in use. I have to say two things always fill me with gloom when visible upon entering an unfamiliar but venerable church, a drumkit and a projector screen. It is curious how often the two seem to go together, and together with a certain style of churchmanship too. I don't think that projector screens and organs are mutually exclusive in worship, but they can't be far from this point. I cover the ground pretty well at weddings and funerals, but so far I've never seen wedding hymns up on a screen or a funeral led by a rock group; I lead a sad life I know. A church where I used to be organist and choirmaster many years ago has been seeded by a 'prominent' and 'successful' Christian church of whom we have all heard. The first thing to be done, so far as my wife and I could see was the installation of a state of the art sound system complete with a console of significant size. This went in before the holes in the roof were attended to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Morley Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 A church where I used to be organist and choirmaster many years ago has been seeded by a 'prominent' and 'successful' Christian church of whom we have all heard. The first thing to be done, so far as my wife and I could see was the installation of a state of the art sound system complete with a console of significant size. This went in before the holes in the roof were attended to. True enough, Paul, but they did keep the organ; which remains maintained and in use (if not in pristine condition) to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 Ok, just returning to the original topic.... I met with the Vicar of one of my churches today, and it seems he is coming around to the idea of having Common Praise, and has abandoned thoughts of purchasing Hymns Old & New, which I think would have been a disastrous choice. I think a lot of this stems from comments he has read on this board. Thanks. We talked about having a supplementary hymn book which has some of the better of the most up-to-date modern offerings, such as Iona, Taizé &c as we don't feel that there is one hymn book which would do everything that he and I would both like. So, folks, if we purchase Common Praise (which I think we shall), are there any recommendations for a supplementary hymn book, please? Incidentally, we've decided that projecting words on a projector screen with Powerpoint isn't suitable in this situation. All suggestions gratefully received. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Incidentally, we've decided that projecting words on a projector screen with Powerpoint isn't suitable in this situation. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 They also have Mission praise 1, which isn't much help either. Every Blessing Tony No - but it is quite combustible, so it can save the church money on winter fuel bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 ... - the only complaints we've had were from local Anglicans who joined us for a joint service and didn't know what to do with their hands! Every Blessing Tony Well, thank God for small mercies.... ("Hands down if you want coffee...") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newnham Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Well, thank God for small mercies.... "Hands down if you want coffee...") Hi We are NOT that sort of church! (Not that I would want to deny those who are confortable worshipping in that setting from doing so). Every Blessing Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Hi We are NOT that sort of church! (Not that I would want to deny those who are confortable worshipping in that setting from doing so). Every Blessing Tony Well, quite. No offence intended. Having had direct experience of this type of church (clearly not your own), I may be more 'anti' than some others here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 Back to topic.....! Any suggestions then, please, folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Back to topic.....! Any suggestions then, please, folks? I think you may find we're avoiding the question. At least I am, because after much careful research I still haven't found a suitable volume that contains an adequate selection of ditties which we would actually use. Thus the better solution would be to avoid purchasing books at all, which leads to the thought that a proj... We're reviewing the situation. There are worse collections from this point of view than the various incarnations of HON, and while I agree that many of the arrangements are sadly lacking (and too many of the words are bowdlerised) it's always possible to use another book for the accompaniment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrabombarde Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 My elderly congregation here at Heaton prefer the screen to messing about with books - the only complaints we've had were from local Anglicans who joined us for a joint service and didn't know what to do with their hands! Tony OK; it's Saturday afternoon and I'm feeling mischievous so here's a couple of suggestions about what Tony's congregation could do with their hands. No apologies for any offence caused... How many Charismatics does it take to change a light bulb? One, since his/her hands are in the air anyway. How many Baptists does it take to change a light bulb? The whole congregation needs to vote on it! How many Anglo-Catholics does it take to change a lightbulb? None. They always use candles instead. How many conservative Anglicans does it take to change a lightbulb? Three. One to change it and two to storm out in protest if the person changing it is a woman! How many Brethren does it take to change a light bulb? Change????? How many Evangelicals does it take to change a light bulb? Evangelicals do not change light bulbs. They simply read out the instructions and hope the light bulb will decide to change itself. How many Atheists does it take to change a lightbulb? You can ask them to change it as often as you like, but they'll still remain in darkness. Oh, and finally... How many organists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. - One to do it, and one to make a really dumb remark about how much quicker and easier it would be to change, if it had pistons. Contrabombarde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think you may find we're avoiding the question. It looks that way! Thus the better solution would be to avoid purchasing books at all, which leads to the thought that a proj... We're reviewing the situation. We talked about that, but it really wouldn't be viable in this particular church building. There are worse collections from this point of view than the various incarnations of HON, and while I agree that many of the arrangements are sadly lacking (and too many of the words are bowdlerised) it's always possible to use another book for the accompaniment. My other church uses a Mayhew book as a supplement (New Hymns and Worship Songs, supplementing AMNS) and many of the arrangements in NHWS are ghastly, and I tend to rearrange most of them as I go. Aren't there any takers here who are willing to suggest a useful supplement for Common Praise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Harvey Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 For a suplement to your new hymn book, what about making your own? We did this a few years ago as we didn't want to replace AMNS. We've never looked back. We chose the hymns we wanted - there's a smattering of Taize, Iona, modern tunes and worship songs - about 70 in total. The CCL licenses will allow you to make a booklet of words and music for your church - and with desktop publishing, all you need is a printer to produce the booklets. We looked to the people who print our monthly parish to produce it - an A5 booklet with a couple of staples and card covers is fine - one of the congregation, who is a talented artist did a delightful cover with St. Cecilia playing the organ and our church in pre-raphaelite style. It doesn't matter if it's really cheaply made - we made ours to be replaced every 5 years or so, when we can review what we don't use, see what else we'd like to include and produce a new version. For example, our supplement doesn't include "make me a channel of your peace" (which I'm very pleased about) but does include hymns by Malcolm Archer and "When the Music Fades" - a worship song which is completely unsingable by a normal congregation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 Thanks, Colin. That sounds like a very good idea! If nothing which is already in print turns out to be suitable, I think this could easily - well, relatively! - be the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Harvey Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I found it was easier than expected to do. I sat down with a couple of people, wrote out what we wanted, shared it with the PCC and music focus group for a rubber stamp and got on making it. Most books of worship songs come with a CD of the words so it's quite easy to get them onto paper (the church will need at least one copy for CCL licensing purposes). With the other hymns, the cyber hymnal is good place to start - again, as long as the church owns an original copy. In the end, i remember we only needed to key in a handful onto the computer. After that, we gave it to the printers and a few days later, they were ready for delivery. All for the princely sum of about £25 for a run of 500... Obviously, we can't share the hymnbooks or sell them on to other people but if you'd like to see what we chose, PM me and I'll send through the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I found it was easier than expected to do. I sat down with a couple of people, wrote out what we wanted, shared it with the PCC and music focus group for a rubber stamp and got on making it. Most books of worship songs come with a CD of the words so it's quite easy to get them onto paper (the church will need at least one copy for CCL licensing purposes). With the other hymns, the cyber hymnal is good place to start - again, as long as the church owns an original copy. In the end, i remember we only needed to key in a handful onto the computer. After that, we gave it to the printers and a few days later, they were ready for delivery. All for the princely sum of about £25 for a run of 500... Obviously, we can't share the hymnbooks or sell them on to other people but if you'd like to see what we chose, PM me and I'll send through the list. This is a solution we have shied away from - but if it really is as easy as you say... Thanks for this very helpful suggestion. You'll certainly be getting a PM from me as well!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 PM sent. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fairhurst Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Aren't there any takers here who are willing to suggest a useful supplement for Common Praise? Do have a look at 'Common Ground', edited by John Bell, St Andrews Press. You might also find this splendid volume a worthy contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 Do have a look at 'Common Ground', edited by John Bell, St Andrews Press. Thanks Richard. You might also find this splendid volume a worthy contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHM Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Slightly (but only very slightly) off-topic - I would heartily recommend the Guild of Church Musicians' Study Guide No C9: "Seriously Silly Hymns" by Anne Kennedy and EH Warrell. It starts by doing a brilliant job of deconstructing "Colours of day", phrase by phrase, line by line, and much more. Worth every penny! And one more to add to Contrabombarde's "How many....?" questions: How many sopranos to change a light bulb? - One. And nine more to stand around crying "Why didn't he pick me?!" (Which reminds me - I've put down Stanford in G for our final Evensong at the end of the month.) Ducking and running for cover..... Douglas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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