Vox Humana Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Forgive me if this is straying closer to theology than to music, but what evidence is there that God enjoys the B Minor Mass more than Daisy, Daisy? David Hitchin To play Devil's advocate... actually that's hardly the right term here, is it? Anyway, IMHO it shouldn't be about guessing what God might or might not enjoy, which we cannot presume to know (assuming she exists, of course), but about offering God the best that mankind has to offer in whatever imperfect circumstances obtain - which I suppose could in theory mean playing Caleb Simper if that is all you can play well. The "God will accept anything we offer sincerely" argument is a presumption and a cop-out IMO. How do we know that God doesn't expect high standards from us in our worship? Such a view is by no means incompatible with love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Forgive me if this is straying closer to theology than to music, but what evidence is there that God enjoys the B Minor Mass more than Daisy, Daisy? David Hitchin Sorry to rise to the bait, but who says that worship is for the purpose of entertaining God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sorry to rise to the bait, but who says that worship is for the purpose of entertaining God? Hear, hear! However, IMHO, funeral services don't have much to do with worship, but are geared towards helping the mourners move on with their grieving process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Fowler Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Hear, hear! However, IMHO, funeral services don't have much to do with worship, but are geared towards helping the mourners move on with their grieving process. Round here funerals often have a theme of the `celebration of the life' of the deceased and recently as such, a much loved local farmer died. We had over 450 present, from all over the County, squeezed into the church. I was asked to play the coffin in to "To be a a Farmers Boy", play it out to a soft and slow "D,ye ken John Peel" (the deceased was a great horseman) and as soon as it had left the church, "The Post Horn Gallop" to take us all to the pub in a jolly mood. Despite what you might think I ought or ought not to have played the music made this one of the most moving funerals I have experienced. The family and mourners were well pleased. FF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 (Belgian humor ON): Nobody ever asked the dead ? (belgian humor OFF) Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Hear, hear! However, IMHO, funeral services don't have much to do with worship, but are geared towards helping the mourners move on with their grieving process. To see you write this makes me sad beyond imagining. A priest doesn't have to ram religion down people's throats or ignore the grieving process in order to ensure that worship takes place at a funeral. I am a fan of many of the prayers suggested in the Common Worship provision for, among other things, funerals. I do find, however, that material is lacking that gently offers a resurrection vision for the departed, and it is very hard to find a great deal there to help focus on the continuation of life into eternal life. Indeed, on occasion I have found myself writing my own prayers for memorial services where I think a focus on the future of the dead is as important as the celebration of the past - not least in helping the grieving process. It might betray my own background, and certainly the tradition of this parish, if I say that a Requiem Mass supplies the best funeral of all, with the real and living connection with the Communion of Saints. I have certainly ordered one for my own funeral (along with some rousing hymns)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 To see you write this makes me sad beyond imagining. I'm sorry to hear that, Patrick. That was far from my intention. A priest doesn't have to ram religion down people's throats or ignore the grieving process in order to ensure that worship takes place at a funeral. I'm pleased to hear that you feel that you are worshipping at funeral services. However, I wonder how many of the mourners actually feel that they are there to worship. I think they are probably there to pay their respects to the deceased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 I am convinced of two things:1. If God exists, he must be pro-music, all music. 2. That our intentions matter. Paul I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. Whilst I am sure that God approves of music per se, that does not mean to say s/he would approve of its abuse, or being put to sinister or tasteless use. For example, rap music, which seems to me in many cases to advocate rape, mueder, gang warfare, drugs and so on, cannot be considered to be in the same category as music deliberately created to glorify God, which is pretty well most of Bach, Messiaen and many others. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Paul I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. Whilst I am sure that God approves of music per se, that does not mean to say s/he would approve of its abuse, or being put to sinister or tasteless use. For example, rap music, which seems to me in many cases to advocate rape, mueder, gang warfare, drugs and so on, cannot be considered to be in the same category as music deliberately created to glorify God, which is pretty well most of Bach, Messiaen and many others. Peter That's why my second comment 'That our intentions matter' is important. The appropriateness or otherwise of music, just as the appropriateness of anything we do is closely related to 'why' it's being done. Music used to spread hatred is a fairly rare phenomena (though the French National Anthem woulsd appear to do this every time it is sung) but this is covered - if inflammatory material is being sung deliberately to antagonise, my rider covers this. CAUTION! Rant and tangent alert!! Like many of you, I imagine, I have a problem with certain 'modern' (there's a laugh!) hymns. For me, though, the problem only arises in certain services and/or certain churches. If I have to play a quite probably musically weak, verbally trite hymn in a church where this is regular fare and everyone is going to be able to join in, I have far, far less problem with it. My problem comes when this is a new diet being given to people who are unfamiliar with it and unlikely to be able to join in. Characteristic reasons we have all heard for using such new material are '..it'll appeal to the young' or '..traditional hymns put people off'. In my last post, the well-intentioned and decent vicar had an extremely annoying habit of putting down unknown items precisely when there was going to be a big event and new people in church. Just once during my two years there, I saw him get a taste of his own medicine. In a united service, a rock band from another church struck up with something none of us knew. My vicar was forced to stand there making half-hearted goldfish impressions because he wasn't able to join in, however hard he tried. Did he learn from this experience? Are bears Catholic and does the Pope .... in the woods? Now if he wanted to introduce a hymn, something he seriously approved of and for all the best reasons wanted to add it to the general repertoire, he should have put the new item down more than once before the big service. Then the congregation would not have been as embarrassed as the newcomers on the Big Day. Mind you, that would have required forethought and planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwhodges Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Now if he wanted to introduce a hymn, something he seriously approved of and for all the best reasons wanted to add it to the general repertoire, he should have put the new item down more than once before the big service. Then the congregation would not have been as embarrassed as the newcomers on the Big Day. Mind you, that would have required forethought and planning. When I played in a church, the vicar would introduce a completely new hymn with a congregational practice, replacing the sermon. He would speak about the hymn and why it was being introduced, and then they would be taught the tune; the hymn would then be sung in place later in the service to strengthen the memory. It seemed to work for us, and certainly eased the grumbles of a highly traditional country village congregation. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 That's why my second comment 'That our intentions matter' is important. The appropriateness or otherwise of music, just as the appropriateness of anything we do is closely related to 'why' it's being done. Music used to spread hatred is a fairly rare phenomena (though the French National Anthem woulsd appear to do this every time it is sung) but this is covered - if inflammatory material is being sung deliberately to antagonise, my rider covers this. Point taken Paul! P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 When I played in a church, the vicar would introduce a completely new hymn with a congregational practice, replacing the sermon. He would speak about the hymn and why it was being introduced, and then they would be taught the tune; the hymn would then be sung in place later in the service to strengthen the memory. It seemed to work for us, and certainly eased the grumbles of a highly traditional country village congregation. Paul Now there is a vicar who knows what he's doing and why. Lucky you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombarde32 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Now there is a vicar who knows what he's doing and why.Lucky you! I agree, Cynic; definitely the exception rather than the rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 Well I did Daisy in a Philip Glassy style which seemed to go down OK. Forgot to mention that they also had the "Clap Clap" Gloria. (A Gloria at a funeral Mass? Yes, that's what I thought.....). Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair McEwan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Well I did Daisy in a Philip Glassy style which seemed to go down OK. Forgot to mention that they also had the "Clap Clap" Gloria. (A Gloria at a funeral Mass? Yes, that's what I thought.....). Peter I am sure the mourners appreciated your Daisy interpretation - nice one Peter! Perhaps the "Clap Clap Gloria" was featured as a tribute to the deceased who I suspect was wearing her celestial tap shoes. Alistair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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