Leeds Cathedral

[saundersbp]

Please find some information regarding the organ at Leeds Cathedral for the interest of members.

 

The instrument was removed in 2005 to Bonn when the Cathedral was closed for restoration. It is being restored and reconstructed with new sections for the reordered sanctuary above the new location of the choir stalls at the east end.

 

The scaffolding is now being put up to facilitate the delivery of the instrument which will occur in July and October.

 

There are photos of work in progress in Bonn here together with other pictures from the new organ for St Patrick's in Huddersfield

 

Both specifications can be found here

 

I can update the photos as work progresses if its of any interest to members

 

Benjamin Saunders

[Guest Cynic]

Please find some information regarding the organ at Leeds Cathedral for the interest of members.

 

The instrument was removed in 2005 to Bonn when the Cathedral was closed for restoration. It is being restored and reconstructed with new sections for the reordered sanctuary above the new location of the choir stalls at the east end.

 

The scaffolding is now being put up to facilitate the delivery of the instrument which will occur in July and October.

 

There are photos of work in progress in Bonn here together with other pictures from the new organ for St Patrick's in Huddersfield

 

Both specifications can be found here

 

I can update the photos as work progresses if its of any interest to members

 

Benjamin Saunders

 

 

If you're asking for opinions, I would certainly be interested to follow progress as these projects develop, I'm sure many others would be also.

[DHM]

If you're asking for opinions, I would certainly be interested to follow progress as these projects develop, I'm sure many others would be also.

May one ask what will happen to the Phoenix organ when the Klais is installed?

[Pierre Lauwers]

May one ask what will happen to the Phoenix organ when the Klais is installed?

 

Dropped in the Severn maybe ?

 

Pierre

[andyorgan]

I think you mean the Aire. By Severn, you are confusing it with the cathedral that had one pretty good organ from Rogers (which they have to hand back) and the dreadful one before it, that probably is already in the Severn.

[Pierre Lauwers]

I think you mean the Aire. By Severn, you are confusing it with the cathedral that had one pretty good organ from Rogers (which they have to hand back) and the dreadful one before it, that probably is already in the Severn.

 

Indeed: "Rejoice in the water, ye canticles bins and toasters, that ye decay

in particles, join Bristol an then vanish into the sea".

 

(Traditional belgian hymn)

 

Pierre

[Henry Willis]

The instrument was removed in 2005 to Bonn when the Cathedral was closed for restoration. It is being restored and reconstructed with new sections for the reordered sanctuary above the new location of the choir stalls at the east end.

 

There are photos of work in progress in Bonn here together with other pictures from the new organ for St Patrick's in Huddersfield

 

Both specifications can be found here

 

May one ask why Klais for the rebulding of a 1903 Norman & Beard? And Skrabl?

 

DW

[AJJ]

The two nearest examples of Klais' work to me - both involving much older masterial - albeit in vastly different styles and 'present manifestation' are very fine musical instruments. In each case Klais were certainly well able to do the required work - that's not of course to say that other firms could not have done as well.

 

A

[Guest Cynic]

The two nearest examples of Klais' work to me - both involving much older masterial - albeit in vastly different styles and 'present manifestation' are very fine musical instruments. In each case Klais were certainly well able to do the required work - that's not of course to say that other firms could not have done as well.

 

A

 

Naturally I wish any scheme well, though AJJ's point is well made that there are other firms who could provide equally good work nothing like so far from Leeds. Of course, employing a firm from mainland Europe means that the work when complete will have to be paid for in Euros. Jolly UK purchasers are going to get a shock when they realise the huge change in price since these contracts were placed. By my reckoning, Euros are now worth at least 30% more than they were a year ago; put another way, it will take more than £3k to get from Europe what would have cost £2k a year ago.

 

Am I right those of you who can do sums?

[bombarde32]

May one ask why Klais for the rebulding of a 1903 Norman & Beard? And Skrabl?

 

DW

 

 

Because, like it or not, we are in Europe now and I suppose the tendering process has to be totally transparent. That means that even Foreign builders have to get a look in.

 

Would Willis have done as good a job for the same money?

[andyorgan]

Naturally I wish any scheme well, though AJJ's point is well made that there are other firms who could provide equally good work nothing like so far from Leeds. Of course, employing a firm from mainland Europe means that the work when complete will have to be paid for in Euros. Jolly UK purchasers are going to get a shock when they realise the huge change in price since these contracts were placed. By my reckoning, Euros are now worth at least 30% more than they were a year ago; put another way, it will take more than £3k to get from Europe what would have cost £2k a year ago.

 

Am I right those of you who can do sums?

 

Isn't there at least one famous example of a church being stung by precisley the point you make. Perhaps grapevine sources were inaccurrate, but was Kingston PC or one of the Schulze projects up north one of them. (No libel intended if my sources were wrong!)

[saundersbp]

The Phoenix is going somewhere very beautiful in the very far North, but better not say where whilst negotiations are taking place.

The two firms were chosen after a lengthy tendering process from British and other European builders.

We have been relatively insulated from exchange rate changes through contractual agreements.

 

Best wishes.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Because, like it or not, we are in Europe now and I suppose the tendering process has to be totally transparent. That means that even Foreign builders have to get a look in.

 

Would Willis have done as good a job for the same money?

 

 

1)- Then, why are british builders never at work in Europe save in quite isolated cases ?

 

2)-"Would Willis have done as good a job for the same money?"

(Quote)

This very question is symptomatic of a problem!!! (The Austin Montego syndrome?)

 

That Willis would have done as well Klais would not question for a minute.

I see here symptoms of a disease we know quite well in remote southern Belgium,

and at work already in western Midlands sometimes: Provincialism.

It can be summarized so:

 

-We are little guys.

-What we have is worthless.

-Our only redeem is to copy Brussels (or London, for example...)

-What we need is the same toys as theirs in Brussels

-The guys from here are peasants, don't listen to them.

 

....As for the results: see the Severn joke on another thread.

 

Pierre (joking, but not that much).

[andyorgan]

Your knowledge of British rivers is so much better than mine of rivers in Belgium!

[AJJ]

Because, like it or not, we are in Europe now and I suppose the tendering process has to be totally transparent. That means that even Foreign builders have to get a look in.

 

Would Willis have done as good a job for the same money?

 

 

........also - we seem to have this discussion every time a contract goes to a European company.......I wonder if the same thing happens when one of ours gets to build away from the UK?

 

A

[Pierre Lauwers]

........also - we seem to have this discussion every time a contract goes to a European company.......I wonder if the same thing happens when one of ours gets to build away from the UK?

 

A

 

The answer to your question is on the french forum, on the Florence (IT) topic.

 

Pierre.

[Henry Willis]

Because, like it or not, we are in Europe now and I suppose the tendering process has to be totally transparent. That means that even Foreign builders have to get a look in.

 

Would Willis have done as good a job for the same money?

 

We did submit a scheme there, in 1999 I think, in conjunction with Stephen Bicknell, but it would have been out of the question now as we're fully booked for the next 4 years already.

 

If your question means "would the standard have been as high for the same money?" far be it from me to speak of our quality: the Florence organ is completed and anyone who wishes to go to see it does so with our blessing, everyone who HAS seen it (rather than just talking about it) seems to think well of it.

 

As to the European transparency - this is nonsense: only projects being funded by public money need to be tendered Europe-wide - notwithstanding, no contracts in Germany or France ever seem to go to 'foreign' firms.

 

DW

[Pierre Lauwers]

"no contracts in Germany or France ever seem to go to 'foreign' firms."

(Quote)

 

Here again, it depends of the funding. German builders like Ahrend, Klais and Grenzing

work in France.

Thomas of Belgium too (and he has got the contract for the Monaco Cathedral).

Kern of France often works in Germany, where the swiss builders are much appreciated

and have much work.

The problems commence whenever public money is concerned !

 

As for the british builders, the potential is there -see the numbers of used organs

exported from Britain to Europe-. The victorian style fits extremely well

in the today's trends in Europe.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

1)- Then, why are british builders never at work in Europe save in quite isolated cases ?

Given the growing popularity of English cathedral music in some areas of northern Europe, it is surprising that English builders are not more active there. Then again, considering how easy it is to pick up a secondhand British instrument, perhaps it isn't.

[bazuin]

"As for the british builders, the potential is there -see the numbers of used organs

exported from Britain to Europe-. The victorian style fits extremely well

in the today's trends in Europe."

 

Dare I suggest that if anyone in the UK could build with the artistic and stylistic sense of confidence and quality which their (better) Victorian predecessors did, then we wouldn't be having this discussion?

 

"Given the growing popularity of English cathedral music in some areas of northern Europe, it is surprising that English builders are not more active there."

 

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the comment I made a moment ago. That said, there are hints of British builders starting to take a serious interest in the Victorian style at the expense of the 'pan-European stoplist style'. Willis in Florence is an interesting example, as is Colin's organ in Twyford. Perhaps most interesing is Harrison's project in Glasgow which involves reconstructing in every detail a Father Willis organ 'improved' by Willis III. This includes a new action including Barker machine (made in house), and a new console re-creating in detail, and from scratch the Willis I original (including trigger swell). This level of historically-aware organ building will surely raise interest in the British product elsewhere.

 

"The two firms were chosen after a lengthy tendering process from British and other European builders.

We have been relatively insulated from exchange rate changes through contractual agreements."

 

With the greatest of respect, Skrabl get their contracts because they are remarkably cheap. This due to their location and the economic advantages of working there. Their operation is enormous and allows them abnormally quick delivery times.

 

Klais get contracts because they do their PR well. Please note that every one of their near-identical loud neo-modernist organs gets maximum coverage in the organ press, even in the UK. It would be interesting to know why, from a artistic standpoint they qualify to do anything to a Norman and Beard organ, a style with which they have no experience whatever.

(No, Bath doesn't count, it's a new organ with some old pipes, it sounds and behaves like a Klais).

 

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

[Pierre Lauwers]

Dear Bazuin,

 

I agree with you save for one point: Klais !

I learned quite much from Hans-Gerd Klais, especially about

romantic organs.

 

By the way, Eule Orgelbau is busy building a new organ for the Mercator-Halle

in Duisburg which could surprise much people here. I shall give the specifications

when it will be available on-line...

 

Pierre

[Henry Willis]

Dare I suggest that if anyone in the UK could build with the artistic and stylistic sense of confidence and quality which their (better) Victorian predecessors did, then we wouldn't be having this discussion?

 

And dare I suggest that if modern-day organbuilders in the UK were treated with anything approaching the level of respect which their predecessors were and allowed the artistic input into their new work which their predecessors were, then the outcomes may be more favourable!

 

That said, there are hints of British builders starting to take a serious interest in the Victorian style at the expense of the 'pan-European stoplist style'. Willis in Florence is an interesting example

 

And there m'Lud, I rest me case - no consultant, the tonal scheme, architectural and technical designs were entirely without outside interference.

 

Perhaps most interesting is Harrison's project in Glasgow which involves reconstructing in every detail a Father Willis organ 'improved' by Willis III. This includes a new action including Barker machine (made in house), and a new console re-creating in detail, and from scratch the Willis I original

 

Such a pity that that milieu didn't obtain when Lincoln Cathedral was done.

 

Klais get contracts because they do their PR well. Please note that every one of their near-identical loud neo-modernist organs gets maximum coverage in the organ press, even in the UK. It would be interesting to know why, from a artistic standpoint they qualify to do anything to a Norman and Beard organ, a style with which they have no experience whatever.

(No, Bath doesn't count, it's a new organ with some old pipes, it sounds and behaves like a Klais).

 

The point behind my original question actually.

 

DW

[ajsphead]

And dare I suggest that if modern-day organbuilders in the UK were treated with anything approaching the level of respect which their predecessors were and allowed the artistic input into their new work which their predecessors were, then the outcomes may be more favourable!

 

And there m'Lud, I rest me case - no consultant, the tonal scheme, architectural and technical designs were entirely without outside interference.

 

 

DW

 

Here here. the applause around the UK from similar quarters is deafening. The art continues in spite of and in the face of, and often having to kowtow to the people and situations you're referring to. The cream will rise to the top as it always has done, but do we want it pasteurised, homogenised and fully skimmed. The danger is there that it will become merely a glimpse of it's true nature and potential.

 

AJS

[bazuin]

"And there m'Lud, I rest me case - no consultant, the tonal scheme, architectural and technical designs were entirely without outside interference."

 

I know better than to criticise consultants here, people throw stones. I think this point is very important. The best way to build an organ is surely always to commission it from a builder you trust, and trust them to build the best organ for the space.

 

"Such a pity that that milieu didn't obtain when Lincoln Cathedral was done."

 

Quite.

 

"I learned quite much from Hans-Gerd Klais, especially about

romantic organs."

 

Hans Gerd Klais took the Klais style in a certain direction, this style peaked around 1975 with organs in Ingolstadt and Trier. [sentence deleted by moderator.]

 

Bazuin

[Pierre Lauwers]

"Hans Gerd Klais took the Klais style in a certain direction, this style peaked around 1975 with organs in Ingolstadt and Trier. "

(Quote)

 

....But it is not sure it was his preffered one. He much admired the late-romantic style, a style with which

the very house Klais began.

 

 

 

Of course, you may think it (I do not).

But is it something to write on a public place about a living builder ?

Whenever I dislike a job -it happens!- I send the builder a private Mail, and a discussion follows -or not-.

There is no alternative to diplomacy, especially on the Internet.

And I think I am a living testimony of the fact this does not empeach to be rather disturbing

at times, isn't it ?

But never with attacks ad Nomine.

 

Pierre