Jump to content
Mander Organs
flûte harmonique

New console Notre Dame de Paris

Recommended Posts

After watching and listening with awe to Pierre Pincemaille's section from St. Dénis I searched for further recordings. I found only this...

 

http://www.ohscatalo...rcdfromstd.html

 

... which gives a slightly less rosy view of the organ's future. It must be hoped that nothing drastic is done although one can well understand the frustration of having shorter manual and pedal compasses than required for much French repertoire.

 

I have a copy of this - the recording was made in 1994.

 

Reading through the booklet it is soon apparent that Pincemaille said nothing of the kind. The text is too long to quote verbatim. However, whilst he does point out that the instrument (as a prototype) lacks the tonal and mechanical refinements of later instruments by Cavaillé-Coll, nevertheless, it has justified its existence by its historical importance (as a physical 'document'), its musicality and its technical innovations at the time of its creation. There is a sense of both pride and awe at the audaciousness of the whole project; this was a phenomenal achievement for this young, relatively un-tried builder.

 

Pincemaille goes on to list a number of features of the instrument which not only made (and still make) it demanding to play but also contributed to the periods in which it was silent, awaiting remedial action. However, what is clearly discernible in the body of the text is an understandable pride - in holding the post of titulaire here, and in the instrument itself, notwithstanding its eccentricities and mechanical infelicities.

 

In fact, the organ at S. Denis was restored (the work was completed in 1987), by Gonzales & Co., with the sub-contract for the voicing and tuning of the pipe-work being awarded to Boisseau & Co.. In any case, since this organ had been accorded the status of [a] Monument Historique in November 1948, a radical restoration was unlikely ever to take place.

 

This illustrates clearly the danger of conjecture and mis-reading when writing copy for advertisements, simply to try to boost CD sales.

 

With regard to the comment regarding the 'poor state' of tuning during the recording: had the person responsible for this particular piece of 'copy' taken the trouble to read the CD booklet more carefully, they would have realized that at the time of the restoration, Robert Boisseau claimed to have discovered indications that it was originally tuned in some form of in unequal temperament.* Therefore, the organ could have sounded 'out of tune' to a reviewer simply listening to the CD.

 

 

 

*This was refuted by Pincemaille - on the grounds that there is no known evidence that Cavaillé-Coll ever favoured the use of such a temperament and subsequently, the tuning was returned to equal temperament.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, thank you pcnd. That is a comfort and I had wrongly assumed that this was a new recording being sold by the OHS; I didn't investigate further.

 

My only knowledge of the organ is that learned from the Fugue State Films offering and this made me keen to hear more, especially of Pierre Pincemaille's improvisations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, thank you pcnd. That is a comfort and I had wrongly assumed that this was a new recording being sold by the OHS; I didn't investigate further.

 

My only knowledge of the organ is that learned from the Fugue State Films offering and this made me keen to hear more, especially of Pierre Pincemaille's improvisations.

 

Not at all, handsoff; the responsibility lies largely with the copywriter. Without a copy of the CD booklet, it would be difficult to separate the truth from the rhetoric - and the inaccuracies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With this I should have to disagree strongly. Surely the instrument is far more important than any one person - however good they are. There are many instruments in this country* which have been altered (in some cases irretrievably). in order to satisfy the wishes of the serving musicians of that time.† What would happen if, in ten years' time, an extremely gifted organist who is currently receiving training at (for example) the Paris Conservatoire, is appointed titulaire at Nôtre-Dame - and wishes to 'rebuild' the instrument as a neo-Baroque organ, with entirely mechanical action? (As an integral part of his plans, this would of course necessitate the removal of much of the existing pipe-work.) Would this too be acceptable, on the grounds that the new titulaire has got what he wanted - and can now show off his talent in an even more spectacular manner?

 

Pierre Pincemaille, the present titulaire at the Basilica of S. Denis, is a phenomenally gifted player. His improvisations are at least as good as those of the musicians currently appointed to Nôtre-Dame. As it happens, he has chosen jealously to preserve the superb instrument at S. Denis. The incredibly unwieldy console, in its cramped situation has done nothing to stifle either his creativity or his sublime talent. One only has to listen to recordings of his improvisations - and repertoire - (or, for that matter, watch DVDs from the box set recently issued by Fugue State Films, detailing the history and evolution of instruments by Aristide Cavaillé-Coll) to realise that he is second to none in this respect.

 

How strange it is that he is able to create superb improvisations, which lack nothing in technical dexterity, construction or sheer musicality, on this uncouth, cumbersome instrument - yet, a few miles away, apparently it has been thought necessary to rebuild another instrument, arguably of equal historic and artistic importance, yet again, with another new console and a plethora of electronic devices.

 

 

 

 

* i.e.: England.

 

† In fact, I can think of one instance in the U.K. of an organist who, during his long tenure, had 'his' cathedral organ rebuilt twice; once, around 1971 and the second time in the mid 1990s - at which point, many of the earlier tonal alterations of the previous rebuild were reversed. Which also serves to illustrate how the personal tastes, historical perspective awareness and other related issues of a particular performer can change - in some cases, radically.

 

Actually, Pierre Pincemaille is , as you do say, very proud to be titular- organist (through a clear and transparent contest in 87) of the Saint-Denis ACC prototype. He is certainly the only one to be able to improvise in the modern French style on such an instrument (by the way he improvised in such a way on the cathedral Saint Etienne de Sens -organ typically French 18th, which was considered as an exploit by the auditors!). In the same time, he always says that he might better express his musical choices on a instrument equipped with a combinator and "tout le confort moderne". H's like a driver who is fond of his "traction avant Citroen" charms and in the same time exasperated by the lack of power of the engine and the weakness of the brakes!!

In any case thank you very much pncd 5584 to be so accurate and realistic in your opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Pierre Pincemaille is , as you do say, very proud to be titular- organist (through a clear and transparent contest in 87) of the Saint-Denis ACC prototype. He is certainly the only one to be able to improvise in the modern French style on such an instrument (by the way he improvised in such a way on the cathedral Saint Etienne de Sens -organ typically French 18th, which was considered as an exploit by the auditors!). In the same time, he always says that he might better express his musical choices on a instrument equipped with a combinator and "tout le confort moderne". H's like a driver who is fond of his "traction avant Citroen" charms and in the same time exasperated by the lack of power of the engine and the weakness of the brakes!!

In any case thank you very much pncd 5584 to be so accurate and realistic in your opinion.

 

Thank you for your post, flûte harmonique.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With this I should have to disagree strongly. Surely the instrument is far more important than any one person - however good they are. There are many instruments in this country* which have been altered (in some cases irretrievably). in order to satisfy the wishes of the serving musicians of that time.† What would happen if, in ten years' time, an extremely gifted organist who is currently receiving training at (for example) the Paris Conservatoire, is appointed titulaire at Nôtre-Dame - and wishes to 'rebuild' the instrument as a neo-Baroque organ, with entirely mechanical action? (As an integral part of his plans, this would of course necessitate the removal of much of the existing pipe-work.) Would this too be acceptable, on the grounds that the new titulaire has got what he wanted - and can now show off his talent in an even more spectacular manner?

 

Pierre Pincemaille, the present titulaire at the Basilica of S. Denis, is a phenomenally gifted player. His improvisations are at least as good as those of the musicians currently appointed to Nôtre-Dame. As it happens, he has chosen jealously to preserve the superb instrument at S. Denis. The incredibly unwieldy console, in its cramped situation has done nothing to stifle either his creativity or his sublime talent. One only has to listen to recordings of his improvisations - and repertoire - (or, for that matter, watch DVDs from the box set recently issued by Fugue State Films, detailing the history and evolution of instruments by Aristide Cavaillé-Coll) to realise that he is second to none in this respect.

Changing a non-mechanical action console does not automatically result in tonal or pipework changes. I certainly agree that such an organ should not have to suffer at the whim of any individual (I did say titulaires and others [plural]), although this particular instrument has undergone more than its fair share of historical change. I would be far more worried if the practically unaltered CC & FW organs in Ste-Sernin, Toulouse or Truro Cathedral suffered any tonal tamperings. At Truro, the provision of a new console in 1963 in a new position in a gallery above the choir from where the organist can hear far better and communicate more easily with the choir/conductor, did not change the overall sound of the organ one iota. When the commitee met, fifty years ago, to discuss possible changes to the FW, they heard perfection, and therefore they maintained it that way for future generations. One contributory factor is lack of funds in poverty-stricken Cornwall with which to do any tampering, but clearly the French government likes to be seen spending large sums on high-profile projects such as at NDdeP. The weird/ugly temporary (at least I hope it is) aerial walkway and grandstand that has been erected in front of that building for its 850th anniversary is a current example.

 

I have been enjoying Pierre Pincemaille's playing and talking about S.Denis in the Fugue State boxed set (a remarkable acheivement). The physical limitations of his console seem almost to inspire him to greater heights of improvisation. However, there's no reason to believe that such an accomplished artist could not work equal (though different) wonders seated at the new 'Ikea' console at ND.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Changing a non-mechanical action console does not automatically result in tonal or pipework changes.

. No - but I intended this to read that [in this case] there would be alterations to the pipe-work; this was to highlight the type of thing which has happened far too often.

 

 

I certainly agree that such an organ should not have to suffer at the whim of any individual (I did say titulaires and others [plural]), although this particular instrument has undergone more than its fair share of historical change. I would be far more worried if the practically unaltered CC & FW organs in Ste-Sernin, Toulouse or Truro Cathedral suffered any tonal tamperings. At Truro, the provision of a new console in 1963 in a new position in a gallery above the choir from where the organist can hear far better and communicate more easily with the choir/conductor, did not change the overall sound of the organ one iota. When the commitee met, fifty years ago, to discuss possible changes to the FW, they heard perfection, and therefore they maintained it that way for future generations. One contributory factor is lack of funds in poverty-stricken Cornwall with which to do any tampering, but clearly the French government likes to be seen spending large sums on high-profile projects such as at NDdeP. The weird/ugly temporary (at least I hope it is) aerial walkway and grandstand that has been erected in front of that building for its 850th anniversary is a current example.

 

In the case of S. Sernin, in fact this organ had a number of alterations carried out during the previous century* - at the hand of Maurice Puget. There were, for the most part, reversed in the most recent restoration.

 

With regard to Truro, it is true that the committee which considered the work to be undertaken in 1963, wished to keep this instrument tonally untouched (save for the fact that the G.O. 8ft. Tromba was made a touch less powerful many years ago). I am aware that many regard this organ as 'perfect'. Certainly, as the only existing un-altered example of a cathedral organ by FHW, it should remain so. Having played it on several occasions for both service and recital work, I would suggest that it is anything but perfect. However, that does not prevent me from respecting the work of its creator. Neither would I change anything, despite its many imperfections and inconveniences - other than the re-instatement of the Solo Tuba in its former position.

 

 

I have been enjoying Pierre Pincemaille's playing and talking about S.Denis in the Fugue State boxed set (a remarkable acheivement). The physical limitations of his console seem almost to inspire him to greater heights of improvisation. However, there's no reason to believe that such an accomplished artist could not work equal (though different) wonders seated at the new 'Ikea' console at ND.

 

Granted. But this has not stopped Pincemaille respecting the nature of the instrument over which he presides - and preserving it. No doubt, at other consoles, he is indeed capable of even greater achievements.

 

 

 

* I note your use of the word 'practically'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
… In the case of S. Sernin, in fact this organ had a number of alterations carried out during the previous century* - at the hand of Mutin. There were, for the most part, reversed in the most recent restoration.

True, by the exception of the builder who did the rebuilds. It was Puget. He altered the wind system by connecting the high-pressure and normal-pressure parts. This was reverted in the restoration. Apparently, many players and listeners now think it overwhelmingly loud, which could well be a consequence of reinstating the high pressure for the GO trebles and all of the Récit.

 

Best,

Friedrich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regard to Truro, it is true that the committee which considered the work to be undertaken in 1963, wished to keep this instrument tonally untouched (save for the fact that the G.O. 8ft. Tromba was made a touch less powerful many years ago). I am aware that many regard this organ as 'perfect'. Certainly, as the only existing un-altered example of a cathedral organ by FHW, it should remain so. Having played it on several occasions for both service and recital work, I would suggest that it is anything but perfect. However, that does not prevent me from respecting the work of its creator. Neither would I change anything, despite its many imperfections and inconveniences - other than the re-instatement of the Solo Tuba in its former position.

With apologies for going off-topic, I think no one could pretend that any organ could achieve 'perfection'. I admit that I used the word loosely, which isn't sensible given its proper meaning. As a brief aside, the week before last, during a group visit to Duruflé's flat, having warned Frédéric Blanc (the well-known improviser and inheritor-custodian of the flat and 3-manual Gonzalez house organ) that our rendition of Ubi Caritas wouldn't be perfect as we were a tenor or two short, he replied 'Perfection is not beautiful' and went on at length to explain why. Certainly, Duruflé's original manuscript that he then showed us was pretty close to perfect neatness! When Olivier Latry was asked what he thought of the Truro FW, having just broadcast live on Radio 3, he replied 'It's ok', leaving behind a slightly bemused questioner. Each to his/her own, of course. IMHO it sounds better than it plays, if you see what I mean. Hearing it, after traveling in Europe and listening to some of the finest organs of that period, gives me a real thrill that I really cannot fully explain. Perhaps it's the impact of the tutti in a relatively small building, but it is noticeable that when an exceptional musician who knows the instrument well, like David Briggs or Luke Bond, is playing (the latter the current assistant - you can tune in the Choral Evensong on Radio 3 today at 3.30 and hear him playing it!), that the relatively modest size of the instrument, problems of balance with the choir for a nave congregation, lack of a 32' reed, small pedal department, etc, do not seem to limit the myriad colours that can be achieved, remarkable for an organ that FHW voiced for a cathedral then without a nave (though I suppose you could say that luck took some part in providing near-identical twins to Coventry and Truro, being somewhat different bulidings). As for the Tuba, which is of much more practical use than in its former backward position, it can, as you are probably aware, be moved back to its original position, should future generations so desire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess one shouldn't look to Notre Dame as an example of a C-C organ, because it has been changed so much. Downes referred to it as "Super-Cavaille" and liked it. It's what it is, and that's that - until it gets altered again.

 

Similarly, St.-Sulpice is not a perfect exemplar because its layout (and the muffling effect of the case) makes the balance different from other large C-Cs. One could instance it as the perfect organ for Widor and Dupre (and Lefebure-Wely?), because it was their organ, but who knows whether or not some of their works were composed with it in mind?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, by the exception of the builder who did the rebuilds. It was Puget. He altered the wind system by connecting the high-pressure and normal-pressure parts. This was reverted in the restoration. Apparently, many players and listeners now think it overwhelmingly loud, which could well be a consequence of reinstating the high pressure for the GO trebles and all of the Récit.

 

Best,

Friedrich

 

Of course you are correct. I have no idea why I typed Mutin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With apologies for going off-topic, I think no one could pretend that any organ could achieve 'perfection'. I admit that I used the word loosely, which isn't sensible given its proper meaning. As a brief aside, the week before last, during a group visit to Duruflé's flat, having warned Frédéric Blanc (the well-known improviser and inheritor-custodian of the flat and 3-manual Gonzalez house organ) that our rendition of Ubi Caritas wouldn't be perfect as we were a tenor or two short, he replied 'Perfection is not beautiful' and went on at length to explain why. Certainly, Duruflé's original manuscript that he then showed us was pretty close to perfect neatness!

 

I would be interested to learn his reasoning. I have always regarded the H&H organ of Coventry Cathedral as being as near to perfection as is possible on this earth. (That is, before the unfortunate revoicing of the Solo Orchestral Trumpet and Orchestral Clarion). I find this organ one of the most beautiful and inspiring instruments which I have ever played.

 

Also off-topic: as far as I know, Frédéric Blanc (former suppléant at S. Sernin, Toulouse) and Yves Castagnet (titulaire, orgue-de-chœur, Nôtre-Dame) are the only organists in Paris to hold full-time appointments - and, presumably, salaries. †

 

When Olivier Latry was asked what he thought of the Truro FW, having just broadcast live on Radio 3, he replied 'It's ok', leaving behind a slightly bemused questioner. Each to his/her own, of course. IMHO it sounds better than it plays, if you see what I mean. Hearing it, after traveling in Europe and listening to some of the finest organs of that period, gives me a real thrill that I really cannot fully explain.

 

I can understand Latry's perceived casual (or nonchalant) approach. The thrill appears, from your description, to stem from the effect of the tutti. This is, of course, largely due to the fact that all the essential ingredients are present - as at the cathedrals of Hereford, Lincoln and Salisbury. Whist it is true that each of these instruments has its own individual voice (and can almost certainly be identified from recordings), this is really down to the presence of the G.O. and Swell chorus reeds (with, naturally, the G.O. foundations and upper-work), the Pedal 32ft. flue, and 16ft. Open Diapason, together with the Ophicleide. All of these elements are present at Truro; it is in the variety of quieter ranks and the lack of a second enclosed department that Truro falls short.

 

Perhaps it's the impact of the tutti in a relatively small building, but it is noticeable that when an exceptional musician who knows the instrument well, like David Briggs or Luke Bond, is playing (the latter the current assistant - you can tune in the Choral Evensong on Radio 3 today at 3.30 and hear him playing it!), that the relatively modest size of the instrument, problems of balance with the choir for a nave congregation, lack of a 32' reed, small pedal department, etc, do not seem to limit the myriad colours that can be achieved, remarkable for an organ that FHW voiced for a cathedral then without a nave (though I suppose you could say that luck took some part in providing near-identical twins to Coventry and Truro, being somewhat different bulidings). As for the Tuba, which is of much more practical use than in its former backward position, it can, as you are probably aware, be moved back to its original position, should future generations so desire.

 

It is difficult to split your post cleanly; nevertheless I shall try to address each point in turn.

 

The problems of balance you mention are not peculiar to Truro, of course. Winchester is another case in point. Despite the addition of the Nave Organ, this instrument, whilst being able to swamp the largest of choirs in the stalls, can sound distant and inadequate in this long Nave.

 

I must admit that I regard the organ of Truro Cathedral (as did DJB) as one of the few cathedral organs which does not need a 32ft. reed. There was the possibility of one at the time of the 1991 restoration, and he turned it down. There are far more pressing problems: the 32ft. flue is one of the worst I have ever heard. Several notes are virtually inaudible (anywhere), whilst some (low A, for example), booms terrifically.* The G.O. and Swell 16ft. flues would be of considerably greater value if made independently available on the Pedal Organ. The Ophicleide is only useable with the full organ. The Choir Organ is very quiet and, whilst this may provide a few additional accompanimental registers, it is of little use for any serious repertoire. The G.O., at only twelve stops, has but one reasonably quiet 8ft. flue. In addition, the Mixture, aside from containing a third-sounding rank, breaks (all ranks together, as far as I can recall) on F#31 - as does the identical stop on the Swell. The Swell Organ lacks a 4ft. Flute - frequently omitted by FHW in quite large schemes, it must be said. (In fact, Arthur Harrison often did the same thing,) This is a very useful rank for choral accompaniment. There is no enclosed 4ft. Flute anywhere on this instrument. The Solo Organ is not enclosed, which is particularly limiting for the two orchestral reeds. One further point (which is purely a matter of personal preference): the Swell Vox Angelica beats rather too quickly with the Echo Gamba. The result is neither restful nor ethereal - just odd.

 

The myriad colours. Naturally, if one knows a particular instrument well and is prepared to experiment, certainly it is possible to achieve a wide range of tone-colours. However, it is difficult to deny that there is a basic similarity in many of the flutes (FHW almost always provided just three types: Gedeckts, Claribels and Harmonic Flutes). In addition, as had been mentioned, the lack of a second expressive division is a handicap. For example, changing from the Solo Clarinet to the Choir Corno di Bassetto, to give the impression of a diminuendo in a solo line is inconvenient - particularly since one has to 'jump' over two other claviers - and lacking in subtlety at best. It also ties up two claviers on this relatively small instrument for one effect.

 

With regard to the voicing of the instrument in the as-then-unfinished cathedral: this was quite probably more luck than design. At that time, rather less was known about acoustics and the scientific application of pipe scales. It is probable that FHW simply used standard scales (based on some empirical knowledge). These can often be seen in the 'shop' books as 'Lieblich Gedeckt, Scale No. 6', or similar. At its inauguration, I am fairly certain that the organ (if the tutti was employed at any stage) would have been too loud.

 

With regard to the former organ in the old cathedral at Coventry and that at Truro being near-identical twins: for that matter, the former instrument at Saint Alban the Martyr, Holborn, also possessed a very similar stop-list. The chief differences were: a Sub Bourdon and a three-rank Mixture on the Pedal Organ, a Lieblich Bourdon 16ft. on the Swell Organ (instead of a Geigen Principal) and an enclosed Solo Organ. (The only other divergences were one or two minor differences in nomenclature.)

 

As far as the Tuba is concerned, my feeling is that it should not have been moved. FHW was quite capable of providing a really big Tuba, if the situation warranted such a rank (c.f.: Salisbury Cathedral, Solo Organ and Saint Paul's Cathedral, Chancel Tubas). However, Truro Cathedral is considerably smaller even than Salisbury Cathedral. FHW certainly expressed his dislike for 'big, blurty' 32ft. reeds; I suggest that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he had a similar distaste for a solo reed which was out of scale to its surroundings. In any case, it is a tangible alteration to the overall sound of the instrument. Surely it should have been kept strictly as FHW left it.

 

 

 

† This may answer a question I have been pondering for a few years, now. I had wondered how anyone of Frédéric Blanc's ability could bear to give up even the post of suppléant, at the Basilica of S. Sernin, Toulouse - with that fabulous instrument. Presumably if one inherits such an apartment with that type of historical connection - together with Duruflé's organ, there is only one option.

 

* In a negative sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess one shouldn't look to Notre Dame as an example of a C-C organ, because it has been changed so much. Downes referred to it as "Super-Cavaille" and liked it. It's what it is, and that's that - until it gets altered again.

 

indeed.

 

Similarly, St.-Sulpice is not a perfect exemplar because its layout (and the muffling effect of the case) makes the balance different from other large C-Cs. One could instance it as the perfect organ for Widor and Dupre (and Lefebure-Wely?), because it was their organ, but who knows whether or not some of their works were composed with it in mind?

 

I am not sure about the latter (I am sorry, but I cannot bring myself to type his name). However, this organ also suited the compositions and superb improvisations of another recent titulaire - Jean-Jacques Grünenwald.* I have but one CD of his improvisations and I must admit that I find them stunning. They are superbly constructed, imaginative and with a keen ear for detail. In fact, I should go as far as to say that I rather prefer them to those of Dupré which I have heard. Although technically brilliant, they could often sound rather academic and lacking in spontaneity (something which Vierne also questioned on at least one occasion).

 

 

 

* Successor to Marcel Dupré. In addition, Mme. Françoise Renet (1924 - 1995), acted as titulaire after the deaths of both Dupré and Grünenwald, prior to the appointment of Daniel Roth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grünenwald was a very fine musician indeed. Not enough played in concert ....

As for Dupré, the problem is that we only know about the improvisations he made in the 50's for the early recordings. He was at that time 65 y old and already affected by arthrite.

A number of people, specially in the US in the 20's, witness that he was a great imaginative improvisor.

Discussing this topic with Pincemaille, he quotes Tournemire as the most gifted improvisor. He is not very fond of Dupré because of the constructive constraints he used to put on his impros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grünenwald was a very fine musician indeed. Not enough played in concert ....

As for Dupré, the problem is that we only know about the improvisations he made in the 50's for the early recordings. He was at that time 65 y old and already affected by arthrite.

A number of people, specially in the US in the 20's, witness that he was a great imaginative improvisor.

Discussing this topic with Pincemaille, he quotes Tournemire as the most gifted improvisor. He is not very fond of Dupré because of the constructive constraints he used to put on his impros.

 

Thank you, flûte harmonique. Again, this is interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shame they have to have that ugly cable trailing up the back and side of the console when with a bit of thought and planning it (the cable) could so easily have been incorporated into the console with an outlet on the top. I always think the same with console lights - beautiful, well thought out consoles abound but are often adorned by an Argos-best anglepoise and with an extension lead cluttering the place up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...