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flûte harmonique

New console Notre Dame de Paris

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Great minds and all that.....I always wondered why they didn't bring out a souped up Allegro Vivace. :rolleyes:

 

Best,

 

MM

There is also currently a Nissan Note... how many do you need to make a Chord? :P

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There is also currently a Nissan Note... how many do you need to make a Chord? :P

 

=======================

 

Why stop at a chord when we could have a whole piece?

 

 

Now let me see....

 

We could have an 'Allegro. Prelude, Aria and Jazz Finale with a Cadenza, all based on themes from the Firebird in a Minor key, played with suitable Accord entirely on the GT manual; dedicated to the late GTB and followed by cries of, "Bravo!" :P

 

(Austin Allegro, Honda Prelude, Honda Aria, Honda Jazz, Ford Kia Finale, Kia Cadenza,Pontiac Firebird, Morris Minor, Honda Accord. GT-anything, Ferrari GTB and Fiat Bravo).

 

It must almost be Christmas if I have time to write rubbish like this!

 

Best,

 

MM

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A small video with P.Lefebvre on the new console (at 1')

 

http://api.dmcloud.n...4c?wmode=direct

 

It appears that further changes have been made - there is now a 'Resonnance' division - with chimes. What were they thinking?

 

As far as I can see, this new console is plain ugly compared to the previous two consoles. The black rocking tablets for the couplers (and several other aspects, e.g. piston heads and divisional name plates) make it look like some cheap electronic instrument.

 

Are they intending to have a music desk? In addition, what is that odd stepped part, at the top and back of the jamb panels?

 

I wonder what was 'wrong' with the previous console?

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... It must almost be Christmas if I have time to write rubbish like this! ...

 

Alternatively, you could save yourself some time.

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It appears that further changes have been made - there is now a 'Resonnance' division - with chimes. What were they thinking?

 

As far as I can see, this new consoe is plain ugly compared to the prvoius two consoles. The black rocking tablets for the couplers (and several other aspects, e.g. piston heads and divisional name plates) make it look like some cheap electronic instrument.

 

Are they intending to have a music desk? In addition, what is that odd stepped part, at the top and back of the jamb panels?

 

I wonder what was 'wrong' with the previous console?

They have (Quoirin's people) used the former stops by reshaping their ivory, the former pedal has been kept. The rest is entirely new, including a new bench.

The Resonance division is made for the extension of the "petite pédale" to the manuals (56 notes) due to be effective in 2014.

The current changes have been made necessary by the various failures in the electronic part of the organ. I think that some happy few were aware of the new console setting up but not the majority of the NDP fans whom I belong to!!!!

Some sources say that the wooden part of the former console was not in such a good condition than previously expected.

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They have (Quoirin's people) used the former stops by reshaping their ivory, the former pedal has been kept. The rest is entirely new, including a new bench.

The Resonance division is made for the extension of the "petite pédale" to the manuals (56 notes) due to be effective in 2014.

The current changes have been made necessary by the various failures in the electronic part of the organ. I think that some happy few were aware of the new console setting up but not the majority of the NDP fans whom I belong to!!!!

Some sources say that the wooden part of the former console was not in such a good condition than previously expected.

 

I cannot see the point of this. The instrument is already well supplied with mutations - and it surely does not need any chimes.

 

I am also skeptical about the idea that the previous console was not in a good condition - the same was said of the console which replaced that by Cavaillé-Coll. It certainly looked perfectly serviceable to me that last time I sat at it - when it had already been in use for in excess of ten years.

 

However, thank you for the information, flûte harmonique.

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Yes - mind you - having heard a full evening demonstation of the ND organ reasonably recently at the hands of Phillipe Lefebvre it seems that it can be made to sound like anything you want. He certainly found some ideal Clicquot sounds, managed to register both the earlier and later Romantics/Symphonists authentically and then Chochereau and post Cochereau - almost like different instruments - this I think is the success of the organ - in the right hands. ND always was a special case yet recordings of Latry playing Vierne (and Messaien mind you) still sound very CC at their core.

 

It will be interesting to dig deep into the new CC DVD set - mine arrived yesterday and was spirited away as a Christmas present by Mrs AJ - looking forward to this - 'may need to leave the new Hammond Cochereau book for a while though!

 

A

 

...and if you watch the new C-C DVD set which turned up as a present two days ago there is some quite revealing information about the organ from Olivier Latry. For instance on the effectiveness of the pretty much horizontal layout of the divisions, the full sets of C-C mutations and 16,8,4 reed choruses (incidentally, the C-C GO Bassons by all accounts are no longer so but reeds from another division exchanged at some point), the large ammount of older pipework, how the newer pipework was integrated, Cochereaus ideals and above all how the organ differs from S. Sulpiece for example in its 'quick fire' immediacy and 'National Church' situation. Furthermore they see the organ as continually evolving (as C-C seemed to have done) which would therefore give reason for new consoles and tonal 'updating' etc.

 

A

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Furthermore they see the organ as continually evolving (as C-C seemed to have done) which would therefore give reason for new consoles and tonal 'updating' etc.

As much as I admire Olivier Latry as an artist, and respect what he has to say about the instrument he plays and loves, I never saw the point of that kind of argument. It means to confuse the instrument’s history with its identity, two things that are logically and physically profoundly different. To incorporate this concept into that of a « monument historique » means, by consequence, carte blache to every contemporary whim. Which historical conservation of a certain concept, in sound and transmission technique, is precisely not.

 

Ironically, once having gone the way of solid-state transmission, perpetual change has in fact become part of the instrument, due to continuing development in that area.

 

By now, I tend to be confused by all the concepts incorporated into that giant organ. Maybe it’s just me. I like it simple. Minds like Olivier’s might see possibility where mine is just overchallenged.

 

Best,

Friedrich

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You are right: in so far as NDP organ is classified "monument historique", it has to respond to historical criteria defined by experts depending on the ministry of culture. Its evolvement is thus clearly framed As you know Lefebvre was (and perhaps still is) member of the historical organ experts commission when Cochereau died. This is the reason why he was appointed co-titular: his lobbying to help the organ to be restored with a sufficient amount of money was, in this way, strongly expected! There is so much to say about the organ and about those who played it or wanted to....

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You are right: in so far as NDP organ is classified "monument historique", it has to respond to historical criteria defined by experts depending on the ministry of culture. Its evolvement is thus clearly framed As you know Lefebvre was (and perhaps still is) member of the historical organ experts commission when Cochereau died. This is the reason why he was appointed co-titular:

 

Surely it too had something to do with his amazing ability as an interpreter and improviser!

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For what it's worth IMHO the new console isn't pretty and it seems that the layout of the stops and rocker tabs has been copied from the previous console with little thought given to redesign. I would have used the old C-C console as a starting point for the design of the new one reflecting the instrument's heritage, it's also much prettier. The brackets that support the music desk are plain ugly although hopefully when the music desk is fitted this will hide the stepped bits on top of the stop jambs.

 

The lack of music desk, or rther it's removability, (the brackets are obviously seen) would seem to reflect the improvised nature of much of its use during Masses. Sitting at the console with the music desk removed the player seems to have a good view down the nave of the church without having to resort to CCTV to know what's going on.

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For what it's worth IMHO the new console isn't pretty and it seems that the layout of the stops and rocker tabs has been copied from the previous console with little thought given to redesign. I would have used the old C-C console as a starting point for the design of the new one reflecting the instrument's heritage, it's also much prettier. The brackets that support the music desk are plain ugly although hopefully when the music desk is fitted this will hide the stepped bits on top of the stop jambs.

 

The lack of music desk, or rther it's removability, (the brackets are obviously seen) would seem to reflect the improvised nature of much of its use during Masses. Sitting at the console with the music desk removed the player seems to have a good view down the nave of the church without having to resort to CCTV to know what's going on.

To illustrate what you say:

 

magazine-visite-cathedrale-notre-dame-de-paris_940099.jpeg

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Interesting photo - having seen the "old" console in the flesh I'm tempted to say I like the appearance of the latest one better, but if visibility of the High Altar was a design requirement surely a terraced amphitheatre Cavaille-Coll style console would have reduced the height of the console several inches further. There again, unless you're going to play with binoculars strapped to your head I'd have thought CCTV was all but mandatory up there.

 

The question that intrigues me most though is, how the heck did they get that thing up the stairs?

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To illustrate what you say:

 

magazine-visite-cathedrale-notre-dame-de-paris_940099.jpeg

 

Except that it looks as if this photograph was taken from a standing position - and perhaps by someone who was quite tall. If one is seated on the bench, I am willing to bet that the view is not anything like as helpful. In any case, I do not see how it can be so: there are five claviers, then the row of couplers, then a strip of wood. I am fairly sure that it would not be possible to achieve the view above, from a seated position.

 

Having seen the above view, I cannot imagine what they were thinking - this console is incredibly ugly. Look at the ridiculously wide stop jambs with the multiple rows of stops - and the wasted space above several of the outer rows. Clearly the stepped part is integral to the 'design' - the music desk (such as it is) is in place. The whole thing looks like part of a spaceship control panel from a budget 1960's film set.

 

Compared to the previous somewhat more dignified console, this just looks absurd. Why, oh why, did Latry, Lefébvre and Leguay think that it was necessary to replace the previous console with this monstrosity? In any case, with the advent of flat-screen TVs, I can see no need to attempt to make this console so squat.

 

If this is what they consider to be a good, elegant and ergonomic console design, I shudder to think what they may do to the instrument tonally, during its rebuilding next year. I still regard the re-casting of the G.O. and Positif compound stops as progressive mixtures* in 1992 as a mistake, on this instrument. The removal of both Récit chorus mixtures was also unnecessary. If one does not like them, do not draw them.

 

If this were a car, it would be a Citroën 2CV.

 

 

 

* Cavaillé-Coll only used such stops for around ten years or so; after this, he reverted to repeating - or breaking - mixtures.

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...incidentally, the C-C GO Bassons by all accounts are no longer so but reeds from another division exchanged at some point...

 

These ranks disappeared around 1963. They were replaced by those of the former Bombarde division - which was re-named 'Solo', again around 1963. I am not sure that I would join with Latry in lamenting their passing. I doubt that a family of Bassons* would have cut much ice in this building. They were, in any case, unique in a Cavaillé-Coll instrument of this size.

 

 

 

* I think that the 4ft. was labelled 'Soprano', although I have seen at least one stop-list in which it was given as 'Clairon', which I believe to be incorrect.

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For what it's worth IMHO the new console isn't pretty and it seems that the layout of the stops and rocker tabs has been copied from the previous console with little thought given to redesign. ...

 

Not in the case of the Pédale and Récit divisions. The other depatrments had the draw-stops arranged conventionally, in two staggered columns. The Pédale has three and a half columns and the Récit division three. (In the case of the Pédale Orgue, the fourth column did not extend to the bottom of the jamb.)

 

I would certainly agree that this is not pretty.

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... The question that intrigues me most though is, how the heck did they get that thing up the stairs?

 

They almost certainly did not. Like its predecessor, it was probably winched up, over the balustrade of the tribune.

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"Compared to the previous somewhat more dignified console, this just looks absurd. Why, oh why, did Latry, Lefébvre and Leguay think that it was necessary to replace the previous console with this monstrosity? In any case, with the advent of flat-screen TVs, I can see no need to attempt to make this console so squat"

There have been a public procurement including the new computerized transmission plus the console, plus the harmonization. The organ makers who made the bid were Quoirin and Cattiaux. Quoirin made the new console.

Of course the 3 co-titulars were aware of this major change and, given his previous responsibilities in the "Commission nationale des monuments historiques", I suspect Lefebvre exerted a strong influence....

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There have been a public procurement including the new computerized transmission plus the console, plus the harmonization. The organ makers who made the bid were Quoirin and Cattiaux. Quoirin made the new console.

Of course the 3 co-titulars were aware of this major change and, given his previous responsibilities in the "Commission nationale des monuments historiques", I suspect Lefebvre exerted a strong influence....

 

Thank you for this, flûte harmonique.

 

I was also surprised to read of the new computerised transmission; I had thought that they were going to return to a more conventional electro-pneumatic (or similar) action - without the complication or intervention of a computer.

 

I still wonder if it was necessary to replace the console. It is only just twenty years old. Ours is nearly fifty (as is a substantial part of the action, including the ladder switches for the electro-mechanical couplers), and still looks almost as good as new. That is, aside from some unnecessary damage to the Positive treble key cheek; this was caused an organ builder who had not realised that the key frames were secured by screws from the underside of the key bench. I was annoyed about this, because the key cheeks are Walker's finest, carved from rosewood.

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Thank you for this, flûte harmonique.

 

I was also surprised to read of the new computerised transmission; I had thought that they were going to return to a more conventional electro-pneumatic (or similar) action - without the complication or intervention of a computer.

 

I still wonder if it was necessary to replace the console. It is only just twenty years old. Ours is nearly fifty (as is a substantial part of the action, including the ladder switches for the electro-mechanical couplers), and still looks almost as good as new. That is, aside from some unnecessary damage to the Positive treble key cheek; this was caused an organ builder who had not realised that the key frames were secured by screws from the underside of the key bench. I was annoyed about this, because the key cheeks are Walker's finest, carved from rosewood.

In the UK you use to preserve old cars, old steam engines, you are also successful in protecting your countryside and your beautiful landscapes better than in France.

This kind of turnover is perhaps what we call "modernité" which in much cases is an other definition of "ugliness"!

An other view of the "wonderful" console:

 

mini_130103080157740304.png

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In the UK you use to preserve old cars, old steam engines, you are also successful in protecting your countryside and your beautiful landscapes better than in France.

This kind of turnover is perhaps what we call "modernité" which in much cases is an other definition of "ugliness"!

An other view of the "wonderful" console:

 

mini_130103080157740304.png

 

Thank you for this.

 

Aside from being ugly, it looks to have a lot more stops than its predecessor - allowing for the fact that the jambs are substantially lower. There are approximately eighty-eight stops on the RH jamb. Add, say, thirty (nasty black) rocking-tablets for the couplers, etc and perhaps seventy-five or so stops for the LH jamb (it is not possible to estimate with any accuracy from the photograph above). This is in excess of one hundred and ninety registers.

 

So what are all the extra ones for?

 

For the record, here is a link to a photograph of my own church organ console:

 

http://pub21.bravene...=1177FC1DB4.jpg

 

Or here, for a smaller image: http://pub21.bravene.../37795/3/84445/

 

(This board tells me that it does not like this file extension - if it means .jpg, I cannot imagine why.)

 

This console is almost fifty years old. It still looks elegant; it is comfortable (apart from the pedal board - there is either a mistake in the measurements, or it is positioned incorrectly) and it works pretty well. The only obvious defect, is that some of the Pedal notes are late to release. I wonder if this is due partly to the multiplicity of chests for the Pedal Organ - or perhaps that some of the magnets are, after all these years, retaining some of their charge on release.

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