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40 Stop, 3 Manual Organ


Guest Lee Blick

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"But I'm now beginning to wonder what use that Larigot serves"

(Quote)

 

The Larigot 1 1/3' goes always on the Positif, where it tops the "Petit jeu de Tierce" there:

 

Bourdon 8'

Flûte 4'

Nasard 2 2/3'

Quarte de Nasard 2'

Tierce 1 3/5'

Larigot 1 1/3'

 

There has never be any other place for this stop save in neo-classical designs.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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Yes - as far as I understand it, this stop is normally only required in a jeu de Tierce.

 

It can, of course, be used in trio sonati if something light and tinkly is required.

 

It can also be used to give notes for clergy who are disliked by organists....

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Yes - as far as I understand it, this stop is normally only required in a jeu de Tierce.
That's really what I meant. I was wondering what the point of the Larigot was in my scheme, not the purpose of the stop per se. OK, so out it goes, to be replaced with an Orch Oboe. I'm going through a bit of an anti-mutation phase at the moment. It's a reaction to my bad habits acquired when learning the organ when the neo-Baroque was all the rage: one day I realised that I was automatically reaching for the bloody things every time I needed a solo combination (either that or a reed). It's fair enough some of the time, but there are other alternatives!
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The other tuba is , of course, vertical and is reputedly a fine stop in its own right if somewhat in the shadow of its more assertive companion.
It certainly was fine when I accompanied an evensong for a visiting choir there 30 years ago. As for the assertiveness of the bigger stop, it depends where you are. The choirmaster had put down Stanford in A, especially in order to savour its effect in the Nunc dimittis. We were all rather alarmed to discover that you could hardly hear it in the choirstalls. Since the smaller Tuba wasn't over-loud either, the only solution was to use both Tubas together! No doubt anyone standing west of the screen would have been flattened against the west door, but it only just passed muster in the choir. From what MM says, they've now rectified the situation with an east-facing reed. I'm not surprised.
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That's really what I meant. I was wondering what the point of the Larigot was in my scheme, not the purpose of the stop per se. OK, so out it goes, to be replaced with an Orch Oboe. I'm going through a bit of an anti-mutation phase at the moment. It's a reaction to my bad habits acquired when learning the organ when the neo-Baroque was all the rage: one day I realised that I was automatically reaching for the bloody things every time I needed a solo combination (either that or a reed). It's fair enough some of the time, but there are other alternatives!

 

I have the same thoughts, occasionally. Sometimes a JBS Chorale Prelude can sound just as good on a Hautboy, or even just an 8p diapason.

 

Be careful with orchestral oboes - they are notoriously difficult to keep in tune. You may spend half the time either tuning it - or just not being able to use it.

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It certainly was fine when I accompanied an evensong for a visiting choir there 30 years ago. As for the assertiveness of the bigger stop, it depends where you are. The choirmaster had put down Stanford in A, especially in order to savour its effect in the Nunc dimittis. We were all rather alarmed to discover that you could hardly hear it in the choirstalls. Since the smaller Tuba wasn't over-loud either, the only solution was to use both Tubas together! No doubt anyone standing west of the screen would have been flattened against the west door, but it only just passed muster in the choir. From what MM says, they've now rectified the situation with an east-facing reed. I'm not surprised.

 

Well, FJ did say it produced a remarkable effect on the WEST side of the screen and you would expect , as your experience seems to confirm, that such a stop would be far more directional than a conventionally disposed pipe. I bet it would set the rafters ringing if transported to one of those fairly modestly sized American churches that delight in having an organ twice the size that is actually needed , but in York the sound has to travel quite some way before hitting anything to reflect it back. The Bombarde was, according to John Scott Whiteley's notes to his Priory recording intended to provide a contrasting effect on the East side. He demonstrated it in his performance of the Guillou Toccata I believe but I am not leaving the warmth of the fire to go up to the record store (aka Study) to retrieve the CD and check this on a day like today. I am too busy fighting with the cat for possession of the chair by the fireside!!

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Yes - as far as I understand it, this stop is normally only required in a jeu de Tierce.

 

It can, of course, be used in trio sonati if something light and tinkly is required.

 

It can also be used to give notes for clergy who are disliked by organists....

 

Would not a device to switch all electric power to the pulpit handrail at an appropriate point be more effective/satisfying or would that be reserved for clergy who are really disliked by organists ?

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Would not a device to switch all electric power to the pulpit handrail at an appropriate point be more effective/satisfying or would that be reserved for clergy who are really disliked by organists ?

 

What an excellent idea, Brian!

 

Incidentally, I shall reply to your e-mail soon; apologies for the delay. Hopefully, if not tonight, then by Saturday evening.

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[i have been following this discussion with some interest and also some perplexity. How is it possible to design an organ (or indeed anything else) on the basis of so little information ? I would have thought that before setting out to construct a specification one would need to know rather more about the building and rather more about the needs and requirements of the users of the building.

 

"a large parish church" does not give much information as to size. A quite small ship is much bigger than a very large lorry ! Nor does it indicate anything about the shape or layout of the building: are there side aisles, transepts, galleries ? What are the relative roof elevations ? Where is the organ located and how does the sound reach the congregation ? Surely different consideration apply if the organ is to go in an elevated west gallery than those that apply if the organ is to be put in a hut outside and the sound piped into the building through some kind of tone chute as was effectively the fate of some cinema organs.

 

As to the requirements of the end user, since this design is for a parish church it is a liturgical organ and presumably an Anglican one. Since the Church of England seems to embrace within itself a greater variety of liturgical practice than almost any other denomination, ranging from those who think that the only change effected by the Reformation was to replace the Pope with the King so that we should continue with the Latin Mass to those who favour a form of worship not out of place in an Ebeneezer Chapel, surely one would need to know the particular liturgical practices of this Parish before deciding what stops have to take priority in the scheme. A large building which is often full to capacity (as some evangelical ones are) may need to prioritise power over colour to avoid the Bridgewater Hall effect. One with a normal scale of attendance (that is to say almost nobody attends) will not have this problem but might if it was a very attractive location and therefore a much sought after wedding venue for those who select the place where they will marry on the basis of how it will appear in the wedding photographs !

 

Without at least some of this information, it seems to me that such questions as whether a 32 ft reed on the pedal is more or less important than a graded range of 16foot stops admit of no sensible answer. Indeed , even the basic assumption of 40 stops and three manuals might be up for reassessment, as further information could reveal that more might be needed or less would serve just as well.

 

Brian Childs

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I would pick you up on this. I think a quint is an essential element of the chorus. Can you explain why you feel it is not?
Simply that 8, 4, 2 works perfectly satisfactorily and a Twelfth serves to obscure counterpoint and is not necessary where adequate mixturework is present (which it always should be, except organs of extremely modest proportions). It can be a useful colourant and may help bind reeds to flues, but nevertheless a chorus isn't compromised by leaving it out. There was an article to much the same effect in Organists' Review a few years ago - by Paul Hale, I think.
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Simply that 8, 4, 2 works perfectly satisfactorily and a Twelfth serves to obscure counterpoint and is not necessary where adequate mixturework is present (which it always should be, except organs of extremely modest proportions). It can be a useful colourant and may help bind reeds to flues, but nevertheless a chorus isn't compromised by leaving it out. There was an article to much the same effect in Organists' Review a few years ago - by Paul Hale, I think.

 

I agree, Vox Humana - I strongly dislike the 'quinty' efect of a Twelfth in a chorus. I find that by omitting it, I get a cleaner, more pure sound. I have never found that a twelfth helps to 'bind' a mixture - if a mixture needs binding, it probably needs revoicing.

 

I dislike even more, organs where piston-settings draw the Twelfth with the Fifteenth, giving 8, 4, 2 2/3 and 2 - this I find even more quinty.

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[i have been following this discussion with some interest and also some perplexity. How is it possible to design an organ (or indeed anything else) on the basis of so little information ? I would have thought that before setting out to construct a specification one would need to know rather more about the building and rather more about the needs and requirements of the users of the building.

 

"a large parish church" does not give much information as to size. A quite small ship is much bigger than a very large lorry ! Nor does it indicate anything about the shape or layout of the building: are there side aisles, transepts, galleries ? What are the relative roof elevations ? Where is the organ located and how does the sound reach the congregation ? Surely different consideration apply if the organ is to go in an elevated west gallery than those that apply if the organ is to be put in a hut outside and the sound piped into the building through some kind of tone chute as was effectively the fate of some cinema organs.

 

...

Brian Childs

 

 

Yes, Brian - of course this is eminently sensible. But you have missed one point - it is entertaining to sit back and produce schemes ranging in practicality from sensible to bizarre!

 

Sometimes it is nice to forget reality - and just dream.

 

Oh - excuse me - Anna K. is calling me again....

 

 

Now, where are those tissues?

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I am new here, but there really is no better presentation than designing the specifications of an organ. This one is strongly continental European in concept and it is what I would like in an organ for myself. I am assuming a medium-large sized european church, rather reverberant and I understand the organ is opposite to the altar, and the pipes some ten meters above ground. Tracker action; shove coupling II+I and I, II, III+P. Compass to g and to d (of f) in pedals; straight pedalboard. Electrical combinations. No swell. This is a baroque oriented organ.

 

I did not count the stops

 

So:

 

Great: (I)

 

Principal 16

Quintadena 16

Octave

Gemshorn 8

Octava II 4

Rauschpfeiffe II -2, 1 1/3, repeats at central c

InfraCymbel 3 2 1 1/3 repeats three times; at medium c it will be 6 4 3

Cymbel IV-VI 1, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, treble 4 3 2 2 1.5 1.5

Terz doppelt 2/3, 2/5 Repeats back to 1-3/5 1-1/3

Fundamental trompett 16

Trompett 8

II coupling

 

Oberwerk (II)

 

Principal 8 (narrow)

Spitzflöte 8 (narrow)

Octave 4

Spizflöte 4

Spitzquinte 3

Superoctava 2

Spillflöte 2

Quinta 1-1/3 (principal group)

Sexquialter 1-1/3, 4/5 (repeats to normal range at middle c)

Sharff VI 1, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6 (complex repeating)

Krumphorn 16

Vox humana 8

Oboe 8

Singend regal 8

Tremulant

 

Brustwerk (III)

 

Closed Wood 8 (rather chiffy)

Open wood 4

Principal 2

Nachthorn 2

Larigot 1-1/3

Accuta 1 (sort of a Schwiegel)

Cymbel III (2/3)

Regal 8

Tremulant

 

Pedal

 

Prinzipal 16

Gedackt 16

Quinta gedeckt 12

Octava 8

Open flute 8

Flute 4+2

Pleinsche 6, 4, 3, 2, 1-1/3, 1 (no repeats)

Posaune 32

Trombone 16

Dulzian 16

Trompete 8

I

II

III

 

All voicing on the quick side, chiffs audible throughout, scales on the narrow side of normal (except in pedal); the wind pressure won't withstand a tutti and the wind is slighlty unsteady (not too much): one must use registration carefully; pedals on separate windchest, stronger wind.

 

Concerning the use of a 16' on the manuals. This is a very large organ, with a 'rauschende' Hauptwerk with a lot of fifths, a subtle and airy bovenwerk (but very penetrating with a plenum registration) and a delicate 'wooden' brustwerk, with a nice rasping regal; a very deep pedal.

 

In this case, the 16' range in the manuals must be the unison pitch; therefore, there are mixtures that reinforce the 16' range. Both principal and trumpet 16 must be strong, and the trumpet must sound dark, tenebrous and steady (and rather strong).

 

In a smller organ I would definitely go for the quintadena alone concerning the 16' manuals: it allows you to play polyphony clearly. If the organ is not designed for polyphony, a bourdon would be better, but unless it is rather strong and the principal 8 rather large, you will just hear a hum under the plenum.

 

I did not include a Positiv because it never blends well with the HP when coupled: when you listen, the positiv reaches you first and only later the Great Organ; which means you cannot very well get a 16' tone because your ears get the 8' plenum before (the musical line will sound as a muddle - or as if the 16' drags painfully behind the positiv).

 

Finally: why just a gemshorn 8 as a flue in the HW? Because Gemshorns can, at the same time, accompany a solo (I mean, not as with a bordun, with which you listen to a vague glu-glu instead of a musical line) and also adds to the foundation of the plenum (being a tad principal-like).

 

 

There are many, many different kinds of organs. I chose this particular one as it seems to allow for a big part of the repertoire that interests me. However, for Buxtehude, a very sharp positiv is, perhaps, preferable to the oberwerk. The positiv could have a somewhat less bright composition than the oberwerk I presented.

 

Hope this is a sufficient presentation of myself.

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Simply that 8, 4, 2 works perfectly satisfactorily and a Twelfth serves to obscure counterpoint and is not necessary where adequate mixturework is present (which it always should be, except organs of extremely modest proportions). It can be a useful colourant and may help bind reeds to flues, but nevertheless a chorus isn't compromised by leaving it out. There was an article to much the same effect in Organists' Review a few years ago - by Paul Hale, I think.

 

====================

 

I absolutely agree with this, but with on proviso.

 

Most mixtures start to break-back soon after middle-C, and by the time they reach the octave above, the Twelfth is usually present; adding a certain gravity and strength to the 8ft foundation of which the 2.2/3 quit-harmonic is a component part.

 

Where a Twelfth scores, is when there is an open metal 16ft manual-double such as a Ganba, Gemshorn or Principal, where it really does bind, not the reeds, but the whole 16ft flue-chorus. It is perhaps for this reason, that a good 16ft Quintaton is an excellent chorus register for contrapuntal music; adding gravity rather than weight.

 

If there is one stop I hate, it is the one which draws the Twelfth and Fifteenth at the same time, as it does at St.Bart's, Armley. It's part of the reason why the five rank mixture, just behind the case facade, comes on to such crashing effect.

 

Wasn't it Lewis who arched the mouths of the quints slightly, to make them just a little "fluffier" in sound to improve the overall blend?

 

Of one thing I am sure, a good Twelfth is never over-assertive or over-bright, and when it is, it is a bad one.

 

MM

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========================

 

 

 

Probably something to do with Easter and Charles Wood's..."shall trump from East to West."

 

MM

 

I have that EP with the Bairstow Lamentation and his setting of Psalm 114 in addition to the Wood. FJ's sleeve note says: "The words 'Till 'trump from East to West' are dramatically underlined by a martial figure on an organ trumpet stop." Ron Perrin certainly lived up to that ! MM you would not by any chance be one of those "butter would not melt in the mouth" choristers standing behind FJ, Ron and the gentlemen of the choir in that sleeve photo would you ?

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Come to think of it, as you can see the resonators from the nave floor, they must be arranged horizontally or at least at an angle.  Otherwise they'd have to be wound round like a french horn to fit into the space.

 

The Tuba Mirabilis is, for the most part, horizontal, although the boots and part of the resonators are vertical. In a way, they are indeed 'wound round like a french horn'!

 

There is an excellent photograph of an internal view of these pipes in the booklet 'The Organs of York Minster.

 

I could post it on this site if I knew how!

 

John

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Yes, Brian - of course this is eminently sensible. But you have missed one point - it is entertaining to sit back and produce schemes ranging in practicality from sensible to bizarre!

 

Sometimes it is nice to forget reality - and just dream.

 

Oh - excuse me - Anna K. is calling me again....

Now, where are those tissues?

 

I rather suspected this but wanted to have it confirmed. Released from all restraint I shall now settle down to devising a specification replete with tonal percussions, very smooth Tubas and all my other personal favourites.

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I rather suspected this but wanted to have it confirmed. Released from all restraint I shall now settle down to devising a specification replete with tonal percussions, very smooth Tubas and all my other personal favourites.

 

 

Mmmm.... thanks, Brian - I cannot wait....

 

However, I will have to, because I am away for a few days( from later this morning, until Saturday evening).

 

No doubt I shall be drooling with anticipation - all those nasty percussion stops to criticise!

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Greetings,

 

Now don't laugh, but I thought one of my first attempts at designing an instrument fit pretty closely to the task here so I post it with all humility. I think it's a hair larger at 42 speaking stops (not including duplexing for instance), but I designed it complete with drawings for a specific chamber for a specific large Episcopal Parish Church which seats about 1200-1300 with a tall clerestory and no padding whatsoever... The bulk of the instrument would be in a floor-to-ceiling chancel chamber with the Unenclosed Choir on the opposite side under a deep arch with built-in English-style console (thank you).

 

- Nathan

 

Great Organ - Manual I/II, 4" w.p.

 

16' Double Open Diapason - Ext. Second Open Diapason

8' First Open Diapason - 42 scale, common metal, 1/4 mouth

8' Second Open Diapason - 44 scale, common metal, 1/5 mouth

8' Claribel Flute - 3 1/2" x 4 1/2" scale, open wood, standard mouth

4' Principal - 55 scale, spotted metal, slotted, 1/4 mouth

4' Octave - Ext. Second Open Diapason

4' Flute D' Amour - 2 3/16" x 3" scale, wood, pierced stoppers

2' Fifteenth - 68 scale, spotted metal, 1/4 mouth

IV Fourniture - 8-12-15-19

8' Tromba - 4" scale, spotted metal

8' Clarinet - Duplexed from Choir

 

Swell Organ - Manual III, Enclosed, 6" w.p.

 

16' Contra Gamba - 44 scale, spotted metal, 1/4 mouth, slotted, 1-12 Haskellized

8' Open Diapason - 43 scale, common metal, 1/5 mouth

8' Salicional - 61 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth, slotted

8' Voix Celeste - 61 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth, slotted

8' Rohr Floete - 50 scale, common metal, 1/4 mouth, pierced mushroom stoppers

8' Aeoline - 58 scale, spotted metal, 1/5 mouth, slotted

4' Fugara - 56 scale, common metal, slotted, 1/5 mouth

4' Flute Triangulaire - Skinner Style

2' Flageolet - 68 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth

IV Plein Jeu - 12-22-26-29

16' Waldhorn - 5" scale, spotted metal

8' French Trumpet - 4" scale, spotted metal

8' Vox Humana - 2" scale, spotted metal

4' Clarion (Ext. Waldhorn)

 

Unenclosed Choir - Manual I/II, 3" w.p.

 

8' Principal - 45 scale, spotted metal, 1/4 mouth

8' Bourdon - 52 scale, common metal, 1/4 mouth, canisters

4' Octave - 58 scale, spotted metal, 1/4 mouth

4' Koppel Floete - 58 scale, common metal, 1/4 mouth

2 2/3' Twelfth - 64 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth, 1/2 taper

2' Block Flute - 68 scale, spotted metal, 1/5 mouth, 1/2 taper

1 3/5' Tierce - 74 scale, common metal, 1/5 mouth

1 1/3' Larigot - 72 scale, common metal, 2/9 mouth

1 1/7' Septieme - 76 scale, common metal, 1/4 mouth

III Scharf - 22-26-29

 

 

Choir Organ - Manual I, Enclosed, 5" w.p.

 

8' Gamba - 56 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth, slotted

8' Melodia - 3" x 4" scale, open wood, inverted mouth

8' Bois Celeste - 3" x 4" scale, open wood, inverted mouth

4' Gambette - 70 scale, spotted metal, 1/4 mouth, slotted

4' Harmonic Flute - 58 scale, common metal, 1/5 mouth, harmonic at Middle C

2' Harmonic Piccolo - 72 scale, spotted metal, 2/9 mouth, harmonic at Tenor C

III Dolce Cornet - 12-15-17

8' Clarinet - 2" Scale, spotted metal, slotted

 

Pedal Organ - 5" w.p.

 

32' Resultant Bass - Bourdon + Lieblich Gedeckt

16' First Open Diapason - #1 scale, open wood

16' Second Open Diapason - Great

16' Bourdon - #1 scale - stopped wood

16' Lieblich Gedeckt - 5 1/2" x 7" scale - stopped wood

16' Contra Gamba - Swell

8' Octave - Ext. First Open Diapason

8' Cello - Swell

8' Gedeckt - Ext. Bourdon

8' Dolce Flute - Ext. Lieblich Gedeckt

4' Super Octave - Ext First Open Diapason

32' Fagotto - Ext. Swell Waldhorn

16' Trombone - Wood, 10"x10" scale, 10" w.p.

16' Waldhorn - Swell

8' Tromba - Great

4' Clarinet - Choir

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Simply that 8, 4, 2 works perfectly satisfactorily and a Twelfth serves to obscure counterpoint and is not necessary where adequate mixturework is present (which it always should be, except organs of extremely modest proportions). [...]

 

Curious, I feel quite the contrary. A quint 3 is usefull in counterpoint, especially if you draw the Quintadena 16 also. It strengthens the 8' tone and I actually find it usefull in counterpoint. That said, I do not like it all that much. Obversely, I very much like the sound of the II Rauschpfeiffe. The octave is stronger than the twelfth (at least that is how I like it). I do not like a 8 4 2 principal chorus in the Great Organ, but rather like a 8 4 3 2 or alternatively, 8 4 II. The penultimate variation of Von Himmel Hoch (Bach) sounds marvelously well with this registration on the right hand (in a good, clear organ).

 

That said, I have listened and played organs that are great in the strangest combinations. So there may be horrible twelves and quite good ones.

 

Small note: Would it not have been interesting if one were to make the specifications to a rather small chappel? Say 12*6*8m? In which case one would be able to write down all the mixtures, specify scales (more or less precisely), voicing and the tone one would want to obtain?

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"Would it not have been interesting if one were to make the specifications to a rather small chappel? Say 12*6*8m? In which case one would be able to write down all the mixtures, specify scales (more or less precisely), voicing and the tone one would want to obtain?"

(Quote)

Dear Rodrigo,

 

You may open a new thread with it then.

Pierre

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