St Eustache, Paris

[Keitha]

The huge Van den Heuvel at St Eustache doesn't appear to have worn terribly well and the Church and the City of Paris are planning a significant rebuild to sort out collapsing pipes, poor voicing, leaking wind and action issues. The tracker/Barker lever action is being removed completely to be replaced by electro-pneumatic action operating from both the in-case and mobile consoles. Apparently, according to Thomas Ospital (assuming I understood his French correctly in a recent broadcast!), the current combination of mobile console electric and fixed console tracker are just too complicated to work properly and the tracker is unreliable.

In addition a choir organ is proposed to be added on the Sanctuary which will have its own console and also be playable from the Grand Orgue consoles. Apparently it will all cost c€3million to be funded by external fundraising (ie not by the City or the Church).

The action change is particularly interesting. There don't seem to be too many problems at Symphony Hall, Birmingham, Bridgewater Hall, Manchester or other UK venues with similar 'split' action, but I'm always intrigued to see that most recitalists at such venues use the mobile electric action consoles rather than the fixed tracker ones. I assume because it enable the audience to see more?

[Rowland Wateridge]

Some possible shortcomings of the St Eustache organ were mentioned in one of the late Stephen Bicknell‘s ‘Irreverent Essays’.  Although presented in a humorous style with much embellishment, using pseudonyms for the venue, organbuilder and participants, his opinion of the organ will be found by scrolling down to about the last one-third of the page:

https://www.stephenbicknell.org/3.6.62.php

You will see that he specifically refers to the Barker levers, among much else, and votes the ‘Cor de Bassett’ donated by Henry Willis III to Joseph Bonnet as the best stop in the organ!

[S_L]

I can't comment on the action or the instrument at St Eustache except to say that the last time I was at Mass there, possibly 10 years ago, the music that preceded the Mass, played on the West End organ, was so loud I thought it was going to jump off the back wall and attack me. I don't think I have ever heard anything quite so loud.

I might be wrong but I remember being not too impressed with either the orgue du choeur or the singing of the Mass and, when it came to antiphonally singing Credo III (La Marseillaise of the Catholic church in France, I once heard it described) it was almost impossible to sing the congregation verses with the west end organ. 

[John Furse]

I agree with S_L: on the one occasion (in the 90s) I visited this fabulous church with the orgues being played, I thought I would have concussion, so head-splittingly loud was the volume.

As regards the state of the instrument(s), Hyperion released this month a CD of David Briggs's music (with improvisations) recorded in July 2022. In the over a dozen one-minute clips available to listen to for free, it don't sound too bad at all.

That's not to say how difficult it was for the performer (Briggs) to achieve this.

 

[contraviolone]

Having listened to this organ in person on several occasions, I must agree with comments regarding the power of this instrument. I wouldn't mind if it made a pleasant sound, but since it does not the overall impression is not good. Recordings also confirm this, but it is even worse when attending a recital or service. I wouldn't be surprised if the Henry Willis III stop was the best stop on the organ!

Why they employed a Dutch firm in the first place beats me. They should tender for a new contract with French builders, and throw the whole instrument out. 

[Colin Pykett]

There do seem to have been some action issues.  It was reported c. 1995 that a 'comprehensive computer crash' occurred following an electrical storm, though the date when this happened was not mentioned.  However it was also said that this ruled out some planned recordings of Messiaen's works by Gillian Weir.  Then the builder's website currently states that 'in 2010, the electronics were replaced with a state-of-the-art bus-technology system'.  Probably the former, and certainly the latter, will have involved significant expenditure, in common with all major refurbishments of electronically-controlled organ actions.  Those just mentioned are in addition to the planned work mentioned by Keitha above.  Against this could be set the argument that major interventions in the affairs of pipe organs every few decades might be deemed reasonable, particularly for large and important instruments such as this one which see heavy usage.

[Keitha]

Here is a link to a fundraising Youtube video where Thomas Ospital comments on the project:

https://www.facebook.com/GrandOrgueSaintEustache/videos/344094011910253 

 

 

[Choir Man]

I recall that a few weeks before Christmas they had to cancel their usual Sunday recital becasue of some problem between the console and the organ.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but might the penchant for furiously fast improvisations cause the action to wear out faster?

[S_L]

1 hour ago, Choir Man said:

Slightly tongue in cheek, but might the penchant for furiously fast improvisations cause the action to wear out faster?

LOL - the improvisation I heard was based on repeated notes up and down each of the five keyboards - furiously fast - and LOUD!!!

[SomeChap]

I'm no expert and haven't heard the instrument in person (one day...) but there is definitely something idiosyncratic about the action at St Eustache:  just watch the first thirty seconds or so of this video and you'll see that the detached console is just a relay, pulling down the actual mechanical keys of the tribune console!   If you watch the end of the video you'll see that this even extends to the mechanical octave couplers; as one wag puts it in the comments "Man, that ghost sure has a lot of fingers!".

So to Keitha's point, it's not the same solution as the dual actions used at Symphony Hall / Bridgewater Hall / Manchester Cathedral et al. According to one comment I read, there's a computer in there somewhere at St Eustache, and if it's a 90s computer it will definitely be at the end of its life!

Replacing it with a more conventional EP action could well be a sensible route to take.  We were very wedded to mechanical action in the 90s weren't we!

Side query - why do so few French cathedral organs have detached consoles?  Putting one in Notre Dame would be an absolute sensation!

SC

[Contrabombarde]

What a confusing omission - from that video above, when the nave console is played, the notes on the mechanical console move, but not the drawstops!

I suppose if the electric assistance was at the soundboards it would have been relatively straightforward to convert the gallery console to electric action, but if the electric action pulls the Barker motors at console level, you'd have to completely redesign the action surely? What would be a likely course of action (pun intended!) from here - retain soundboard but fit solenoids and pneumatic motors to the pallets or go direct electric?

[Rowland Wateridge]

1 hour ago, Contrabombarde said:

…. when the nave console is played, the notes on the mechanical console move, but not the drawstops!

Isn’t that due to the French registration techniques using ventils?  The stops are all pre-set and it is the ventils which deliver wind to the chosen registration.  It was noticeable that all five manuals were coupled but the octave couplers only operated on the manual(s) where they were drawn.  The same is seen in videos at St Sulpice.

[A Caskie]

On 16/01/2024 at 13:05, SomeChap said:

I'm no expert and haven't heard the instrument in person (one day...) but there is definitely something idiosyncratic about the action at St Eustache:  just watch the first thirty seconds or so of this video and you'll see that the detached console is just a relay, pulling down the actual mechanical keys of the tribune console!   If you watch the end of the video you'll see that this even extends to the mechanical octave couplers; as one wag puts it in the comments "Man, that ghost sure has a lot of fingers!".

So to Keitha's point, it's not the same solution as the dual actions used at Symphony Hall / Bridgewater Hall / Manchester Cathedral et al. According to one comment I read, there's a computer in there somewhere at St Eustache, and if it's a 90s computer it will definitely be at the end of its life!

Replacing it with a more conventional EP action could well be a sensible route to take.  We were very wedded to mechanical action in the 90s weren't we!

Side query - why do so few French cathedral organs have detached consoles?  Putting one in Notre Dame would be an absolute sensation!

SC

I have not visited St Eustache, but it is most unlikely that anything is pulling down the mechanical keys.  More likely is that there are magnets pulling on the trackers at some stage, and thus all the mechanical action BEFORE that point falls slack, so the attached keys simply fall down as an incidental side-effect.  This can be overcome, if desired, by fitting springs to the keys to keep them up, though this extra spring force then has to be allowed for elsewhere in the action.

[A Caskie]

17 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Isn’t that due to the French registration techniques using ventils?  The stops are all pre-set and it is the ventils which deliver wind to the chosen registration.  It was noticeable that all five manuals were coupled but the octave couplers only operated on the manual(s) where they were drawn.  The same is seen in videos at St Sulpice.

No, it won't be anything to do with the ventils, if indeed St Eustache has them: it may or may not; the specification suggests not.  On Cavaillé-Coll organs, the ventils isolate the wind supply to the upperwork and reeds, but don't move any sliders.  But, as above, I don't think St Eustache has ventils.

[Rowland Wateridge]

It would be helpful to have some firm information from someone who knows the instrument!

My admittedly limited knowledge/ experience of ventils was a demonstration of them on the small, but very effective, C-C/ Mutin organ at St Michael’s Abbey, Farnborough (Hampshire).

Edited:  Although I remain somewhat perplexed by this phenomenon, this is the builder’s detailed website page describing the organ, and of interest in its own right: 

https://vandenheuvel-orgelbouw.nl/en/cms/frankrijk-en/sainteustacheparis-en

[SomeChap]

Many thanks to [I'm assuming Andrew] Caskie for those clarifications and to Rowland Wateridge for the link to the vdH site, which answers our questions:

Quote

[...] The electronic stop action has a shared combination system for both consoles.

Gallery console: the action is direct tracker for the Positif and Grand-Orgue, and is assisted by Barker levers for Récit, Grand-Choeur, Solo and Pédale and, ad libitum, for the Grand-Orgue. In order to avoid the very disturbing noise of the Barker machines when the organ is played they are put in a big insulated room with triple walls.

Nave console: the transmission is electronic using a bus-system which powers magnets attached to mechanical action between key and Barker. The system also provides also the additional couplers.

 

[Adnosad]

On 13/01/2024 at 10:37, John Furse said:

I agree with S_L: on the one occasion (in the 90s) I visited this fabulous church with the orgues being played, I thought I would have concussion, so head-splittingly loud was the volume.

As regards the state of the instrument(s), Hyperion released this month a CD of David Briggs's music (with improvisations) recorded in July 2022. In the over a dozen one-minute clips available to listen to for free, it don't sound too bad at all.

That's not to say how difficult it was for the performer (Briggs) to achieve this.

         

  Allow me to impertinently agree with your last sentence and suggest that it was probably not very difficult for Briggs to achieve an acceptable sound level on what I think is a superb instrument.  Any instrument can be made to sound " too loud "  for reasons perfectly obvious to anyone. To use the old adage " only a bad workman blames his tools ".  

   VdH have a considerable corpus of good work, grounded in The Dutch  School   and to say that this instrument should be consigned to the skip is a trifle ridiculous (   IMHO that is )

The Widor recordings made by JPS on the aforesaid instrument  perfectly illustrate this point.

Not too sure as to the date of this instrument, probably the mid ` 70`s? but it is bound to be suffering from the usual old age problems common to any instrument.

 

    

 

[Keitha]

The organ was built in 1989. I was last at St Eustache in late 2021, when I was conscious of the occasional wind problem and some action noises, but generally it sounded fine, but it was clear that work would be needed in the near future.

Thomas Ospital was playing at Mass and it didn't seem too loud at any stage - but we had some fun at the end, with plenty of volume!😀

[sprondel]

About the City of Paris (Coignet) not choosing a French builder: If I recall correctly, vdH back then were one of very few firms that confidently built and voiced in a style somewhat close to Cavaillé-Coll practice, and had the means to shoulder a project of this scale. They were much in demand in the 80ies and 90ies. Disenchantment came soon after that.

I recall a visiting player reporting that the Barker cabinet floor war full of leather scraps. Apparently the Barker was under extremely high pessure. On first thought, the idea to put the Barker between the electric action and the windchests seems quite sound, since the attack then would resemble that of the mechanical action. Interesting, how it all turned out.