Peter Clark Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I suspect that like many organists on this forum, I was reared on the Novello edition of JSB, and so even with a piece which is really well known to the player, the score still acts as a prompt during performance. But what happens when you use a different edition? I may be alone here, but I found recently to my horror and embarrassment that using the Mayhew edition (a totally "clean" edition ie no registration or dynamic suggestions) the notes just weren't in the right place sometimes (eg upper stave carrying notes I am used to seeing on the lower manual stave and so on), causing multiple errors. My fault, I know, since I should have studied the new score a little more diligently but be warned! By the way who else uses the Mayhew edition? Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Can't beat Dover for value for money... Complete P's and F's - USD10.95 (~£5.50) BWV531,2,3,4,5,6,9,41,2,3,45-51 + 8 Short T's Fant's, Passa and other works - USD11.95 BWV537,8,40,42,62,3,4,5,6,8,9,70,72,3,4,4a,5,8,9,82 Organ Music (USD13.95) 6 Trio Sonatas, ClaiverU III, Orgelbuchlein, Schubler and the XVIII The only trouble is, it's the Gesellschaft, so quite a lot of C clefs in the Chorale Preludes. I reckon even this is no bad thing - it makes me learn them instead of just mindlessly sightreading them. But I did have to relearn one or two of the works - as Peter says, finding notes laid out differently between the hands somewhere in the throes of a big fugue is surprisingly fatal! Actually, technically you can beat Dover for VFM: this edition is freely downloadable from several places on the web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 So I'm not the only one then! I have this quaint idea that if you're going to spend time and effort learning to play the right notes it's a bit of a waste of time if the "right notes" are the wrong notes. So over the years I've replaced several old editions with more up-to-date and reliable ones: Bach, Buxtehude, Brahms, Krebs, some Mendelssohn, some Rheinberger. Almost invariably I find the new editions really distracting. It's not only the allocation of the notes between the hands, though this is probably the most significant factor: even things like the typeface and the spacing of the bars can make a piece feel very different. Sometimes the effort involved in re-learning the pieces hardly seems worth the end result. The Bach edition I now use is the Bärenreiter Neue Bach-Ausgabe, which is supposed to be the last word in Bach scholarship. But does anyone share my misgivings about it? Not only does the Bach of BWV 562 seem an entirely different character from the Bach of BWV546, quite a few of the readings on other works simply seem inferior to me (I would especially single out the Fantasia & Fugue in G minor). This is purely an emprical reaction, though - I'm not a Bach scholar. I would certainly feel diffident about recommending the Bärenreiter, not just because of the above, but also because it is a direct offprint of a library editions and so has a complete disregard for practical page turns. I don't know which Bach edition offers the best combination of reliable readings and user-friendliness, but I rather like the volumes I have seen of Heinz Lohmann's edition for Breitkopf & Härtel. A few years ago OUP were trumpeting a new edition of Bach's organ works which was "in preparation". It even got as far as being listed in their catalogue. Whatever happened to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 But does anyone share my misgivings about it?Andrew Fletcher once told me that he thought that Urtext was all very well, but that when the source contained obvious misprints / copyists slips etc etc, he didn't think it was doing anybody any favours to reprint them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Andrew Fletcher once told me that he thought that Urtext was all very well, but that when the source contained obvious misprints / copyists slips etc etc, he didn't think it was doing anybody any favours to reprint them... I'd play from facsimiles of the original editions or MSS if I could get hold of them - that way I'd feel closer to the composer. Certainly there's something about the way Messiaen or Duruflé looks on the page that informs, if only subconsciously, how we perceive the music, and there's no reason that turn of the 17th Century German "house style" wouldn't do the same for JSB. Although I suppose a blind musician's perception would bypass the written appearance. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Andrew Fletcher once told me that he thought that Urtext was all very well, but that when the source contained obvious misprints / copyists slips etc etc, he didn't think it was doing anybody any favours to reprint them...That sounds as if he thinks producing an Urtext edition means that you automatically reproduce copyists' errors. It doesn't, of course. It's an editor's job to edit. Editors can of course make bad decisions (Alas, I've been guilty myself in the past.)I'd play from facsimiles of the original editions or MSS if I could get hold of them - that way I'd feel closer to the composer. Certainly there's something about the way Messiaen or Duruflé looks on the page that informs, if only subconsciously, how we perceive the music, and there's no reason that turn of the 17th Century German "house style" wouldn't do the same for JSB.I recently replaced my old Peters edition of Lübeck with the Bärenreiter one which is entirely on two staves. There's a lot to be said for that approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Thorne Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Bach editions are always a problem. I use the Breitkopf which is ok. I find the Bärenreiter a little awkward to read as the notes appear in almost any stave unlike the Novello edition which is more user friendly. It's always good to cross-check with other editions. I love the facsimiles over the Clavier Ubung and the Orgelbuchlein, which are published by Peters and Bärenreiter respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 That sounds as if he thinks producing an Urtext edition means that you automatically reproduce copyists' errors. He was talking about Bärenreiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 He was talking about Bärenreiter Bärenreiter has misprints of its own but the scholarship behind the text is thorough; the motivation of the editors was generally to present Bach's final intention. To be fully informed of how the final text was arrived at you need to read the Critische Bericht (?sp.) that is printed to accompany each volume of music; unfortunately they are quite expensive and, I think, only available in German. Try your nearest university music faculty library. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Ewen Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 But just to ask the question again (yes, I know I didn't ask it originally), what do people think about the Mayhew complete Bach edition? They're doing it on special offer at £99 for the lot, which seems cheap, but not sure if its any good. JE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 The Mayhew Bach is said to be very user-friendly interms of clarity of layout and ease of page turns. From the very cursory look I had at a few volumes in our local music shop once I would agree with this. Another plus point is that it's uncluttered by editorial suggestions for registration and phrasing. The editor was Alan Ridout. What this means I confess I have no idea. Ridout doesn't figure among the elite of Bach scholarship and, though I may be doing him an immense injustice, I seriously doubt that his text was the result of a meticulous and scholarly assessment of the source material. My guess is that his editing consisted of taking some established edition and simply imposing his layout on it. It all depends on what his source was. If his source text was that of the Neue Bach-Ausgabe you could be onto a real winner. On the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwhodges Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 But just to ask the question again (yes, I know I didn't ask it originally), what do people think about the Mayhew complete Bach edition? They're doing it on special offer at £99 for the lot, which seems cheap, but not sure if its any good. Although their web site still mentions that £99 offer, it also says it ends on 30 Nov 06, and clicking "buy" puts £250 on your basket. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 The Mayhew Bach ... The editor was Alan Ridout. <snip> If his source text was that of the Neue Bach-Ausgabe you could be onto a real winner. On the other hand... The editorial work of the NBA is still protected by copyright. Some of the "misprints" in Bärenreiter will be to help establish copyright infringement. Anyone care to do a note-by-note comparison? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel ALLCOAT Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Anything with the words Walter Emery on the cover can bring the player to a fine musical page. Rest assured. All best seasonal greetings, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Barry Williams Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Can't beat Dover for value for money... Complete P's and F's - USD10.95 (~£5.50) BWV531,2,3,4,5,6,9,41,2,3,45-51 + 8 Short T's Fant's, Passa and other works - USD11.95 BWV537,8,40,42,62,3,4,5,6,8,9,70,72,3,4,4a,5,8,9,82 Organ Music (USD13.95) 6 Trio Sonatas, ClaiverU III, Orgelbuchlein, Schubler and the XVIII The only trouble is, it's the Gesellschaft, so quite a lot of C clefs in the Chorale Preludes. I reckon even this is no bad thing - it makes me learn them instead of just mindlessly sightreading them. But I did have to relearn one or two of the works - as Peter says, finding notes laid out differently between the hands somewhere in the throes of a big fugue is surprisingly fatal! Actually, technically you can beat Dover for VFM: this edition is freely downloadable from several places on the web. The advantage of tenor and alto clefs is that the player avoids having to read complex leger (ledger) lines. The very small effort needed for those clefs is amply justified by the ease of reading. Regrettably, most modern editions 'translate' the score into treble and bass clefs. The original scores have many tenor and alto clefs. Barry Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 The very small efforthmm... I wouldn't got quite that far! I think it depends on your skill level! :angry: but it does get easier with familiarity...although I wouldn't say that Wachet Auf hasn't had a few note names added for belt and braces' sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Can't beat Dover for value for money... Actually, technically you can beat Dover for VFM: this edition is freely downloadable from several places on the web. Where can the websites be found? Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 I'd probably start here: http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:...ohann_Sebastian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 I'd probably start here:http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:...ohann_Sebastian Thanks for the link! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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