nfortin

God, now you've really made me look silly. Obvious now you mention it. Maybe though (clutching at straws) the tendancy to rush into initials is not always the clearest way to communicate?

Or even organists with no diploma (perhaps the majority). I quite agree that any choir trainer that has not themself studied voice production should hang their head in shame. Surely none of us would set up as a violin teacher if we had never received formal tuition in the instrument and, hopefully, reached a reasonable level of accomplishment ourself? Not sure however about your last sentence, cant quite decide whether its tongue in cheek. Its probably better to have childen encouraged to sing even if badly trained that not encouraged at all. I often think that, were I a school teacher, if I spotted a pupil with a particular talent, I would see it as my duty to put them in touch with the relevant local association (or give them a list) that specialised in fostering that talent. For example, if you were to notice a good runner, surely you'd take the trouble to find out the contact for the local athletics club and point the parents in the right direction. My impression is that this rarely, if ever, happens. What a waste. This sort of behaviour (from teachers) should be what the government puts effort into correcting. Teachers in schools, particularly junior schools, can not be expected to have great skills in particular sports, drama, visual arts or music, so why not encourage them to spot potential and point children to the vast array of local organisations able to support and develop those talents? Even at secondary schools, particularly in the state sector (to which my children subscribe) the level of expertise shown by music teachers is woeful. What is it that makes school teachers believe that conducting a choir is all about putting your hands higher or lower depending upon the pitch of the notes?

You've lost me here, there are no Tubas on the Bristol Cathedral organ. There is a single major solo reed, which I believe is original Walker material, and is a fairly fat Tromba. Its an amazing stop that certainly makes a major contribution to the extremely warm and opulent tutti. Quite what it has to do with any tubas at St. Paul's I fail to see.

Interesting, it sort of links back to the theme about what makes a particular organ builder's unique sound - its interesting to think that they might not even be making their own pipes. Whilst I'm reluctant to broadcast my ignorance I'm going to have to come clean. What on earth is CLC ?

I know that these discussion topics frequently wander off down unexpected paths, but surely this one takes the biscuit. Organ anoracks may be sad people, but who in their right mind wants to read endless postings about keyboard shortcuts? Please get back on topic or let it die.

Whilst anything that encourages more participation in music is obviously a good thing, I wonder how many primary schools have anyone capable of teaching children to sing properly. I've frequently had to deal with the complication that primary school teachers give the children instructions directly the opposite of good singing technique - like "look up for the high notes", which makes the church choir-trainer's life so much more difficult. I also wonder just how dumbed-down the 10 chosen songs will be, not just in terms of musical style, but also in the range of the notes. When I did teacher training in the late 70's I vividly remember the head of the music department instructing us students (most of whom studiously wrote it down, whilst I of course argued) never to pick anything that went above a D (ie. 4th line treble clef) because 'junior school children cant sing that high'.

Its good for Cheltenham to have a major new pipe organ. The hall itself is one of the most dreadful rooms for making music that I've ever had the misfortune to perform in, so it will be interesting to see how the organ copes. It can't fail to outperform its predecessor which was buried beneath the stage. How common is it for an organ builder of this stature not to make their own pipes?

Are we naming and shaming? A dodgy game perhaps. I would have to say that I've found the state of the console area in a famous midlands collegiate church generally matches the beauty of the sound of its west-end organ.

Whilst I'm sure that that's sympathic and good advice, I always treat such requests with extreme caution. There can't be a week that goes by when its not someone's wedding anniversary, or some such, so if it becomes known that people can make requests on this basis where will it all end? You can end up with some odd, and frankly unsuitable, choices which whilst making one individual happy will potentially leave the rest of the congregation baffled.

Hey, there's no need to send me into insolvency!

I couldn't agree more, for the reasons you have explained in your later post which match my circumstances closely. I can't quite reconcile your statement above with your admiration of the one major instrument over which we disagree though!

When I was a choir-boy in the late 60s and early 70s, we had a curate who, whilst having many other virutes, was muiscally illiterate. I afraid to say that we took great delight in doctoring the printed music lists to see what we could get him to announce. Our most spectacular success was probably "Lo startled chiefs" by Dr. Crotch, although this in itself was not a total success because we'd actually altered it to read 'Lo startled chefs".

I've only played at Romsey the once, but certainly found the action and touch to be very good. It was really the console layout, and lack of playing aids, that I was commenting upon - altough I guess there are few consoles of this age, on organs of this size, still in use so its perhaps an unfair comparison.

Generally I would say that it is the tonal qualities that colour our opinion of different instruments and builders. Certainly from the listeners' perspective this is all that counts. From a player's perspective its less clear cut. Console design and quality, action reliability and touch cut in here. From my own perspective one admires and enjoys playing the organs of Bristol Cathedral and Romsey Abbey despite their console (Romsey) and action (Bristol) but this leaves an impression of a builder, at a point of time, that had full control of their tonal palette sadly unmatched by the mechanical and ergenomic aspects of organ design and control. At the opposite of end of the spectrum possibly H&H's long unchallenged position as contract holder of choice for the maintenance of the major organs in this country must have owed something to the (often disccussed on this formum) unsurpassed comfort of their consoles. As a player, one's reflections of, for example, the wonderful Willis organ in Hereford Cathedral can not be divorced from the comfort and memory of its very typical Willis III console. So, I suppose, what I'm saying, is that the answer to the original question depends in part upon whether you're just listening or playing the instrument. From a listener's perspective only the sound counts, but as a player our whole experience of a particular builder is coloured not only by the sound, but also by whether the instrument is comfortable (and easy) to play.

Sean, I know that the degree to which we agree on the issues regarding the scrapping of the Worcester Cathedral organ is matched by the degree to which we disagree about the vitues of its Gloucester counterpart. But this difference of opinion is based upon its tonal qualities which, I accept have considerable merits, but personally believe leave an organ which is both inadequate in leading large congregations and unsuitable for performing its bread-and-butter job of accompanying choral evensong. However, I find it difficult to believe that even its most ardent supporter could take such an uncritical view of the HNB action. The simple fact of the matter is that an organ which, to all extents and purposes, was entirely new in 1969 has subsequently undergone two major rebuilds due mainly to its mechanical inadequacies. Its touch and responsiveness may have won admirers but its reliability and longevity were disasterous.

Richard, I think on this occasion you're being a little unfair. The views expressed by Duliana and backed up by pcnd are, from my recollection, fairly new to this web site and somewhat like the emporer's new clothes - its what many of us have come to believe but nobody liked to say. Regular correspondents will know that I love Willis I and Willis III organs. Living in Cheltenham I have reasonably close access, and recent playing experience, of a vast array of significant organs including those in the cathedrals and "great churches" at Worcester, Gloucester, Birmingham, Exeter, Bristol, Tewkesbury, Bath, Romsey, Lichfield, Sherborne, etc... I would rate the Willis organs at Hereford and Tenbury as the equal or better of any/all of these (although I certainly rate Bristol Cathedral, St. Mary Redcliffe and Lichfield very highly too) and regard Westminster Cathedral as the finest organ in the country. I'm of the generation whose teachers extoled the virtues of the Ally Pally organ and who therefore longed for the day when it would "sing" again. However it has become clear that this is just no longer feasible and never going to happen. There is no point endlessly chasing after the unobtainable so it is time to accept that, for lovers of the romantic organ, this is a lost treasure.

As a result of your query I've just been looking up the old (Fr Smith, Gray & Davison, Willis & H&H) and new (Reiger) specifications on NPOR, regular readers will not find it difficult to guess which I prefer. As I recall this was a sorry tale. A contract for the restoration of the old organ was awarded, I believe, to an overseas firm who dismantled the organ, removed the pipework to their workshop, and then promptly went bust. The legal position was such that the pipework was effectively lost to the colledge/cathedral with the result that they had no option but to commission a new organ. I must stress that this is my personal recollection of events as came to me through the grapevine. I'm sure someone with closer or more accurate information will correct any glaring errors.

I agree with that. Its true that the odd subject disappears off down a spiralling trail of schoolboy humour (to which I'm not immune) but of course one can always stop reading. I would like to think that, on the whole, whether we agree with all comments and opinions or not we respect each others views and avoid personal attacks and insults. I'm always happy to accept, for example, that whilst my personal opinion is that the Gloucester organ, whatever its merits as a recital instrument, is not fit for purpose, I openly acknowledge that very many people regard it as a very fine instrument indeed. I'm very sorry that I don't think Frank Fowler has been active on the board following a comment of mine regarding HNB. This is a difficult case for me - I don't feel I can apologise for giving, as far as memory allows, an accurate statement of an unsatisfactory experience in dealing with this particular company. This doesn't mean that I don't respect Frank's views. experience and opinions and certainly think the message board is enriched by the presence of such eminent figures.

I do agree, Pierre's absence seems to date from around the time of the nasty anti-Belgian comment that I criticised before. Perhaps an apology is in order.

I'm sure. like many other readers, I'm sorry that things have not worked out for Paul at HTH. Its a tricky thing this relationship between the DOM and the clergy. For myself, once I've been appointed to a post I expect to be left to get on with it with appropriate interest and feedback welcome but without interferance of any kind. I'm very lucky in my present post to have a vicar who is very musical and takes a keen and informed interest in everything to do with the choir but leaves me free to get on with the job. Like Paul, I suspect, I cannot abide anything that in my judgement is either bad manners or, at best, gross insensitivity. This certainly includes clergy that feel it appropriate to talk over organ playing - for example if they cant wait for an improvisation to come to a closing cadence. Its only fair in such circumstances for the organist to be free to start the next hymn once they feel the sermon has gone on long enough. I also get very frustrated when an officiant is unable to allow that moment for the atmosphere created by a sensitive performance to pass before they barge in with the prayers or whatever. In this respect those of us that hold positions in churches always know that however comfortable and happy we are in our current position every interegnum brings a period of doubt and uncertainty, and every decent choir and musical tradition that has perhaps taken many years, and a great deal of effort to build up, can be destroyed in no time at all. Whilst we remain servants of the church, its clear, and obvious to all but the very foolish, that for most of us its a labour of love and we have to believe in what we're being asked to do otherwise the whole thing becomes a waste of time.

I lived in Bishops Stortford for a couple of years just over 20 years ago and was able, easily, to attend a number of services at both Johns and Kings. I always thought the kings organ sounded absolutely superb although entry to the chapel for evensong reminded me somewhat of when the doors opened at rummage sales in my rural 60's childhood. Personnally I consider your comments re. Belgium to be regretable, and hope you were perhaps making a joke which I have clearly failed to see.

I watched the "service" on BBC2 yesterday evening, something I have rarely done in previous years. I thought the organ came over superbly well but would agree with comments re. tempo in the congregational carols. I thought some of the other carols were taken too fast too. Whilst on the whole I enjoyed the singing, and was pleased to see so many carols by distinguished former masters of music were featured, what struck me more than anything was how artificial the whole thing was. I really can't imagine such an event as a successful liturgical experience when its so clearly staged. The cameras must have been incredibly intrusive to get so many close ups of the boys.

I certainly can't talk whilst playing Messaen (in the same way that I can't talk whilst piloting my private jet or whilst servicing my 500 concubines).

We had a top-of the-range 3-manual viscount on hire at my previous church 4 years ago while the HNB pipe organ was being renovated. My opinions of this instrument (baring in mind that I'm not one of the out-and-out toaster haters, now playing a new 3-manual Wyvern in my present post) are not fit to print.

What amuses me is the way that the organ sound eminating from even the smallest village church is always that of a highly competant player on a cathedral quality instrument. Usually a sound rich with added mixtures, and possibly even a continental sound if the background music is baroque. Its just amazing that you never hear anyone struggling through one of the eight short preludes on an ailing squeeze box with nothing above 4'