nfortin

I really didn't want to stir this up again. My point was attempting to defend Hereford from the charge of being bland - I would prefer to use the adjective subtle. I wouldn't call Gloucester subtle, I consider it to be aggressive. I fully understand that many organists like aggressive organs, I just happen to prefer subtle ones.

I must say that that was not my experience. I think the reputable UK manufacturers, and their sales staff, will readily admit that there is no substitute for a good pipe organ. They will, of course, try to persuade you that their product is better than their competitors, but thats only to be expected.

Oh dear, I thought I'd been quite restrained (for me on that particular subject). Perhaps we all push our own prejudices a little.... For the record, once again, I'm happy to admit that the Gloucester instrument plays some of the organ repertoire very well. It is particularly effective in late 20thC French repertoire - although it is doubtful that this was what its designers intended. In the context of my previous posting above my point is that I find the Hereford organ to be a superb instrument for the accompaniment of choral evensong, much better for this purpose than Gloucester. Were I in a position to live and work with either of these two instruments on a daily basis for me it would be an easy choice, and something of a love affair, in favour of Hereford. I'm quite happy to acknowledge and accept that for others the choice would go in the opposite direction.

My church choir sang evensong at Hereford this last Saturday. I love the place, its a fabulous organ in a fabulous accoustic. A perfect day out. I don't think the latest rebuild has made any tonal changes. There are a few reliability problems - my organist on Saturday was greeted with a list of stops to avoid. The mixture added to the great by H&H in the previous rebuild does not fully blend, but H&H are by no means unique in this respect. With deferrence to our hosts I believe the same criticism applies at Bristol. I don't think its at all fair to describe this instrument as "fat". Like many Fr. Willis organs its really very bright. I would say its biggest weakness is that the swell organ is actually to "thin", it doesn't pack the punch that we would expect from a Willis swell. The organ does suffer from a rather buried position, this means that the organist at the console hears far more organ than a listener in the nave. We did "Murrill in E" on Saturday complete with the usual (unmarked) fanfares on the tuba. I know there are many non-admirers of tubas on these boards but this stop could not possibly be described as "fat". A brighter sound would be hard to imagine. I think there is also a question of what you mean by "bland". If you mean a seemingly endless variety of beautiful soft colours, absolutely perfect for the pre-service improvisation and for accompanying the psalms then, yes, it is bland. If you mean it doesn't shout your head off like, for example, Bath Abbey then again guilty as charged. If you prefer the quality of the attack on each sound to dominate the quality of the sustained tone then a short trip down the road to Gloucester is the obvious remedy. Nuff said

All sing "Dear Lord and Father of mankind" (last verse only)

Surely organs are used in brothels everywhere (not speaking from any personal experience I hasten to add)

I't wouldn't be any use to me - I'd never be able to reach the music desk!

I think the organ of Chartres Cathedral is superbly effective, and wonderful to listen to, from its position in the South triforium. However, I'm aware from comments on previous discussions that this instrument is not held in univerally high regard.

Oh dear, we've got it in for the clergy haven't we. I particularly dislike the completely unnecessary announcement "Please stand for the entry of the bride" that so many of our clerical colleagues insist upon making. It shows a complete lack of feeling for the moment. My playing may not be wonderful, but I resent the implied suggestion that my Bridal March or Trumpet Voluntary are completely unrecognisable!

Thankyou David for your very interesting reply. I too agree that any attempt to program in delay would be doomed to failure. My experience is based upon the (late lamented) Worcester organ where if you stood, or sat for a a recital, in the crossing under the tower the quire and transept organs would be heard in perfect sync. When playing at the console (in the quire) one always heard the transept organ late. If the organ builder attempted to compensate in the quire by making the transept organ speak early this would only have made matters worse in the nave. If the entire organ is not in a single location, or in two directly opposite north/south locations, its difficult to see how this can ever be resolved.

Many of our cathedrals have large windows above the west door, its probably unacceptable to cover these with an organ even if it would be the best place for leading a large congregation in the nave. It you take the original question to mean "where is the best position to site a single organ" then the west end is a non-starter. In this context Westminster Cathedral is not a valid example as the main organ is all but unusable for accompanying the choir. I suspect that a pulpitum organ, assuming the screen is fairly central as at Gloucester and not too far east, is probably still the best position for a single instrument to have any hope of being effective in both quire and nave. This does bring its own problems of balance of sound with west-facing and east facing divisions. Whilst we organists may find the sight of the organs in Exeter and Norwich (for example) stunning its only fair to acknowledge that many other people take the view that they spoil the vista. Its most unlikely that a new organ screen would ever now be constructed in a cathedral where this is not a long-standing historic architectural feature.

Two real spine tinglers for me:- the first entry of the "Pickled Boys" singing Alleluia in Britten's St. Nicolas the last pages of Elgar's Apostles when the semi-chorus are singing the words of the ascended Christ ("I have done thy commandments" etc.) and the chorus ladies singing alleluias In church/cathedral repertoire:- "and the watchman strikes me with his staff" - Rejoice in the Lamb "and to be the glory of thy people Israel" - Stanford in A Nunc Dim Kyries (particularly those after the Christes) in Vierne Messe Solennelle Vaughan Williams Mass in G Minor On the question of organists, I was glad to see the earlier mention of Roy Massey, who I think is vastly underrated. David Briggs scores heavily on sheer panache.

I don't remember their being any acoustic to speak of, but its a long time ago. In my view, biased no doubt by the local rivalry between my own home town (Tetbury - very fine 3M Nicholson/Binns) and Malmesbury, it that what remains of the abbey just doesn't work as a coherant building and that the people of Malmesbury would have been far better served if the whole abbey had been destroyed and they could have started from scratch.

New - 1984 - gosh you're really moving with the times on this one! This was in my neck of the woods. I grew up in Tetbury, about 5 miles from Malmesbury and deputised at the Abbey on the old Willis organ a number of times in my teens. It was a very undestinguished instrument (as is the awful instrument in nearby Cirencester. I'm a great fan of Willis, but these were not good examples!). I've never played the new organ so can't comment on it from experience. However, I know the Abbey well, and its not a large building. All that remains of the ancient abbey is a fragment of the nave. Its a smaller space than either of the parish churches at nearby Tetbury or Cirencester. I can't imagine that a 32' could really be justified on a 2M scheme in this building. Dare I add that not all toaster designers go overboard on these things either. Even on a digital instrument every additional voice adds to the cost. My own church's new toaster (to my specification) includes a 32' flue - as the previous electronic instrument had done, which is certainly a luxury we would not expect had we been able to commission a new pipe organ. Yet I think a 32' reed would have been over the top. Equally the "Great" organ has a single reed at 8' when it would have been easy to suggest 16' and 4' chorus reeds too. The need to "go digital" does not necessarily represent a complete lack of restraint - although undoubtedly one will squeeze in a little more than would be accommodated in a pipe scheme.

I believe the convention is that the town is named "Bury St. Edmunds" whereas the cathedral is named "St. Edmundsbury". I've no idea why!

From the clues, I would say it has to be St. Edmundsbury. The existing Nicholson organ is large enough but instantly forgetable. I think I've told the story before, but I took my church choir, which at the time was St. Michael's Bishops Stortford, to St. Edmundsbury to sing Sunday services during the time that Paul Trepte was DOM. Paul was a former organ teacher of mine at Worcester and invited my wife and I back for a sherry after the morning communion service. I remember remarking to Paul that he must be fond of large Nicholsons having made the move directly from St. Mary's Warwick to Bury St. Edmonds. His reply, in forthright Yorkshireman fashion, would have to be regarded as unprintable.

Well as regular contributers will know I've been fairly outspoken on this topic, but I can say in all honesty that in adding the link to these video/audio samples I was in no way trying to stir things up. I loved the old Worcester console, which I think was as comfortable as any I've ever played, and thought others might enjoy seeing it again perhaps for the last time. Interesting too to see Adrian Lucus in close proximity to the pipe work, which I thought looked pretty serviceable to say the least. I agree with the sentiments of this particular message thread which are that, even for those of us that are not convinced that the old organ was irredeemable, we must accept that the former organ is no more and look forward to the future. I would agree with pcnd that, having played for evensong at Worcester not so very long before the BBC interview was recorded, the severe lack of wind audible at the end of the Alain did not match my own experience. I wouldn't go as far as to say that there were no wind leaks, the tutti was clearly struggling a little - but nothing like the extent recorded by the BBC. I would not wish to imply any deliberate intervention in quite the way that Sean is suggesting though. I believe our general impression, possibly ill-informed, is that very little of the pipework is to be re-used in the new/rebuilt instrument. It would be good to have a clear statement of this, and also interesting to know whether the residue is to be melted down or made available for re-use elsewhere. (I'd be happy to start a scheme to fund new soundboards etc. in my own church if they'd like to donate the pipework, although I am really still very pleased with and excited by our new toaster.)

Its many years since I played it, but I remember the 1949 H&H (9 stops) in St. Albans Church, Stroud, as a lovely little instrument. http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N00784

Meanwhile, for the nostalgic, some last glimses and sounds (notably ailing at the end of the Alain) of the old dear can be found on two video clips here:- http://www.cathedralmusiclinks.org.uk/5586...session*id*val* (See items dated 2nd May 2006 and 18th March 2006)

I agree the A major is a great setting. The opening of the Nunc is, IMHO, pretty demanding on the choir, but the moment when the solo trumpet sounds is surely one of the most thrilling in any setting of the N.D. Its difficult to think of many instances before or since of a solo reed being used so effectively in a setting of the evening canticles. Perhaps Howells St. Paul's and Jackson in G are rivals?

I'm down for Stanford in A in Bath Abbey in 2 weeks time, having not played them for perhaps 20 years. If I can get as far as the opening choir entry intact I shall feel I'm onto a winner. What strikes me coming back to this setting again, and also particularly strikes me about the G major setting too, is that, whilst its not easy (for a player of my ability) even to play all of notes accurately, these canticles are very demanding to register. Whilst I can see how this can be managed, whilst still requiring skill and concentration from the player, with a modern piston stepper/sequencer, it would be a quite extraordinary feat to meet the composers detailed requirements, without the aid of probably a couple of registrants, as laid down in the vocal score. Given the state of playing aids then, as opposed to now, Stanford's clear instructions must have represented a very considerable challenge!

A few fairly random thoughts:- In terms of the musical versality of an electronic organ, there is of course no reason why a single console could not house both a modern digital "classsical" organ and other electronics more suited to fitting in with a "music group". If I understand the technology properly (which is doubtful!) full MIDI provision would make this unncessary, or already available, depending upon how you want to look at it. I guess the same would apply to a pipe organ with an electric action, it could have MIDI or other electronics to provide a different range of sounds on different occasions. Whether this would be in any way desirable is, of course, a different issue, I'm just discussing the technical possibilities. On the issue of whether the entire sound & lighting system of the church could or should be controlled from the organ console I would agree with other respondents that the organist, particularly if already simultaneously directing the choir from the console, has enough to do. However, where my experience slightly differs, there are certainly occasions in my own church, the Advent and Christmas Carol Services come readily to mind, where the coordination of lighting changes in particular would be considerably better if the lighting circuits were controlled from the console....

Its certainly a very fine looking instrument. I have a couple of queries about the spec. and would be interested in other people's views:- The 7-stop great is very compact. Personally I'd prefer a 4' flute before the manual double, but I dare say I will be in a minority on this one! The Gemshorn 2' on the choir seems to sit incongrously in the middle of what would otherwise be a cornet séparée, I'd have preferred a flute (but then we're back into the discussion about how to bridge the gap between the principal and the mixture)

My concern was not so altuistic, ie. not so much worrying about the little dears damaging their voices as worrying that it makes my life difficult to instill one method of singing if their being asked to do completely opposite things at school. I took the example of high notes, where I've come across many instances of children being instructed to put their heads up for high notes when, as far as I'm concerned, they should be taught to look down slightly for the high notes. Another frequent problem is with children being encouraged to sing with "Letterbox Mouths", when I would want to train for open mouth shapes and open throats.

The late lamented had the typical H&H "Pedal on Swell Pistons" coupler. For choral accompaniment this was far more useful than "Great & Pedal Pistons Combined" because one would rarely get above Great 2, and yet the difference in volume between Swell 1 and Swell 6 (max on this organ) was tremendous. Hence without the "Pedal on Swell Pistons" coupler it would be difficult to adjust the pedal volume appropriately.