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Well I'm sorry to take the opposing view, but as far as I'm concerned if a Gemshorn appears in an otherwise English organ specification it is effectively a word which although of foreign origin has now been incorporated into the english language and may therefore have an adopted english pronunciation - in this case 'Jemshorn'. If we were to go around attempting to give all words of non-english origin their original pronuciation our conversation would turn into something out of 'Allo allo'. If we're prepared to call the capital of Austria "Vienna" this is a minor indescretion by comparison.

Sorry Paul, I agree with you on most points, but this is too sweeping a generalisation. I played for a concert a week or so ago at a village church near Pershore where the best thing you could do with the (pipe) organ would be to burn it. There are, I feel, a great many village churches with instruments that can at best be called ordinary, and whose music could be transformed by replacement of a very poor pipe instrument with a top quality digital one. Needless to say, I don't include Tewkesbury Abbey in this category.

The case of the Milton Organ is some distance above ground level, although not on a screen as such. However perhaps less than half of the organ is actually in the case, with, I believe, the solo, choir, and much of the pedal organs closer to ground level. I would think it unlikely that any of the pipe work would be at risk, although there could be damage to low level infrastructure such as windchests, electrics and possibly pedal sound chests.

According to the BBC Radio Gloucestershire website:- "Residents of Tewkesbury have been cut off - roads in and out of the town are impassable and water and sewage have begun seeping into 12th century Tewkesbury Abbey."

I had a wedding last week where the guests were all very quiet and well behaved before the service, sang loudly and well during the hymns, and were again quiet and attentive during the signing of the registers. Can't remember the last time that happened. Normal service had been resumed by this weekend unfortunately.

I'd love to use Sibelius but its just too expensive. Unless you're a serious composer doing a lot of type-setting, or just seriously rich, I don't see how the cost can be justified. It strikes me that its a rip-off. I use a little known program - Capella - that's more than adequate for my needs. The latest version has xml import/export which allows data to be shared with Sibelius which is useful for my daughter who has to use Sibelius for her A-level work at school. The student version of Sibelius, still seriously expensive, is useless for A-level as its too cut down, whereas she can do everything she needs in Capella.

I didn't hear the broadcast in question and I don't know the Trinity College organ, nevertheless I'm surprised by the assertion that the Gloucester Cathedral organ, in its post HNB form, might be considered ideal for Howells. I'm very aware that some correspondents will be frustrated that I should raise this issue, but would imagine that Howells would have sided with Sumsion on the subject of the HNB/Downes rebuild, and it is surely beyond any question the post-HNB sound was not in any way close to what Howells had in mind for the Gloucester service.

I took my daughter to an open day at Bristol University a week or so ago (and yes that makes me feel very old!) during which time we attended a talk in the main hall of the stunning Wills building. I was interested to see the 4 manual organ console clearly visible at the back of the stage, with pipework visible through the screens around the back of the stage. NPOR seems to suggest a mixed and confusing history for this instrument. Has anyone played or heard it - whats it like?

The swell organ (but not the choir and great) in Tetbury Parish Church was added by Binns and has a stop labelled "Dulciana Mixture III". It may be gentler than some mixtures but its a very serviceable and musical swell mixture. I believe Paul's assertion about pitches is not true with regards to this example however. I wouldn't want to stake my life on it, but I think its something like a 15-19-22.

Thanks for that, I've been waiting with interest for some time for details of the plans for Cirencester. The organ, in its present form, is a real damp squib, so H&H will have their work cut out to make a good instrument out of it. It really is an extraordinary proposal, bucking the trend in this day and age, to be extending an organ to this extent. Two new 32's for example, and so many other new ranks. I very much hope that the new chamade will be entirely new as the existing royal trumpet is, to my ears, one of the least musical stops I've ever encountered.

I don't see how its possible to make many suggestions without some indication of its intended purpose. You've said it will be installed in a concert hall, it strikes me as being a very limited specification for playing any repertoire at all, so if they're wanting a recital instrument I would have thought a historical restoration would not be adequate. If its only needed to accompany the odd hymn on graduation day, or to fill in the texture in the Elgar choral works, you might get away with it. Sorry, but my advice would be buy a different organ.

In my previous job I had a colleague named Mike Hunt - he preferred to be called Michael. But, on the original subject, three is a severe limitation, how about:- - Westminster Cathedral - Notre Dame - Weingarten

When I started in my previous church position, at St. Peter's Leckhampton, there was a bees nest inside the organ. Although it didn't cause too many problems I had to get used to the fact that from time to time bees would fly out of the opening around the swell pedal & buzz around my legs for a while. I remember ringing Nicholsons (who maintain the organ) on one occasion, and when I gave the name of the church the secretary said "Ah yes, the church with the bees". Eventually an expert was brought in to remove the nest.

It is easy to get into the mindset that the RSCM is drifting down the happy-clappy stream, and, indeed, the RSCM quarterly magazine does little to discourage this view. However they do still promote activities which aspire to excellance, and the regional RSCM Cathedral Singers offer encouragement and opportunities to members of "traditional" choirs. The majority of RSCM events that grass-roots members see are promoted by their area committee, these are volunteers doing there best to fulfil local needs, and I can assure you its hard work and often unrewarding. If you don't feel the right events are being organised in your area then at the very least contact a member of your local committee, or, preferably, don't just sit there moaning about it, join the local committee and make a postive contribution.

I quite appreciate the reasons to be careful about comments that could lead to litigation, although Paul did (if my memory is correct) state that he felt certain of his facts, but it is certainly the case that some parishes seem to get through DoM's at a rate of knots. Either they're very unlucky or else, as is more likely, there' something in their set up that makes it difficult for a DoM to feel happy and appreciated in their post. I suspect that's usually down to the incumbent, but not always so. I'm sure we all notice these things locally, and in my neck of the woods for example, three churches which should by their size and history be choice positions spring immediately to mind (two of which have featured in other recent threads), namely All Saints Cheltenham (4M Hill - "The Holst Church"), Cirencester PC, and Pershore Abbey. (Actually I fancy two of these, but being aware of their turn over its definitely like a turkey voting for Christmas.)

Makin and Allen both hire out instruments and have bases in the South of the country. My choral society hired a 3M Allen for a performance of Vierne & Saint-Saens double-organ masses in Tewkesbury Abbey a couple of seasons ago and, whilst Allen would not be my personal choice for a permanent installation, the instrument was more than adequate for the job, and was installed on site for the day with a very generous and comprehensive loudspeaker system.

I have been asked by Sheila Joynes to post this reply, the views and comments are entirely hers, but, I feel, provide an interesting insight into goings-on at Pershore Abbey... Imagine how you would feel if you read this about yourself. "Vox Humana" did then come to my defence, (almost) - saying the recording was clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It certainly wasn't - I took a friend to see the crocuses in the churchyard at Birlingham Church. We went into the church and found that the organ was unlocked, as it usually is. Having the resident organist's permission to play there whenever I wished, without music, or shoes, (nor even socks!) I played a few snippets. Inevitably the "can you do the Widor?" question then came up. Yes, I CAN play the Widor given a little rehearsal, an organ not as heavy as the Birlingham tracker, the music and organ shoes! Having said that, I don't consider myself an organist, despite gaining distinction at Grade 8, two years to the day from my first lesson. I came to the instrument in my mid 30s, having learned because I needed to because organists are in such short supply. I went to Trevor Tipple because I was told he loved Bach and loved organs and I wasn't keen on either! I then had lessons with Ray Johnson, Assistant to Donald Hunt at Worcester Cathedral at the time. I am a cellist, first and foremost, and have been principal cellist of Chandos Symphony Orchestra for nearly 20 years. I also play double bass and piano and make my living as a teacher of those instruments. Also mentioned in the thread was the organ at Pershore Abbey. I was Assistant Organist there from 1994 until being appointed as Director of Music there in February 2003 (holding the post until I retired in August 2004 on health grounds). I would not apply for the job called "Organist" because I didn't feel I was enough of an organist to warrant that title. I took on the post as Director of Music and loved it, conducting the choir, singing soprano and filling in on the organ when the organist, Mike Pegg wasn't playing. Most of the music on my website (including the Karg-Elert and the Mozart) was recorded on a mini disk player. We were given £5 at the Abbey and asked to turn it into as much as we could - the parable of the Talents. I bought a few tapes (before the days of recording your own CDs easily), recorded myself playing organ, piano, violin, flute, harp and singing and sold those under the title "The Talents of Sheila Joynes", then bought more tapes with the profits. I ended up making £147 for the Abbey. The other question mentioned in the thread was about the Pershore Abbey organ. I have to be careful what I say here as I am one of the mentioned recent ex-Directors of Music. I was followed by David Barclay, an energetic and highly talented man (though not an organist AT ALL). He resigned in December 2006. In recent months I believe the music at the Abbey has been in the hands of the vicar's 17 year-old son, though Mike Pegg is still the organist. Back in January 2004, I was one of a party from the Abbey who went to Tronau in Sweden to see the new hybrid digital/pipe organ. (I can almost hear the gasps from the purists at the very mention of this.) The vicar, who professes to be an organist and a pupil of Virgil Fox, led the party and we were met in Sweden by Carlo Curly and Peter Collins. All of us in the Abbey party were very impressed by the organ. (More gasps) I am not a purist, I am not an organ expert - but it sounded damn fine to me! Plans were drawn up for building one for Pershore and placing it above the West door. I was not consulted about these plans although I was still Director of Music. The faculty which allowed the removal of the Walker, stipulated that it must be replaced with a pipe organ "within 10 years". (This expired at the end of March 2007.) As far as the public was aware this scheme was going ahead. A public meeting was arranged to present the plans. At the start of this, the vicar announced that part of Abbey was falling down and funds would be needed for repairs. He had changed his mind about the hybrid organ and wanted a totally digital one. I found it very difficult to do so but I made my views clear that a building such as the Abbey deserves a decent organ and that the Abbey would be a laughing stock if it went down that route especially as there is already a digital one in place. As far as I know, the situation remains the same. I believe extra time was granted to fulfil the requirements of the faculty but, as I was told very clearly that I was not welcome in the Abbey, any more I could add would be hearsay. Finally, I'd like to add this. If you want confirmation of my abilities as an all-round musician, (other than my 7 grade 8s with distinction) you might ask John Wilderspin, Roger Gay or Donald Hunt. Not that I feel I have to justify myself - but I do want the opportunity to say particularly to Lee Blick; be very careful what you say about people on the Internet because it will almost certainly get back to them –try Googling my name or the search "who teaches music theory". Such is my presence on the Internet, Google now informs me when it notices my name being mentioned! Even if you didn't like my performance, Mr Blick, did you have to get so personal as to comment on my size? How dare you! I bet your legs are long enough to reach the pedals without falling off the organ stool, too! So, gentlemen, ("gentlemen" being a presumption from the original post) you have now heard it from "Big Ma'am" herself. I would have thought you would wish to encourage new blood, even female, into the organ world. God knows - and I mean that - there are few enough people who can even play a hymn - with or without the pedals, which is exactly why I started learning. You may be glad to know that I don't play then organ anywhere any more and that one consequence of having read your conversation is, that I may never have the confidence to do so again - thanks a lot!!! Sheila Joynes.

I don't have first hand of all of these instruments, but I know Gloucester very well. I'm aware that many think highly of it, and many readers of this board will know that I disagree, but I would not think that even its most ardent admirer could describe it as "eclectic". I wouldn't have thought, for all its qualities, that this was the word that sprung most readily to mind with respect to New College either - or that this was what its designers intended.

Well the three great Elgar oratorios certainly have a large enough fan base in this country, with The Dream of Gerontius in pole position in the popularity stakes (although my personal opinion is that The Apostles is the pick of the bunch). If The Dream does not enjoy wider popularity abroad I personally don't think thats the fault of the music. The operas of Britten and Tippett are, I believe, performed and admired throughout the world and can be seen as a core part of the 20th century repertoire. The marketing can't have been too bad. Then of course if you're prepared to cross boundaries, the musicals of Andrew Lloyd Webber are certainly well travelled and well marketed. I saw Phantom in London for the first time last year, and whilst I wouldn't put the music in the Verdi & Puccini bracket, the show just blew me away. Fantastic!

It was a bit of an accident that both flutes on the choir and labelled "Chimney Flute", but the two flutes that we have got work beautifully together, and indeed the whole choir organ with its Cornet Separee is a joy. Wyvern tend to put several samples on the sound cards for each physical stop control so that you can choose the one you really like when the organ is voiced in the church. This means that in practice you may well end up using a sample that isn't an exact match for the name on the stop knob. In our case, for example, I believe the sample which I finally chose for the "Fanfare Trumpet" is in reality a tuba. The manual touch I also find very good, its quite firm and not at all spongy. At my previous church we had a brand new 3-decker Viscount on hire when our (3M HNB) pipe organ was restored in 2000. My views on this instrument might well be actionable were I to commit them to print, and the same line of reasoning prevents me from expressing my opinion of the Eminent instrument I tried when researching at Charlton Kings.

I did a lot of research, including visits to hear recent installations, before recommending my church (St. Mary's, Charlton Kings) to commission a custom built instrument from Wyvern Organs. Having approached Wyvern early on, Phoenix would not counter-quote as they have an agreement not to bid against each other (Wyvern are effectively selling the Phoenix system under license.) Now these things are very subjective, but to my ears the Wyvern/Phoenix sound is way above all of the competion with the possible exception of Copeman-Hart. However, Copeman-Hart, in our experience anyway, will come in at about double the price. Personnally my view is that Phoenix are the best and most exciting producers of digital organ sound in the world at the moment, but they are not yet able to point to the proven history and customer base that can reassure a wavering PCC. I would discount all other "Builders", unless "Cheap and cheerful" is the only consideration. Rodgers, in my opinion, offer a very good product if you're happy to go with American tastes and an off-the-peg solution. Don't expect much in the way of customisation, forget all hope of a clarinet on a 3M instrument, and expect to pay more than the price of a better Phoenix/Wyvern of similar specification. I'm very happy to demonstrate, and give unrestricted access to, our superb custom Wyvern instrument (installed spring 2006) to anyone interested.

If you judge The Crucifixion as purely a concert piece it will always be found lacking. If you treat it as a liturgical and congregational work, with sympathetic soloists and choir, it can be both moving and rewarding. As with most Stainer, you have to accept a few over saccharin moments, but dare I suggest that there are highly successful composers and arrangers currently active who are not above the same criticism.

We use this at Charlton Kings. Our hymn book is Common Praise whith I guess has the AMR words. We manage to adapt & make the words fit. Incidentally I also have the blue RSCM last verse accompaniments book, an old and valued friend! I particularly like the arrangement for St. Clement.

Dare I suggest that these seem to be a lot of snide comments from people who have achieved significantly less. For what its worth, probably not a lot, "Lift up your heads" is probably the most popular piece in our repertoire with my junior choristers.

That's very interesting because I found the softer 32' flue to be very gentle and ideal for the odd verse in the psalms. Perhaps its been turned down a bit.