nfortin

I occassionally leave the third out of the final chord altogether (almost always in conjucntion with a tune in a minor key) to leave a certain abiguity...

I don't think I would feel able to stay in post if the incumbent imposed a change of hymn book without involving me in any consultation. AMNS was a strange collection. Many parishes previously had AMR together with either or both of the hundred hymns for today supplements. This combination provided a pretty decent selection but the man in the pew didn't like having to deal with two or three different hymn books. AMNS attempted to get round this but was always a flawed concept as many worthwhile hymns from AMR were ditched in order to accommodate all 200 HFT even though in practice many of these had never found their way into regular use (and were never likely to do so). NEH I could never see the point of. It really has so little recent hymnody in it. It seems a token hymn book so that EH devotees can show that they've moved on without really having done so. To my mind Common Praise offers the best all round collection of mainly traditional hymns but with a fair selection of more recent hymns added too.

Doesn't everyone wear their watch on the left? Have I been committing some unkown social gaff all these years? You've got me quite worried now! I've seen a number of choir's with cassock-albs that are not unlike hoodies really.

A number of us put forward similar arguments at length last year, but this serves no useful purpose. Its time to move on and accept, with thanks, Adrian Lucas' willingness to provide us with progress reports on the new instrument. I think you'll find that the instrument in its final form had little in common with that known to Elgar.

Its not a service that has stuck in my memory, and I must say that I've found the accompaniment alone to be rather dull and uninspiring to learn (though, thankfully, very straightforward), so I look forward to hearing it with the choir (RSCM Cathedral Singers in Tewkesbury Abbey) tomorrow. Anyway, thats 2-0 in favour of A flat 7th for the big chord which certainly sounds better than whats printed. (Actually I find it almost impossible to play the chord with both C flat and C natural as printed, something in my brain or fingers rebels against it. Change it to either A flat minor 7th or A flat major 7th and it becomes easy)

Adrian, can I just say that I think its marvellous that a person of your stature takes the time to reply, and so swiftly, to queries of this nature. Particularly so when the initial query came from someone who, it is fair to say, has not been your stongest supporter on these message boards (ie. me). Many thanks Neil

I've just been working up the accompaniment to Howells G Major mag & nunc, which I've not played before. The copy I have, and I guess there's only one edition, is a Stainer & Bell. I'm wondering whether the "Big" chord that comes just before "world without end" on page 15 of my copy is a misprint. This is the chord with the E flat in the Bass, as printed there is a C flat in the left hand and a C natural in the right hand. To my ears this sounds horrible! Does anyone know if its a misprint?

That nicely sums up the pros and cons of Rodgers' toasters. You are getting an uncompromisingly american instrument. When we were choosing for my own church a couple of years ago we took the view that we didn't want to have stops that would sing 'ooh' and sing 'Amen', but we did want a clarinet.

Both Sean and I must have been amongst the last visiting organists to have had the pleasure of playing on the old Worcester instrument, and we both found its faults to be exaggerated, Forgive me for saying that I find the comments re. those who play the instument for 40 weeks of the year to be somewhat patronising. The question underlying this debate is not whether the old organ was unreliable, but whether it was worth restoring. Those of us that believe the old organ worthy of restoration clearly should by now have moved on and be sincerely hoping for great things in the future. Whether we believe Worcester have chosen their new organ builders on the basis of quality or of cost is, of course, an entirely different matter.,

I was a student in Worcester from 1976 - 1980 and remember attending an event in the restaurant to mark some degree of restoration or refurbishment of the instrument. There was a celebrity reopening which may when have been Nigel Ogden but I can't honestly remember. It seems sad that the instrument was moved so soon after this event and even sadder that its now in Australia.

I agree with the (so far) general view that it shouldn't matter what type of console you learn on, providing its reliable and fit for purpose. If you achieve even modest success as an organist you will find yourself playing a variety of instruments of many differing layouts and designs - and you have to be able to adjust quickly and get on with the job. I learnt on a 3m instrument with no thumb pistons and just 3 old-style composition pedals to each of swell and great. Hand registration was vital. I would suggest that its no disadvantage to learn on such an instrument. Its probably easier to adapt to using thumb pistons, toes pistons, steppers etc. later on that it is to manage without them if you become to dependant upon them. I remember the late John Sanders coming to play for the opening service and recital when this organ was restored c1976 - he was completely flumuxed by the lack of pistons and couldn't cope at all well. By contrast Roy Massey came and gave a recital not too long afterwards and seemed completely at home with it from start to finish.

Your npor link is correct. The two-manual nave organ was, in itself, quite a weedy affair. It was mounted on two separate mobile platforms (swell & great) with the console on a third mobile platform, so that the whole thing could be wheeled down to the west end when the seating in the cathedral was reversed for major concerts. How useful this really was, other than for continuo, is debatable as this instrument had no chance of making an audible contribution with a symphony orchestra and large chorus in competition. When the organ was in its usual position, just to the west of the central crossing, the console also had stop tabs to operate the quire organ's "solo" division, plus a small number of pedal stops, sited within the huge case in the south transept. As discussed before, the Worcester "solo" was in reallity an early attempt at a nave great, consisting of very full diapasons at 8', 4', 2', mixture, plus two powerful trumpets at 16' and 8'. This did not however mean that the quire organ was lacking in solo voices. The trumpet 8' on the solo could be used in voluntaries but was not very useful for service work as the distance from the quire reduced its impact and also introduced a time lag in the sound. However the great posaune (and the tromba that it replaced) could be used to wonderful effect with the "Great reeds on solo" transfer. The choir organ provided a lovely enclosed clarinet and also some keen strings for contrast with the more gentle strings on the swell. There was also a fat Hohl flute on the great.

There used to be a restaurant in Worcester (in The Tything to be more precise for locals) that had a cinema organ installed in an upstairs room, with grills (no pun intended) in the floor/ceiling to allow the sound into the main room downstairs. I've no idea whether its still there.

I too would like to thank Adrian Lucas for the wonderful photos and for being prepared to start this thread providing (hopefully) progress reports on the Worcester project despite the criticism it has received, from myself amongst others, on these message boards. Those of us that were not fully convinced the old organ was irredeemable have had our say, at some length, and must now move on. That is not to say that the photos do not inspire some sadness, and many happy memories. I too lament the passing of the old console, which I think was probably the most comfortable I've ever played - although I love the Willis III console at Hereford, even if the massed ranks of rocker-tab couplers are a daunting prospect to the occasional visitor.

I just confess that I have a lot of sympathy with this view point, although, thankfully, fees are correctly handled so that the need for physical involvement with the best man is minimized. Its a fact of life that many older parish churches are located just over the road from the local hostelry and many of the wedding guests arrive in the former directly on exit from the latter. As Ronald has implied, behavioural standards have been in steady decline in recent years and the period before the service can be something of a trial. Increasingly the bad behaviour is now likely to resume during the signing of the registers. Its a shame. I'm sure we all still get the odd couple (perhaps I should say "occasional couple") that you can talk to sensibly about hymn and incidental music choices, where the bride turns up on time and the relatives show a reasonable level of decorum, and its still a pleasure to contribute to their "happy day". But in my experience, the vast majority now think that they are hiring the church for the occasion, and that, as they're paying, they can behave as they see fit and have whatever they want. And, by the way, I still think I should be fully entitled either to lock up the organ and go home if the bride hasn't processed in within 5 minutes of the scheduled start time, or to require a hefty deposit (at least the equal again of the basic fee) to be made in advance to be paid to me in these circumstances.

I certainly recommend this CD - which I first mentioned on this thread - and which has been widely discussed. The recording of "Tus es patra" is just phenomenal - certainly on the slow side - but what sounds! When the pedal reeds and kitchen sink come in for the final bars its just fantastic. Turn the volume up and b*****r the neighbours. The Notre Dame - Cochereau recording I only have on cassette - does anyone know if its currently available on CD, it would be good to upgrade. Straying even further off subject, I also have a treasured CD, FYCD 019, entitled "Les Offices du Dimanche a Notre-Dame de Paris" consisting of organ improvisations (Cochereau), incantations and choral items recorded live during Sunday offices. I think its just amazing. Does anyone else have this?

I've done 'Whiter shade of pale' and 'Bridge over troubled water' in the past, though not recently, and have had couples exit to the Liberty Bell on several occasions.

I've never been able to understand why so many people believe this is a hymn all about how perfect and beautiful our country is, its always seemed to mean quite the opposite to me. It is frequently requested for weddings and I too fail to see how it can be regarded as appropriate. We get a fair few 'Dear Lord and Father's, which never fails to amuse me. The last verse is so unfortunate for a wedding ("let sense be dumb, let flesh retire, speak through the earthquake....". Also get a fair number of requests for 'Lord of the dance', these must be the S&M brigade I guess.

In theory I draw up a monthly music list, including all hymns & psalms, and present it to the vicar for review. In practice I'm afraid to say that its usually too last minute for their to be much prospect of review but the vicar places great trust in my judgement and there's not usually an issue. As Frank suggests, its more or less essential to look up the readings set in the lectionary and try to find hymns that are relevant. The RSCM 'Sunday by Sunday' booklet is a great help and shortcut with respect to the parish eucharist, but doesn't cover evensong or any other services. I do have fairly regular discussion meetings with the vicar, but choice of music is not normally one of the topics that gets discussed. This is not to say that he might not suggest an anthem that he'd like us to add to our repertoire - but he'd never insist if his suggestion was either not to my taste or if I thought it too difficult or too 'big' for us.

I love it too, but why not go for the real McCoy in terms of recordings? I have two "live" recodings, one in Notre Dame with Pierre Cochereau at the Grande Orgue, which is exciting and spectacular but not always together, and the other a much slower, but always atmospheric, recording from Sacre Coeur.

Very smart website http://www.taylorandboody.com/home.htm proves that not all American organs are 300 stop monstrosities.

I'm surprised at the level of vitriol in this thread. I personally don't think the sound sample is the most musical singing for some of the reasons outlined by other correspondents. To be specific I would certainly prefer the musical stress to be on the first and third beats of the bar, and I really think the gap before the word 'morning' is diabolical. Not only does it sound rediculously contrived, but it also ensures that the word 'morning' comes in with a most unmusical thump to my ears. I'm sure there are many different theories about how to, or whether to, or which, vowel sounds should be modified during singing. I can't entirely go along with the idea that singing is a purely natural exercise and therefore just do what comes naturally. This brings to mind to old joke about the vicar and the gardener...with the punch line "ah but you should have seen what it were like when ee ad it all to imself."

Surely "Ave Verum Corpus", whilst making reference to being "born of the Virgin Mary", is entirely about the Body (and passion) of Christ and would be considered a very fitting communion text in both Anglican and RC circles. The three settings which I guess are in most common UK use - Byrd, Mozart and Elgar - all have catholic composers.

I've tried playing the tune over a few times or improvising on it (or a mixture of both) before the service, but in reality too many people are nattering noisily and no-one ever takes any notice of what I'm playing before the service ! I've also tried doing a short teach-in on the new tune before the service starts but this is not very popular with the congregation, possibly because it makes them feel self-concious, or more probably because it interferes too much with the aforesaid nattering. I'm sure that if we advertised a special new-hymn learning session once a year no-one would bother to turn up. (Sorry if I'm sounding somewhat defeatist here.) The bottom line is that my congregation don't like having any new hymns. I've tried pointing out that every hymn that they now know was new to them at some time, and that every well known "standard" hymn was once a newly written/composed hymn that doubtless people of the time complained about. Goodness only knows how they ever managed to pick up "All my hope on God is founded", and "Living Lord" for example - I suppose they were all 40 years younger at the time.

I wonder if anyone has a really successful method for introducing new/unknown hymns to a congregation. I find this to be very problematic. I fully understand that the congregation feel frustrated if there is a hymn that they don't know, but there has to be the possibility of introducing new hymns to them. A case in point arose yesterday when I picked as the final hymn at the 10:00am eucharist "From glory to glory advancing" to the tune (whose name escapes me) by Holst. It seemed to me to fit yesterday's transfiguration readings really well. I've always thought this to be a very strong and uplifiting hymn, but it was new to my congregation and went like a lead balloon. At least with this particular hymn there is the possibility of using it again a few times to try to get it into peoples' memories, but with other hymns this is not always the case.