Guest Psalm 78 v.67 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Not the most consequential topic ever, but I have never been sure as to what is the correct pronunciation of certain stop names. A couple of examples below. Posaune - Variants of pronunciation I have heard include Po sawn, Po-sanne, Per-sanne and Person Hautbois - both in French (Pierre?) and Anglicised form - variants i have heard here include Hort-boys and Ho-boys... Others may spring to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 The one that jets my joat is "Jems horn" - or, even worse, "Jem shorn". I recently heard the former from someone who really ought to know better. So much so, in fact, that I am left wondering whether in fact he does know better and there is some good reason for this pronunciation that escapes me. For those who don't know it's a German word meaning "goat horn". The "horn" bit is pronounced as in English and the "G" is hard (as in "goat"). Posaune. A German word, so surely the German pronunciation must obtain - the "au" being more or less "ow" as in "town" and the final "e" sounded. Hautbois. Never quite sure what to do to this one. Given the French spelling I suppose the French pronunciation should obtain, though I suppose you could get away with the old English "oat-boy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 The one that jets my joat is "Jems horn" - or, even worse, "Jem shorn". I recently heard the former from someone who really ought to know better. So much so, in fact, that I am left wondering whether in fact he does know better and there is some good reason for this pronunciation that escapes me. For those who don't know it's a German word meaning "goat horn". The "horn" bit is pronounced as in English and the "G" is hard (as in "goat"). Posaune. A German word, so surely the German pronunciation must obtain - the "au" being more or less "ow" as in "town" and the final "e" sounded. Hautbois. Never quite sure what to do to this one. Given the French spelling I suppose the French pronunciation should obtain, though I suppose you could get away with the old English "oat-boy". Agree on the first two. I tend to call an Hautbois an Oboe and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Another perennial favourite is "walled flute" for Wald Flute. Given that this form of the name is a macaronic one could argue that it doesn't matter, but it still grates. I find German umlauts impossible to render in English, but the nearest I can get to Wald Flöte is "Vallt Flurteh" - but I'm sure someone can make a better stab at it than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Well let's try.... Posaune: "Poz-haun' ", the "au" as in french "EAU" (water), the final "N" pronounced Hautbois: Again, you shoud pronounce the first part, "Hau", exactly like the french "EAU"; like the "OH" in "Oh harken Thou", a good comparison. "bois": B-, then "HO" exactly like in WHO", then an open "A", like in "THAT". So OH-BHO-A (the A in THAT) Gemshorn I spell "Gems-horn", the "horn" like in english with a sharper "R", "Gems" simply like "Game"+ s, also "GAME-S-HORRN" WALDFLÖTE= Valt-fleuth. The Umlaut (¨) makes a "eu" of the "o". The "eu" to be pronounced like in french, for example like the " EUC" in "Saint Brieuc" (The "C" isn't pronounced for this town) Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Fowler Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Well let's try.... Posaune: "Poz-haun' ", the "au" as in french "EAU" (water), the final "N" pronounced When an apprentice I had to go with Mark Fairhead to help him do regulation on Selby Abbey. Mark delighted in calling the Posaune a P'saune, making a meal of the P's, shouting this to me from the console at every oppertunity when there were visitors in the Abbbey! FF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kropf Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Gemshorn I spell "Gems-horn", the "horn" like in english with a sharper "R", "Gems" simply like "Game"+ s, also "GAME-S-HORRN" Well, it depends...!! The roll factor of the R has significant meaning for tracing the home region of the speaker! So, a roll factor of the English "horn" would serve well for an educated North German like Harald Vogel! More simple people, perhaps with origins in Plattdeutsch, an early form of German still in use, would roll the R quite much. But if it is an educated Person with much rolling R, the speaker might originate from North Bavaria. With much guttural R it could be somebody from the Wurttemberg Region or from Thuringia.... But we may all agree on a hard G resulting in "Gaemshorn" ("game" is to much diphtonge IMHO) Nuff with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Robinson Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 I agree with all of yours, Vox Humana. I remember whilst introducing my class to the organ at the local church (sadly I cannot find time for this any more, as it is not in my official curriculum) the vicar, who had come in to supervise - I don't think I was fully trusted - pronounced it as 'Jemshorn'. I felt certain he was wrong but, of course, I was too polite to say anything. Thanks for confirming my belief. Another one, by the organist of a large church near to my home, was Larigot pronounced 'Larizho' - the 'zh' being the French 'j' sound. Again, I was sure it should be a hard 'g' (and silent 't', of course) but, as a non-player, I deferred to his superior knowledge. Much later I asked a native French student, who was on foreign exchange at my school, and she confirmed my correct pronunciation. Personally, I feel that foreign names of organ stops should be pronounced as they would be in the language of origin, or as near as possible - I agree that umlauts are difficult for some. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 When an apprentice I had to go with Mark Fairhead to help him do regulation on Selby Abbey. Mark delighted in calling the Posaune a P'saune, making a meal of the P's, shouting this to me from the console at every oppertunity when there were visitors in the Abbbey! FF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Personally, I feel that foreign names of organ stops should be pronounced as they would be in the language of origin, or as near as possible - I agree that umlauts are difficult for some. Hear, hear. Unfortunately I'm fairly comprehensively ignorant of foreign languages. I think I know the answer to this, but could someone please confirm the correct pronunciation of the Spanish "Flautado" and "Bajoncillo"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWAnderson Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 What about Voix Celeste? I have always pronounced it as Vox, but is that right? JA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 It's French, so strictly speaking should be "Vwah sailest". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprondel Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Hear, hear. Unfortunately I'm fairly comprehensively ignorant of foreign languages. I think I know the answer to this, but could someone please confirm the correct pronunciation of the Spanish "Flautado" and "Bajoncillo"? Those are on the tough side. 1. Flow'tahdo, with a closed o as in "of" 2. Bakhon'thillyo, the kh pronounced as in "Khachaturyan" (that coughing noise), the th as in "therapy". Pierre: I don't know if it's usual in the Flemish language, but you seem to abandon the final "e" in pronouncing Posaune and Waldflöte. In German, we wouldn't. My transcription would be 1. Poh'sownah 2. 'Vallt Flurteh, as Vox has stated. Best, Friedrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 "with origins in Plattdeutsch" Like......Myself ! (Dat woer minge eigen Sprooch!!!) Between the dutch and the northern german languages, there is no border, but plenty of intermediar dialects, among which mine... Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfortin Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Well I'm sorry to take the opposing view, but as far as I'm concerned if a Gemshorn appears in an otherwise English organ specification it is effectively a word which although of foreign origin has now been incorporated into the english language and may therefore have an adopted english pronunciation - in this case 'Jemshorn'. If we were to go around attempting to give all words of non-english origin their original pronuciation our conversation would turn into something out of 'Allo allo'. If we're prepared to call the capital of Austria "Vienna" this is a minor indescretion by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Well I'm sorry to take the opposing view, but as far as I'm concerned if a Gemshorn appears in an otherwise English organ specification it is effectively a word which although of foreign origin has now been incorporated into the english language and may therefore have an adopted english pronunciation - in this case 'Jemshorn'. If we were to go around attempting to give all words of non-english origin their original pronuciation our conversation would turn into something out of 'Allo allo'. If we're prepared to call the capital of Austria "Vienna" this is a minor indescretion by comparison. Neil, would I tell you what the name "Washington" signifies, in french, if pronouced after the french manner, you would understand at once why I prefer by far to stick to the original names ! Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Robinson Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Well I'm sorry to take the opposing view, but as far as I'm concerned if a Gemshorn appears in an otherwise English organ specification it is effectively a word which although of foreign origin has now been incorporated into the english language and may therefore have an adopted english pronunciation - in this case 'Jemshorn'. If we were to go around attempting to give all words of non-english origin their original pronuciation our conversation would turn into something out of 'Allo allo'. If we're prepared to call the capital of Austria "Vienna" this is a minor indescretion by comparison. We shall have to agree to differ here, then. Whenever I hear someone say 'Jemshorn', it conjures up a mental image of a diamond-studded organ pipe. Personally, I can manage German and French names quite well (without sounding like the policeman from 'Allo Allo'), and Spanish and Italian to an extent. On the other hand, when faced with a Polish specification I am obliged to give up completely! Try these (from Oliwa): Flet poprzeczny 4' Regal skrzypcowy 4' (how anyone can pronounce a ten-letter word containing but one vowel is beyond me!) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Robinson Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Neil, would I tell you what the name "Washington" signifies, in french,if pronouced after the french manner, you would understand at once why I prefer by far to stick to the original names ! Pierre Go on, what does the word 'Washington' mean, when pronounced in French? I'm intrigued. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I wonder if anyone has come across an organ with Welsh stop names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I wonder if anyone has come across an organ with Welsh stop names? Interesting problem: how to compress king-size nameplates into an ordinary console.... Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lee Blick Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I wonder if anyone has come across an organ with Welsh stop names? No, but I know many organs with leeks in the them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newnham Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I wonder if anyone has come across an organ with Welsh stop names? Hi I've a vague recollection of reading about one, so maybe there was. There was certainly an organ built with Latin stop names - it's on NPOR but I can't remember where (which isn't much help among the 30,000 or so surveys on the server!) Every Blessing Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lee Blick Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Hi I've a vague recollection of reading about one, so maybe there was. There was certainly an organ built with Latin stop names - it's on NPOR but I can't remember where (which isn't much help among the 30,000 or so surveys on the server!) Every Blessing Tony I think the organ with the Latin stop names is mentioned in the book 'The Organ' by William Sumner, but I haven't got a copy to confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I think the organ with the Latin stop names is mentioned in the book 'The Organ' by William Sumner, but I haven't got a copy to confirm that. Are you thinking of St. John the Apostle, Torquay? http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N10596 The most recent survey suggests that the Latin stop names are no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Cymbelstern (s as in bus) or Zimbelstern (z as is buzz)? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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