2 & 4 Stop Teaser

[Guest Hector5]

Here's a headache for you - if you had to design a house organ with two and four stops respectively what would you come up with? We had had a glut of organs with 8/4 + 8/2 configurations and I'm considering either a 2 or 4 stop organ for home. My instinct is to have:

 

2 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn ( small-scale with independent bass - stopped)

 

Pedals

No stops coupled to manuals

 

Couplers

II/I - by shift coupler

II/P

I/P

 

4 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

4 Dulcet (Quasi principal)

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn

4 Open Flute

 

Pedal

16 II Pedal Pipes (transmssion of St. Diap + 5 1/2 Quint for bass 12 notes)

 

Couplers

Same

 

Couplers might seem a little OTT but this will increase the general sonority and flexibility.

 

This little organ must be capable of rehearsing romantic and baroque stuff. I've seen too many organs with 8 + 8 Flutes, and my little 5 stop box organ has a charming sound, but franky the Pieces en style libre sound a complete nonsense.

 

Over to you!

 

Hector

[AJJ]

'Would do exactly what you have done re the 4 stop except I would enclose the whole lot in a decent and artistic looking swell box - if you are doing the Romantics then this would be all part of the 'ambience' etc. even though it would cost more. The 4' flute could also even be harmonic for part of it's compass if you want something particularly lush.

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

The 4' Dulciana is, strictly speaking, a "Dulciana Principal" or simply "Dulciana".

The "Dulcet"

is in 2'.

 

May we use some extensions ?

 

My two cents:

 

All stops available on either I or II:

 

Open Diapason 8'

Bourdon harmonique 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

 

PEDAL:

 

Subbass 16' (borrowed+ extended from Bourdon harmonique)

 

Sub and super octave couplers !

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

The 4' Dulciana is, strictly speaking, a "Dulciana Principal" or simply "Dulciana".

The "Dulcet"

is in 2'.

 

May we use some extensions ?

 

My two cents:

 

All stops available on either I or II:

 

Open Diapason 8'

Bourdon harmonique 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

 

PEDAL:

 

Subbass 16' (borrowed+ extended from Bourdon harmonique)

 

Sub and super octave couplers !

 

Pierre

 

Nice idea too. Re Dulcianas - coincidentally I had a happy hour here last week while on holiday in Norfolk. The Snetzler pipework sounded incredible - I could have taken the Dulcianas and the German Flute home with me!

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

.....Another typical case of an hybrid, but quite interesting,

musically and historically, instrument !

 

Pierre

[gazman]

The 4' Dulciana is, strictly speaking, a "Dulciana Principal" or simply "Dulciana".

The "Dulcet"

is in 2'.

 

Sorry, Pierre, but that's utter twaddle! Every organist knows that a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana.

 

Cf Sumner 1958 p. 287. "Dulcet. An octave dulciana of quiet tone and of 4ft pitch. The stop was a favourite with the English organ-builder Greene, who liked tones of soft and refined intonation."

 

So, what do you call a 2' Dulciana (not that I can ever recall coming across one). Dulcetina?

[AJJ]

Sorry, Pierre, but that's utter twaddle! Every organist knows that a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana.

 

Cf Sumner 1958 p. 287. "Dulcet. An octave dulciana of quiet tone and of 4ft pitch. The stop was a favourite with the English organ-builder Greene, who liked tones of soft and refined intonation."

 

So, what do you call a 2' Dulciana (not that I can ever recall coming across one). Dulcetina?

 

...and also 'Dulcet' seems to have been used mostly as the term for a 4' by the Harrisons, Walkers etc. in an early/mid 20th C scheme - sometimes when an extended rank is present - similar with 'Dulcetina' for the 2'. 'Not sure whether Greene etc. would have called it 'Dulcet' though - 'can't quite work out whether Sumner means that or just that Greene liked 4' Dulcianas!

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

S. Green only used the "Dulciana" at 8' pitch, and "Dulciana Principal" at 4'.

As for the Dulcet, see the specifications which countains -contained- a

complete Dulciana chorus.

I fear Sumner was already *somewhat* biaised.

 

Here is an example:

http://orgue.free.fr/australie1.html

 

And another -and rather prestigious- one:

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N03011

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

...mind you, with terminology things can get quite fanciful! - see here on the 'Recit' - ok it is a reed but there is a Salicet present also.

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

There we do not deal with english nomenclature, but with modern french.

The "Dulcimeau" is a frenchified contraction of two others ones: "Dulzian"

and "Schalmey" ("Chalumeau"), so a Regal, belonging

to the "Schnarrwerk" also.

 

Pierre

[Tony Newnham]

Here's a headache for you - if you had to design a house organ with two and four stops respectively what would you come up with? We had had a glut of organs with 8/4 + 8/2 configurations and I'm considering either a 2 or 4 stop organ for home. My instinct is to have:

 

2 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn ( small-scale with independent bass - stopped)

 

Pedals

No stops coupled to manuals

 

Couplers

II/I - by shift coupler

II/P

I/P

 

4 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

4 Dulcet (Quasi principal)

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn

4 Open Flute

 

Pedal

16 II Pedal Pipes (transmssion of St. Diap + 5 1/2 Quint for bass 12 notes)

 

Couplers

Same

 

Couplers might seem a little OTT but this will increase the general sonority and flexibility.

 

This little organ must be capable of rehearsing romantic and baroque stuff. I've seen too many organs with 8 + 8 Flutes, and my little 5 stop box organ has a charming sound, but franky the Pieces en style libre sound a complete nonsense.

 

Over to you!

 

Hector

 

Hi

 

There are a quite a few organs of this sort of size around - see for example the "Classical Organ in Britain" series of books. My first question would be "what is the organ to be used for?" and then, "what core repertoire is the priority?"

 

Assuming 2 manuals, then Man.1 Stop Diap, Man 2, Principal 4, usual couplers

 

The 4-stop would be something like Man 1:-

Open Diap 8 (Stopped Bass)

Flute 4

 

Man 2:

Stopped Diap 8

Principal 4

 

Pedal coupled.

 

Alternatively, swp the manuals and substitute the 8ft open for s mild string, and put that manual in a Swell box, and you've got the basis for more romantic repetoire.

 

Or, maybe something like:-

 

man 1:

Stop Diap

Principal 4

 

Man 2: (from Fiddle G)

Cornet

 

Pedal:

Stopped Diap 8

 

Just some random thoughts!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[headcase]

Nice idea too. Re Dulcianas - coincidentally I had a happy hour here last week while on holiday in Norfolk. The Snetzler pipework sounded incredible - I could have taken the Dulcianas and the German Flute home with me!

 

AJJ

 

My vicar (ex Kings Lynn) suggested to me that the organ builders 'live next door' to the church, which presumably means that they can lavish much care and attention to these ranks !

 

H

[gazman]

Here is an example:

http://orgue.free.fr/australie1.html

 

And another -and rather prestigious- one:

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N03011

 

But neither of those have a 4' Dulciana on the same division. Had they, they would surely have called the 4' rank Dulcet and the 2' rank Dulcetina to avoid confusion.

 

There are exceptions to every rule but, 99.9% of the time, a Dulcet will be a 4' Dulciana!

[John Sayer]

Here's a headache for you - if you had to design a house organ with two and four stops respectively what would you come up with? We had had a glut of organs with 8/4 + 8/2 configurations and I'm considering either a 2 or 4 stop organ for home.

Hector

 

For me 8+4 and 8+2 (with 8,4,2 transmitted into the Pedal) works well enough. I elected to have shove couplers working both ways, i.e. I-II and II-I.

 

The extra flexibility is useful in works like the 'Dorian' Toccata, where you can have 8+8+4+2 for the main chorus against either 8+2 or 8+4 for the episodes. The same goes for works like the Walther Concerti.

 

A 2ft Fifteenth in a small, non-resonant room needs careful treatment, of course. Mine is right at the back of the case which reduces the sound output somewhat but makes tuning access a bit of a pig without pulling the whole instrument away from the wall.

 

I was in two minds about having a stopped 4ft - something colourful like a Quintadena - in place of the 2ft, but, in the end, the couplers won the day. The slight heterodyning effect of the two 8s together is quite satisfying in romantic music and the increased resistance of coupled manuals is useful preparation for playing on larger tracker instruments, especially those with heavy touch.

 

One thing I would not be without on any house organ, however, is a Tremulant.

 

JS

[David Coram]

Re Dulcets - I've never seen anything but a 4'. My new baby (St Peter's Bournemouth) used to have one on the Choir, changed at some point to a second 8' Celeste. See also Salicional/Salicet, Gamba/Gambette (ugh).

 

Re house organs - back to my two contrasting 4' flutes for the 2 stopper. If the pedal stop is permanently on and doesn't have a stopknob, then I'd make it an octave transmission at 8' of the least characterful of the above, with the option to couple. And a Tremulant.

 

4 stopper - Cor de nuit 8 on I, Stopped Diapason on II, with a 4' Flute and a Sesquialtra III (first draw Nazard only on II and 2' only on I) available on an either-or basis. Could live with 8' permanently on pedal only or if permitted then an octave transmission (bottom 5 quinted) at 16' of the stopped diapason. And a Tremulant.

[Alsa]

Sorry, Pierre, but that's utter twaddle! Every organist knows that a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana.

 

...except perhaps the Organists and Organ Scholars of King's College, Cambridge.

 

c.f. http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N05194

 

Eat your words, Herr Gedeckt!

[Pierre Lauwers]

So, so....

 

There is obviously a slight lack of rigour in the Dulciana nomenclature.

I suggest this one:

 

On the manuals:

 

16'= Contra Dulciana

8'= Dulciana

4'= Dulciana Principal

2 2/3'= Dulciana Quint

2'= Dulcet

Compound 2 2/3'- 1 3/5' = Dulciana Sesquialtera

Coumpond with breaks: Dulciana Mixture

Coumpond with Tierce, no breaks: Dulciana Cornet

 

On the Pedals:

 

32'= Contra Dulciana

16'= Dulciana

8'- Octave Dulciana or Dulciana Principal

4'= Dulcet

 

(This is no pedantry: we germanic people only need some order! )

 

Pierre

[gazman]

...except perhaps the Organists and Organ Scholars of King's College, Cambridge.

 

c.f. http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N05194

 

Eat your words, Herr Gedeckt!

 

Hmm...But there are other examples of nomenclature which aren't standard in that spec. As I say, 99.9 percent of the time, a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana!

 

Ok, find me more than 1 percent of Dulcets listed on NPOR which aren't at 4' pitch, and I'll eat my words!

[john carter]

Ok, find me more than 1 percent of Dulcets listed on NPOR which aren't at 4' pitch, and I'll eat my words!

 

Would Sir prefer them Grilled or Meunière?

 

PS You are spared! The children have decided it isn't such a fun game after all.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Why not a hat ?

 

Pierre

[Justadad]

From the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops

 

http://www.organstops.org/d/Dulcet.html

 

"Osiris contains sixteen examples of Dulcet at 4' pitch, ten examples at 8' pitch (of which half are of two ranks), three examples at 2', and one at 16'."

 

Best wishes

 

J

 

 

 

Hmm...But there are other examples of nomenclature which aren't standard in that spec. As I say, 99.9 percent of the time, a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana!

 

Ok, find me more than 1 percent of Dulcets listed on NPOR which aren't at 4' pitch, and I'll eat my words!

[gazman]

From the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops

 

http://www.organstops.org/d/Dulcet.html

 

"Osiris contains sixteen examples of Dulcet at 4' pitch, ten examples at 8' pitch (of which half are of two ranks), three examples at 2', and one at 16'."

 

Thanks for that link! As it says at the opening of that article:-

 

"According to most sources, the Dulcet is a Dulciana pitched an octave higher than normal [ie at 4' pitch]. It was a favorite of Samuel Green, who introduced it under the name Dulciana Principal, probably between 1780 and 1790. Wedgwood maintains that Dulcet has no fixed meaning, and while its most common usage is as described above, it may be a delicate flute or Dolce. Indeed, Locher considers it synonymous with Dolce. As early as 1910 Dulcet was used by Skinner for a two-rank stop of 8' pitch, presumably a celeste."

 

I've never come across Osiris before but it seems to be an American website with some organ specs on it. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

[bombarde32]

Stvens Irwins' Dictionary of Pipe Organ Stops gives the following:

 

DULCET: A soft Dulciana at 4' on the manuals, intended to supply the octave form of the Dulciana or Dolcan. It may be called Dulcette or Echo Octave. The 2' rank would therefore rightly be called Dulcetina.

 

It is also interesting to note that a 4' Salicional is called a SALICET, and the 2' derivative a SALICETINA. I think that this should settle the matter!

[gazman]

Stvens Irwins' Dictioany of Pipe Organ Stops gives the following:

 

DULCET: A soft Dulciana at 4' on the manuals, intended to supply the octave form of the Dulciana or Dolcan. It may be called Dulcette or Echo Octave. The 2' rank would therefore rightly be called Dulcetina.

 

It is also interesting to note that a 4' Salicional is called a SALICET, and the 2' derivative a SALICETINA. I think that this should settle the matter!

 

Thank you for that confirmation Bombarde32! Good point about the Salicet too.

 

But it's been fun discussing it though!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Let us distinguish:

 

-The "Dolcan" is the original name of the "Dolce";

 

-It was that stop that Johannes Schnetzler introduced in Britain;

 

-The Dolce, or "Flauto dolce" (synonyms) is an inverted conical stop

with a lightly stringy tone in the bass, and flutey in the treble;

 

-It was built that way by Walcker and Dalstein & Haerpfer ( eastern France) up to the 20th

century;

 

-Samuel Green simplified its construction by making the pipes plain cylindrical.

From that time the Dulciana became something else than the Dolce.

(By the way, both are typically baroque, 18th century stops)

 

Pierre