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2 & 4 Stop Teaser


Guest Hector5

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Here's a headache for you - if you had to design a house organ with two and four stops respectively what would you come up with? We had had a glut of organs with 8/4 + 8/2 configurations and I'm considering either a 2 or 4 stop organ for home. My instinct is to have:

 

2 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn ( small-scale with independent bass - stopped)

 

Pedals

No stops coupled to manuals

 

Couplers

II/I - by shift coupler

II/P

I/P

 

4 Stop version

 

Manual I

8 Stopped Diapason

4 Dulcet (Quasi principal)

 

Manual II

8 Gemshorn

4 Open Flute

 

Pedal

16 II Pedal Pipes (transmssion of St. Diap + 5 1/2 Quint for bass 12 notes)

 

Couplers

Same

 

Couplers might seem a little OTT but this will increase the general sonority and flexibility.

 

This little organ must be capable of rehearsing romantic and baroque stuff. I've seen too many organs with 8 + 8 Flutes, and my little 5 stop box organ has a charming sound, but franky the Pieces en style libre sound a complete nonsense.

 

Over to you!

 

Hector

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=D03768 is worth a thought, forgetting the silly 16'.

Peter Godden

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Nigel ALLCOAT

An interesting conundrum about what to have as a house organ. Having lived with one now for 2 weeks and had in-depth discussions with others who were purchasing, I realise that it is necessary to decide what one wants from such a modest instrument. For me, first and foremost, is the necessity to have two manuals and pedals to play music. I want something to play notes with musical sounds that are intimate and exquisite. To have anything above 8ft would be far too overwhelming for me for practising as I do not want to practise 'sound'. However I can see the reasoning to have a little more for domestic performances.

Therefore, 8 and 8 with pull downs and the opportunity to couple I/II is just nectar for me and fully adequate. To have two stopped basses would make the case too large so there is a common one. There are no difficulties nor problems with something so basic (for me).

Pics can be sent if you care to PM.

All best wishes,

Nigel

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An interesting conundrum about what to have as a house organ. Having lived with one now for 2 weeks and had in-depth discussions with others who were purchasing, I realise that it is necessary to decide what one wants from such a modest instrument. For me, first and foremost, is the necessity to have two manuals and pedals to play music. I want something to play notes with musical sounds that are intimate and exquisite. To have anything above 8ft would be far too overwhelming for me for practising as I do not want to practise 'sound'. However I can see the reasoning to have a little more for domestic performances.

Therefore, 8 and 8 with pull downs and the opportunity to couple I/II is just nectar for me and fully adequate. To have two stopped basses would make the case too large so there is a common one. There are no difficulties nor problems with something so basic (for me).

Pics can be sent if you care to PM.

All best wishes,

Nigel

I have a rather larger instrument. In truth I rarely use more than the 8, 8 , 8 (with common bass) postulated by Nigel when practising. The rest is great for illustration/performing but (with hindsight) an expensive and excessive luxury. A swell enclosure for the II manual 8 would be far more use for practice purposes.

 

Never thought I'd say that....

 

Martin

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MANUAL I

 

Dulciana 8' (First octave a mild Quintatön) in front

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

 

MANUAL II (enclosed)

 

Dolce 8' (stringy in the bass, flutey in the treble)

Flauto Dolce 4' (extended from Dolce)

 

PEDAL

 

Subbass 16' (borrowed & extended from Lieblich gedackt)

 

"non-linear" stops like the Dolce, which tones varies between bass and treble,

are interesting in such designs.

Note: 3 stops + 2 extensions.

 

Pierre

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
MANUAL I

 

Dulciana 8' (First octave a mild Quintatön) in front

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

 

MANUAL II (enclosed)

 

Dolce 8' (stringy in the bass, flutey in the treble)

Flauto Dolce 4' (extended from Dolce)

 

PEDAL

 

Subbass 16' (borrowed & extended from Lieblich gedackt)

 

"non-linear" stops like the Dolce, which tones varies between bass and treble,

are interesting in such designs.

Note: 3 stops + 2 extensions.

 

Pierre

 

For a domestic situation I agree for two manuals there must be two interesting and beguiling sounds - most certainly - or else divorce might ensue. But dear Pierre, in suggesting borrowings and extensions, will make the action a nightmare to adjust and keep light and utterly responsive, which moreover makes a simple organ so complicated. Also in a room what purpose is there in shutting beautiful sounds in a box? There is already (one might think) a door to the room. Furthermore (having evaluated cost, space and audibility in a house) the 16ft is of no use whatsoever except for spiders in which to lurk . A 4ft would be the first stop on the Pedal if funds allow and then you must have independent couplers etc. I was originally suggesting 'pure and simple' - both for cost and for practicality of space and work.

Best wishes,

Nigel

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This can be seen after several ways, of course.

Here is mine: harpsichord-like actions are rare

in the organ world, so we do not need that, but rather

something more "didactical"; and I forgot to mention

I had a pneumatic action in mind (with Taschenladen), which,

with such soundboards and limited lenghts, should be actually

rather "chirurgically" responsive.

The Swellbox may be seen as mandatory at home, we might even

have stops placed under double expression: Strings and reeds for example.

The 16' may be designed different ways. I had horizontally laid down pipes

in mind (first octave only thus).

This also is questionnable of course. There are many organs -among which

much excellent baroque flemish organs- without any 16'. But I wouldn't

dispense with, save if we decide first we build such a baroque organ.

 

And if we do so, I might possibly have a look again at Samuel Green's chamber organs.

 

Pierre

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
....harpsichord-like actions are rare

in the organ world, so we do not need that, but rather

something more "didactical"; and I forgot to mention

I had a pneumatic action in mind (with Taschenladen).

The Swellbox may be seen as mandatory at home, ....

 

Pierre

 

We seem to live in different 'houses'. I'll simply stay in mine and shut the door.

N

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For a domestic situation I agree for two manuals there must be two interesting and beguiling sounds - most certainly - or else divorce might ensue. But dear Pierre, in suggesting borrowings and extensions, will make the action a nightmare to adjust and keep light and utterly responsive, which moreover makes a simple organ so complicated. Also in a room what purpose is there in shutting beautiful sounds in a box? There is already (one might think) a door to the room. Furthermore (having evaluated cost, space and audibility in a house) the 16ft is of no use whatsoever except for spiders in which to lurk . A 4ft would be the first stop on the Pedal if funds allow and then you must have independent couplers etc. I was originally suggesting 'pure and simple' - both for cost and for practicality of space and work.

Best wishes,

Nigel

 

The choice of action seems to me every bit as important as choice of stops. My little instrument has suspended action to both manuals giving a light, highly responsive touch which is mercilessly unforgiving of sloppy technique - no bad thing you might say.

 

One possible drawback, however, is that it can be over-demanding and thus unrepresentative of the outside world, i.e. of the 'less refined' experience one has when playing other mechanical instruments, both historical and modern, let alone organs with other types of action. There are times when one might wish for something more robust, or even 'agricultural' as Francis Jackson once described it.

 

I know of one distinguished recitalist with a similar instrument who finds it advantageous to practise with manuals coupled (lower to upper for maximum tractive effort) in preparation for concerts etc.

 

JS

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We seem to live in different 'houses'. I'll simply stay in mine and shut the door.

N

 

Of course we do, but my own door stays wide open.

 

I would even have an adjustable "offset" between the manuals, and the stops,

in order to reconstitute somewhat, at will, what obtains in the reality.

This is an extreme conception. But the other one, as John Sayer just wrote,

leads towards an insatisfaction with nearly all existing organs, which become

"wrong"...

The offset in a church organ introduces a third dimension, the depth, like with

an orchestra, whose instrumentists all have their place, in broad an depth, and

never attack really togheter.

Organs built strictly in height, will all soundboard at the same distance from the

listener in shallow cases, might sometimes feel "flat", conveying the impression

you are sitting on the soundboards.

But strangely, you absolutely never feel that with a Schnitger organ.....Supposed

to be the model of such a design!

An organ is no harpsichord; you cannot deprive it of its "mystery", i.e., its multiple

interactions with the room, between the pipes, the offsets introduced by pipe placing,

which can produce strange effects when you play, togheter, pipes several metres apart,

etc. That is not "romantic effects", this is true with every baroque organ I ever met,

as with others.

And so the utmost "playing and action accuracy" may seem like wanting to have

a Porsche steering on a 20 tons truck.

 

Pierre

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Guest Hector5
An interesting conundrum about what to have as a house organ. Having lived with one now for 2 weeks and had in-depth discussions with others who were purchasing, I realise that it is necessary to decide what one wants from such a modest instrument. For me, first and foremost, is the necessity to have two manuals and pedals to play music. I want something to play notes with musical sounds that are intimate and exquisite. To have anything above 8ft would be far too overwhelming for me for practising as I do not want to practise 'sound'. However I can see the reasoning to have a little more for domestic performances.

Therefore, 8 and 8 with pull downs and the opportunity to couple I/II is just nectar for me and fully adequate. To have two stopped basses would make the case too large so there is a common one. There are no difficulties nor problems with something so basic (for me).

Pics can be sent if you care to PM.

All best wishes,

Nigel

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  • 2 months later...
One thing I would not be without on any house organ, however, is a Tremulant.

 

JS

 

It will be a few weeks before my next lesson so I would be grateful if someone could give me a quick -ish guide to when to use this. It's called Tremolo on the one I use, and the last time I pulled it out (experimentally) it felt as though the whole edifice would crash in on me, so great was the vibration.

Assuming the thing is not faulty I s'pose the degree of tremble (?) depends on what else is engaged. I can't imagine it sounding pleasing in anything other than Romantic repertoire - am I missing something?

 

Any tips gratefully received. You will have gathered I am no expert.

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It will be a few weeks before my next lesson so I would be grateful if someone could give me a quick -ish guide to when to use this. It's called Tremolo on the one I use, and the last time I pulled it out (experimentally) it felt as though the whole edifice would crash in on me, so great was the vibration.

Assuming the thing is not faulty I s'pose the degree of tremble (?) depends on what else is engaged. I can't imagine it sounding pleasing in anything other than Romantic repertoire - am I missing something?

 

Any tips gratefully received. You will have gathered I am no expert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremulant is a reasonable introduction.

 

It's mainly used in conjunction with solo stops or combinations.

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...or in conjunction with choir members who produce a similar effect without the ability to switch it off...

 

...and a similar thought occurred to me this evening as I tried it again, only to achieve what sounded like the voice of Almighty Dread, no matter what I did with it.

 

It's reassuring that it's not just my ineptitude. :blink:

Many thanks for the link, HG.

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It's mainly used in conjunction with solo stops or combinations.

Frankly, the sort of stop I think Whistlestop has in mind, where the violent sound of the motor/wind supply makes more impression than what comes out of the pipes, is best not used at all. This was certainly the advice prevalent when I was learning the organ and it always seemed sound to me. These Romantic and often rather fast tremulants can have had little or nothing to do with historical awareness and the use to which they were put of old is nowhere better exemplified than in the trio in the Minuet of Ireland's Miniature Suite where the registration is something like Sw Lieblich Gedackt 8', flute 4', Oboe + Tremulant. It lends a sickly sentimental flavour to the music.

 

On the other hand good, modern tremulants - gentle and often rather slower affairs - are most useful stops that are invaluable in Baroque music where a dregree of pathos is required - particularly, as Holz Gedeckt says, in solos. (But is this a neo-Baroque attitude? Didn't Baroque tremulants usually work on the whole organ?)

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It will be a few weeks before my next lesson so I would be grateful if someone could give me a quick -ish guide to when to use this. It's called Tremolo on the one I use, and the last time I pulled it out (experimentally) it felt as though the whole edifice would crash in on me, so great was the vibration.

 

If it has that effect, then probably 'never' would be a good idea....

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I'd have a really strong terz in that set up and a very gentle holzgedackt 8.

 

My Spec:

 

Great Organ

1. Grand Chorus XV (based on 16' open metal diapason)

 

Swell Organ

2. Full Swell VIII (Trumpet 8 + 7 rank Mixture)

3. Celestes (at least 3 ranks - more would be nice)

Octave and Suboctave couplers, unison off

Tremulant

 

Pedal Organ

4. Bombarde 16 (Full length, spotted metal, "French Voicing", with 12 extra pipes in each direction (full length, of course - no skimping here - I've been thinking really hard about this)

Octave and Suboctave couplers, unison off

 

If I was allowed another stop, I would have a Tuba Magna en Chamade on a solo manual, enclosed - maybe it could be prepared for?

 

Swell to Great at 16,8,4, Great to Pedal at 16,8,4, Swell to pedal at 16,8,4 (extra pipes to cope with all these couplers)

 

Lots of thumb pistons, generals, levels of memory, stepper, etc.

 

Would it be too much to ask to have this with tracker action with a detached, moveable console?

 

C :)

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I'd have a really strong terz in that set up and a very gentle holzgedackt 8.

 

My Spec:

 

Great Organ

1. Grand Chorus XV (based on 16' open metal diapason)

 

Swell Organ

2. Full Swell VIII (Trumpet 8 + 7 rank Mixture)

3. Celestes (at least 3 ranks - more would be nice)

Octave and Suboctave couplers, unison off

Tremulant

 

Pedal Organ

4. Bombarde 16 (Full length, spotted metal, "French Voicing", with 12 extra pipes in each direction (full length, of course - no skimping here - I've been thinking really hard about this)

Octave and Suboctave couplers, unison off

 

If I was allowed another stop, I would have a Tuba Magna en Chamade on a solo manual, enclosed - maybe it could be prepared for?

 

Swell to Great at 16,8,4, Great to Pedal at 16,8,4, Swell to pedal at 16,8,4 (extra pipes to cope with all these couplers)

 

Lots of thumb pistons, generals, levels of memory, stepper, etc.

 

Would it be too much to ask to have this with tracker action with a detached, moveable console?

 

C :angry:

 

Thank you Colin! The whole of that post has given me the biggest chuckle I've had all day! :)

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The Solo division to be build upstairs, in the children's room,

on a movable soundboard (with suspended tracker action, of course,

from the movable console downstairs), so that, when the expression window

is open, you can drive the pipes outside for a big neighbourg's awakening.

 

Pierre

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