Rowland Wateridge Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 I assume that as a school chapel Charterhouse is outside the ambit of the C of E faculty system and the ‘jurisdiction’ of the DOA. Presumably the local planning authority’s involvement was due to its being a listed building? I would not have thought that the tonal structure of an instrument could be a planning issue. In the faculty scenario that would require expert evidence to satisfy the Chancellor to permit a change on those grounds alone - but this isn’t a faculty situation, and so no comfort to the supporters of the H&H organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Allison Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 all the "historical" stuff been said is just talk (as far as I see it). But what about the cost in pounds, shillings and pence (as they say) it does not really matter if its a church, school or concert hall, its just criminal how much something like this costs, and when there are so many less well off people in this (once) great country🤐 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 Yes - it was Phil Scriven playing The fact that the inspired outstanding organists demonstrates its teaching worth. With respect I disagree that organ builders should be exonerated from having to defend decisions. Builders willing to butcher buildings and rob stones from older structures are just as culpable as those who are instructing them. This is why a Code of Conduct to which organ builders might be encouraged to subscribe could be very helpful. The issues have been around for a long time and 11 years ago John Mander and I were at an interesting conference in Zurich concerning organs. I did my best to write up notes. https://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,915.0.html setting out ideas for "Organ Rights" is potentially relevant. What is as regrettable as the loss of the organ is that those involved officially in its considerations and the expert commentators have not picked up on the rather glaring problem that the instrument presents. It's audible in the recording of the Guilmant. That this is the standard of expertise which is being applied to decision-making does not bode well for the survival of fundamentally good and valuable instruments. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 24 minutes ago, Peter Allison said: all the "historical" stuff been said is just talk (as far as I see it). But what about the cost in pounds, shillings and pence (as they say) it does not really matter if its a church, school or concert hall, its just criminal how much something like this costs, and when there are so many less well off people in this (once) great country🤐 Yes - I agree. There must be a significant difference in cost between rebuilding an existing instrument and constructing an entirely new one - unless that speaks for the quality of the new one. As a charitable body rather than a business, funds should be devoted in preference to bursaries to children whose parents cannot afford the high fees. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwenTurner Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 I'm finding this debate thoroughly fascinating. It's raising all sorts of topics where contributors are unaligned. My personal view is that Charterhouse is an organ I've never seen and is of a type I've no great affection for. However, it does sound good and if there is some consensus that it is top of its class and that there is nothing seriously wrong with it structurally, then I absolutely defend its conservation. The topics discussed in this chain are general to many other situations. There is a near perfect alignment of enough money to do something, an existing instrument of quality, turn of fashion and strong opinions. In many ways I don't think we're a lot further on than the Preston Public Hall Wilkinson debate of the mid 80s. Some of the arguments in this chain don't need much extrapolation to suggest that building a dual carriageway through a swell box was entirely the council's unchallenged prerogative. I think this is the first time I've heard suggestion that the sound world should complement architecture or original intention of a building. An interesting idea. Difficult to apply to more ancient situations I suspect, but worth exploring. Improving on, and remaining in style with Gilbert Scott, sounded optimistic but seeing photographs and drawings, I think that claim is fair. The rights and wrongs of the charitable status of private schools and how they spend their money is an even more thorny discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowland Wateridge Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 Thank you. I have to say that I was slightly offended by Peter’s dismissal of “all the "historical" stuff been said is just talk” and David’s apparent agreement in the first line of his next post. There’s very much wrong at present, not just in the organ world, by people ignoring history, law and particularly charity law. An example from nearby, totally unrelated to organs: a certain City Council was bequeathed land as public open space. Decades later, someone there thought this would make a good (income producing?) car park. The scheme ground to a halt when the relevant authority (not sure if it was the Charity Commission at that time), or possibly the court, unequivocally said this was a breach of the charitable trust and illegal. I am not for one moment suggesting that the Charterhouse situation is any way analogous; just pointing out that careful research intended to be helpful should not be lightly dismissed. A pedantic point. Giles Gilbert Scott, was the very prolific architect, his works ranging from Liverpool Anglican Cathedral to the familiar GPO telephone kiosk. Gilbert Scott, actually George Gilbert Scott, was his grandfather. In between was John Oldrid Scott, maybe others. Between them their churches and other buildings are found in the length and breadth of the British Isles and overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Rowland Wateridge said: and David’s apparent agreement in the first line of his next post. Haha! Yes - thanks for pointing that out - and like you don't quite agree with that bit: it was simply included within the line of substance. For me, the music of the War Memorial Chapel at the time, the organ which was built to express it and the sound of that instrument provide the context of the time relevant to the remembrance of the War and the warning to those who follow about wars. That music - still within the age of the Empire - certainties - expectations of victories - losses - boldness and bravery and no doubt others will be able to add more eloquently all of those contradictions that the War Memorial brings. Usually a War Memorial is architectural, monumental, but this War Memorial spoke and speaks with sound, singing and the expressions of music. https://youtu.be/ZG1swrloB94 rather sums up those emotions, even to the point of the recording being tragically truncated. However in that particular instance the replacement instrument would be equally competent but other recordings perhaps with full complement of singers and orchestra. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Allison Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 18 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said: Thank you. I have to say that I was slightly offended by Peter’s dismissal of “all the "historical" stuff been said is just talk” . sorry, I did not mean to offend. What I meant (from my own point of view) was that all the "talking" seems to have been said at various points,Whether historical or any other view, and that spending huge amounts of money, seems so wrong to me, and thats ANY organ, not just Charterhouse, when there is so much poverty in the UK at this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowland Wateridge Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Let’s forget the word “offend”! I can understand both viewpoints. I would be very upset if we lost our cathedral organ - it has happened elsewhere - but I remember at the time of the last rebuild (£400,000 an absolute bargain at the time, this was last century), the vicar of the church where I played said disapprovingly “Fancy spending all that money. It sounds just the same”. Well, he was wrong of course, H&H went a long way to restoring the instrument to its original glory, reversing a number of earlier changes made in the fashion of the day. I guess this is a scenario which has happened in many other places, may I suggest in a whisper even Canterbury and York! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Pykett Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I also am one of those who would find it offensive that so much money is spent on organs were it not for one thing. This is that it is often the case that churches often 'compensate' (if that's the right word) by doing considerable good to needy members of their communities in ways that are not as spectacular or well enough known. This forum is probably not the place to get too deeply involved in these matters, but I can immediately think of one instance where the church concerned routinely opens its doors to those who would otherwise be forced to sleep outside at this time of year in the churchyard. And the former incumbent in this case is a professionally qualified organist. I'll stop now, having made a suggestion that there is sometimes a bigger picture beyond the immediate headlines which might be taken into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Off specific topic but could anyone kindly remind me of what the first two items are on https://youtu.be/ZG1swrloB94 ? Senility strikes. Is the second Widor 6? Many thanks David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjf1967 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 The first is the Leighton Fanfare. Second Franck Piece Heroique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 10 hours ago, sjf1967 said: The first is the Leighton Fanfare. Second Franck Piece Heroique. Brilliant - thanks so much. I'm trying to compile the corpus of available recordings of this instrument. On https://youtu.be/0recmn65DJk I can't remember which Mendelssohn it is, and am hazy on the third item, and of course I should know the Elgar but can't pin it down, nailing only the Bach D minor and the Boellmann. If anyone can help me on this I hope the recording is enjoyable. The tape had to be baked in order to retrieve the recording and the quality might not be as good as others. BASF 911 tape has survived well but the 910 is all subject to the Sticky Shedding Syndrome but luckily without great loss. However, occasionally on playback or fast winding, a whole strip of oxide will shed catastrophically. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Oakley Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Well said Peter and Colin! I say so with a dilemma, knowing that the large but now silent and glorious organ where I was once a chorister is in need of at least a £million to get it operating again. In 1938 it was rebuilt and enlarged for a figure of around £6K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjf1967 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Mendelssohn is War March of the Priests (Athalia). Third is Brother James Air - Harold Darke? Elgar is Nimrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_L Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 3 hours ago, Barry Oakley said: Well said Peter and Colin! I say so with a dilemma, knowing that the large but now silent and glorious organ where I was once a chorister is in need of at least a £million to get it operating again. In 1938 it was rebuilt and enlarged for a figure of around £6K. Good on yer Barry!! Keep banging the Hull Minster (Holy Trinity) drum!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Thanks to everyone for helping to identify pieces. It's a bit like a musical crossword . . . A recording of Herbert Howells by Philip Kenyon is on Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 For those without access to Spotify is a transcription of a pre-recorded cassette on a not very good machine - apologies - but is all I've had. The original CD is "out of stock" sadly. Another recording might be enjoyable and of the classic lollipop pieces, extracted from the Organ Favourites, possibly worthy of a YouTube entry on its own Perhaps in the pleasure this instrument has given to many I might be forgiven for enthusiasm. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 Another gem to emerge from the tapes - and 700 congregation vs the Ophicleide Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_L Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 David. You are, very clearly, a man on a mission - and are to be commended for that! But, I have to say, I wouldn't put up those last three as reasons why the instrument should be kept! I'm sorry, but I found them as dull as ditch-water!!! The last one particularly! Only my opinion, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 🙂 Haha! No-one can accuse me of being biased. The instrument is of the English character and if that is as being as dull as ditchwater . . . that's how we are. The accompanying of the strings in the Albinoni is exciting and not all instruments might express the Bach D Minor as St Maximin I'm not sure one can say that one is "better" than the other - merely different. And it's in that diversity of difference that we enjoy things. Were all instruments like St Maximin then perhaps indeed some English banana and custard would be salve after the curry. The point about the Jerusalem is one of fitness for purpose. No-one can say that the instrument is too loud. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 https://youtu.be/Y2wMZeYpwWQ is a recording of 1983 Jeremiah Clarke - Trumpet Voluntary The Prince of Denmark's March Telemann Suite No2. - Con Affeto, Dolce, Largo, Vivace Loeillet Sonata in B flat. - Adagio Allegro Gavotte Sarabande Gigue Telemann Heroic Music - Reschuto, Tranquillo, Giocoso Purcell - Trumpet Tune & Air Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Some perhaps wonder how the instrument accompanies a choir . . . and perhaps https://youtu.be/IIsP6OfQSJw might be the answer accompanying the 15 choirs of the Leith Hill Music Festival and https://youtu.be/Y2wMZeYpwWQ is the accompanying of a young trumpeter who has since had a most distinguished musical career inter alia as Principal Trumpet of the BBC Philharmonic. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Two more recordings which I found very exciting https://youtu.be/_VDPHUcnUXY https://youtu.be/eXdsx_vsuu4 in which the organ plays back-stage which I hope will be enjoyable nevertheless. Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pinnegar Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 More recordings: Praetorius Lutheran Mass https://youtu.be/J5mv66uI7NI Liszt Ad Nos https://youtu.be/nkbaCQupj3I Chapel Music (very helpful in assessing suitability of the instrument for its use . . . ) https://youtu.be/S9G7KKeJFtM BBC World Service 1986 https://youtu.be/f8YKVPWLbJE Best wishes David P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now