Where can I get a copy of this hymnbook?

[Paul Isom]

I've recently heard my humble little anthem sung in a number of German churches and Cathedrals.  Listening to a number of the service, the music is often really inspiring, especially the hymns.  I've managed to find the hymnbook:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotteslob

This particular hymn is quite wonderful, although I suspect it is the player that really makes it on this occasion.  The hymn starts at 1:24'ish.  Wolfgang Seifen is a wonderful improviser - do listen to the whole recital if you have time.

Now the question - where can I get a copy of the full music edition of this hymnbook, SPECIFICALLY the one that is supplied (or rather, sold) through the diocese of Altenberg? Looking at the versions it appears that each book is geared to the diocese/area/country.

Any pointers would be hugely appreciate.

 

 

[S_L]

I have a friend who was a Lutheran 'Cantor' in a large church outside Hanover. He is a distinguished player & conductor. When I lectured at the Hochschule, in Hanover, I visited him quite frequently and was always in church for the morning Gottesdienst.

I asked him for a copy of the hymnbook they used and he gave me a melody edition. When I asked if he had an organ edition he looked blank and pointed out that he played from the melody edition, harmonising as he went along. My understanding is that this was common practice among North German Lutherans and that is how Lutheran organists were trained.

My understanding is that there is no Diocese of Altenberg. The 'Dom' was never a Cathedral or seat of a Bishop but is within the Diocese of Cologne.

I hope that helps.

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

11 hours ago, S_L said:

I asked him for a copy of the hymnbook they used and he gave me a melody edition. When I asked if he had an organ edition he looked blank and pointed out that he played from the melody edition, harmonising as he went along. My understanding is that this was common practice among North German Lutherans and that is how Lutheran organists were trained.

Historically there were two distinct traditions in this country of congregational singing and accompaniment.

One was of harmonised singing of (metrical) psalms, and then of hymns, where the whole congregation sang in parts (which survives to some extent in Welsh chapels).

The other was of unison singing where the organist was expected to vary on the fly the harmonisation of each verse (but more subtly than in modern last verse accompaniments), often with a proper introduction and with interludes between verses.

To quote my own post of 27th January, 2021:

“S.S. Wesley's A Selection of Psalm Tunes: Adapted Expressly to the English Organ with Pedals (1842) is a good example, and later in the nineteenth century Stanford was praised for the artistry with which he did this sort of thing in accompanying [unison] undergraduate hymn singing in Trinity College chapel.”

There are some Stanford examples of every verse of a hymn reharmonised in this manner in the early twentieth-century volume Varied Harmonies for Organ Accompaniment (and voices ad libitum) of Certain Tunes in Hymns Ancient And Modern.

The two versions of Goss’s Praise, my soul, which I mentioned in that post, embody the two different traditions. One was a harmonised version in the key of E (evidently considered more suitable for singing in harmony) - used transposed down for verse 2 in most modern hymn books. The other was a version with varied harmonies for each of the original five verses and in D major (more suitable for unison singing); three of these verse accompaniments of course make it into modern books.

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

The modern approach, where (in the absence of a choir) the organist plays over and over, to accompany a congregation singing in unison, a version designed for singing in four-part harmony, is a bastardisation of the two traditions, and might have struck our ancestors as unmusical.

[Paul Isom]

I thank you for the pontificating regarding how Germans play hymns.  The original simple question was, where can I get hold of a copy of this hymn book?????

[sbarber49]

8 hours ago, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:

There are some Stanford examples of every verse of a hymn reharmonised in this manner in the early twentieth-century volume Varied Harmonies for Organ Accompaniment (and voices ad libitum) of Certain Tunes in Hymns Ancient And Modern.

There is the wonderful setting of Stanford's tune 'Engleberg' for "For all the saints" in the old A&M revised. This is the tune now used for "When in our music God is glorified". (Shamefully modern editors removed the first beat - it's definitely part of the tune, not a "door-knocker"! The latest A&M has it right).

I arranged this for "When in our music" using some of Stanfords varied harmonies for verses 3 - 5 which I think works well. If anyone wants a copy PM me.

Stephen

[S_L]

5 hours ago, Paul Isom said:

I thank you for the pontificating regarding how Germans play hymns.  The original simple question was, where can I get hold of a copy of this hymn book?????

I'm sorry but, perhaps, you needed to be able to add three points together from my answer to reveal the answer to your question.

1) My friend gave me a melody edition 2) He didn't have an organ edition 3) Harmonising each verse as he saw fit (as mentioned by another poster) Revealing that a copy of the hymn book may not exist!

You then mentioned that you thought the book might be available through the Diocese of Altenberg. I made the point that Altenberg Dom is, in fact, not the seat of a Bishop, not a Cathedra and that it comes under the Diocese of Cologne. So, if th book does exist, it would be through the Diocese of Cologne.

I hope that isn't too much pontificating!!!

 

[Rowland Wateridge]

5 hours ago, Paul Isom said:

 …   … where can I get hold of a copy of this hymn book?

‘Gotteslob’ can be purchased from Germany via Amazon UK, but I’m not able to establish whether in a full harmony music edition.

Not sure whether it would meet your exacting criteria, but as an alternative to ‘Gotteslob’ eBay UK has several copies of ‘The Lutheran Hymnal’ for sale.  I have only looked at one, leather bound and very reasonably priced.  It is a US publication with translations of the German chorales in English (mostly quoting the original German first line) and appears to be a full harmony edition.   Hope this helps.  Certainly worth a look.

 

[SlowOrg]

In Germany two hymn books are currently widely used: Catholics use Gotteslob and the Protestants use Evangelisches Gesangbuch.

Altenberg lies in the catholic Archdiocese of Cologne, so the edition of Gotteslob for this dioces is in use there. You can either purchase the standard edition with melodies only, whereas the organist’s hymn book (with harmonised melodies/organ accompaniments) has a joint edition (hardback in 2 volumes) and separate editions for individual dioceses (Cologne edition).

Hope this helps.

[DaveHarries]

"Großer Gott, wir loben dich" ("Holy God We Praise Thy Name") - a paraphrase (?) of the Te Deum - is probably my favourite German hymn: I recall singing it when on a school exchange in Germany once about 25 years ago.

Dave

[Rowland Wateridge]

A digression in the best traditions of this Board.  “Holy God we praise Thy name” is sung in most RC churches; it regularly features in televised masses from Ireland and USA.  In USA it is also widely sung by other denominations.

The tune “Grosser Gott” was borrowed by Hymns Ancient and Modern for John Keble’s hymn “Sun of my Soul, Thou Saviour Dear” and given the name ‘Hursley’, the parish where Keble was vicar (and where I happen to live).  Hursley is still found as the name of the tune in some US hymnals.

In the 1937 US ‘musical film’ “Heidi” a very young Shirley Temple with her screen Grandfather sang “Holy God we praise Thy name”.  This was officially credited by the film makers as ‘Hursley by John Keble’ - they had obviously worked from a ‘Protestant’ hymn book!

Back in England (or possibly Scotland) Sir Herbert Oakeley disapproved of ‘Hursley’ as the tune for “Sun of my Soul”, considering it banal (if not that exact word) and composed as the substitute ‘Abends’ which, indeed, is the tune now most used where Keble’s beautiful hymns are still sung.

[S_L]

Perhaps this belongs in 'Are we dying on our feet?'

I remember. quite some time ago, someone posing the question 'what do we do well?' I said then that I've always thought that the sharing of our joint knowledge was where we showed ourselves in the best light! But I also think that our digressions and diversions are often quite fascinating!

Thank you Rowland, for that!! 

[Rowland Wateridge]

21 hours ago, S_L said:

Perhaps this belongs in 'Are we dying on our feet?'

Absolutely not!  “Grosser Gott” is included in Gotteslob (or at least one edition).   Moreover there is a website ‘Das Gotteslob online’ - German of course - which was a fresh discovery today.   So these ‘diversions’ can be instructive! I’m sure there will be much more for people who wish to search.

https://gotteslob.katholisch.de/?name=Grosser+Gott&sbid=&thema=&sortdir=ASC

[Hebridean]

I interpreted S_L to mean the conversation on this topic was a very good example of why the forum was a very good thing and should continue, ie it brought together expertise and knowledge even in what might, on the surface, appear to be digressions.  This is part of the theme of the ‘Are we dying on our feet?’ thread - in other words this thread answers the question of the other thread with a very clear No!