kropf

I think, the key attitude of FM Alexander is: Try to find the reasons for problems somewhere where you would not expect them to be. For myself, I found out, that singing along with the congregation while accompaning makes problems to me. I did it in my last position, where there was a small church and partially poor singing, so I wanted to help out. But to transpose down the improvised harmonisations (the Schnitger organ has a' at 469 Hz), fighting interferences with my perfect pitch and trying to read the subsequent verses printed below the chant caused a sort of singing which made my breath leave any natural flow, my body lost flexibility, my back lost upright position, and wrong notes became more and more, when that bad posture caused more and more unwanted "neighbouring" notes, as my fingers had to serve as static devices, too.... So, for me, it would just need a large sign an the desk "Do not sing with them!!!" to reduce any posture problems and subsequent problems of hymn voicing slipped notes... Now at my new post being away at least 20 meters from the first congregation member (see pic below...), singing along has become senseless anyway, so I hope to get rid of this use as soon as possible.... (My applause goes to swedish organists, where it is a "must" to sing with the congregation at least in smaller churches, otherwise they would not start....)

See here something about the rebuild of the Egedacher organ (Pierre!!) of Maria Plain near Salzburg by Ludwig Mooser Read in German about the situation in Salzburg 1850-1900 http://www.kirchen.net/upload/17111_g_walterskirchen.pdf "Wie jede Zeit, so hat aber auch das 19. Jahrhundert auf dem Gebiet des Orgelbaus Persönlichkeiten hervorgebracht, die es verstanden, ihre Instrumente individuell zu konzipieren und auszuführen. In Salzburg hatte sich, nach Jahrzehnten der Stagnation – ausgelöst durch die Säkularisation und den verheerenden Stadtbrand des Jahres 1818 – erst allmählich die Auftragslage für das Kunsthandwerk gebessert. Um die Mitte des 19. Jahrhunderts beschäftigte der aus Wien nach Salzburg zugezogene Orgelbauer Ludwig Mooser zeitweilig bereits 50 Mitarbeiter in seiner Werkstätte, bis zum Jahr 1862 hatte dieser Betrieb 120 Orgeln und 200 Klaviere gebaut und in das Gebiet der Donaumonarchie geliefert. Es gab kaum eine Kirche in der Stadt Salzburg, an deren Orgel Mooser nicht gearbeitet hatte. Noch übertroffen wurde Mooser durch die Mitglieder der weit verzweigten Orgelbauerfamilie Mauracher, die seit 1861 die Zentrale ihres Unternehmens in Salzburg hatte. In vier Generationen lieferten sie mehr als 400 Orgeln in das Gebiet der Erzdiözese Salzburg und darüber hinaus, darunter so bedeutende Werke wie die Orgeln im Dom zu Salzburg, in den Stiftskirchen Admont, St. Florian und Kremsmünster und in der Universitätskirche Salzburg. Diese enorme Produktion war nur möglich, weil in den achtziger Jahren des 19. Jahrhunderts die Werkstätten mit Maschinenbetrieb eingerichtet und großzügig erweitert worden waren. Mit Genugtuung konnten die Leser der Salzburger Zeitung am 21. April 1886 erfahren: „Wir haben es nicht noth, für Österreich von Auswärts Orgeln zu bestellen, denn mehr als aus gutem Materiale ein solides Werk herzustellen, vermögen die ausländischen Fabriken auch nicht, wenn sie auch für ein Register nun mindestens 100 Mark mehr zu rechnen gewohnt sind.“ And the Ludwig Mooser entry in www.musiklexikon.ac.at: Ludwig Mooser * 30.1.1807 Wien, † 22.5.1881 Hatvani/H. Klavier- und Orgelbauer. Sohn des Wiener Klavierbauers Peter Anton M. (* ca. 1773 [Ort?], † 1.1.1823 Wien), der als Erfinder eines raumsparenden Winkelfortepianos und des Pianoforte dopplicato gilt, Neffe von Joseph Aloys M. (1770–1839; Orgelbauer in Fribourg/CH). Nach Lehrjahren im väterlichen Betrieb schlug sich, bedingt durch den frühen Tod des Vaters, zunächst mit Reparaturarbeiten durch, kam L. M. 1826 nach Salzburg und erhielt hier 1827 die Gewerbebefugnis für den Orgel- und Instrumentenbau. Zunächst gelang ihm der Aufbau einer Klavierfabrik (Klavierbau), in der jährlich etwa 10 Instrumente gefertigt wurden, seit dem Umbau der Salzburger Domorgel (1842–45) auch die Expansion der Orgelbauwerkstätte, die mit ihren 50 Mitarbeitern das Gebiet der Donaumonarchie belieferte. 1862, am Höhepunkt dieser Entwicklung, hatte M. bereits 120 Orgeln und etwa 200 Klaviere gebaut. Da sich die Aufträge aus dem Osten der Monarchie häuften, verlegte M. 1863, nach dem Tod seiner Frau Therese, den Betrieb nach Erlau (Eger/H) und überließ seiner Tochter Josepha (* 1840, † ?) die Leitung der auf 10 Mitarbeiter reduzierten Salzburger Werkstätte. Diese Entscheidung hatte fatale Folgen für die Firma: M. musste ständig zwischen Erlau und Salzburg unterwegs sein, konnte sich kaum noch selbst um die Ausführung seiner zahlreichen Projekte kümmern, musste immer häufiger die Auftraggeber vertrösten, die ihn schließlich gerichtlich verfolgten. 1865 musste das Unternehmen in Salzburg geschlossen werden, Österreich wurde von Erlau aus beliefert. Die Söhne Karl (* 1850, † ?) und Josef (* ?, † ?) unterstützten den Vater bei der Führung der Geschäfte in Ungarn, Karl brachte allerdings durch Leichtsinn das Vermögen des Vaters durch, der in seinen letzten Lebensjahren ertaubte und zum Alkoholiker wurde. Der Großteil der etwa 200. Der Großteil der etwa 200 Orgeln M.s war einmanualig, erhalten geblieben sind nur wenige. Seine bedeutendsten Werke schuf M. für die Domkirchen in Salzburg (III/60), Gran (Esztergom/H) (III/49) und Erlau (III/52). Summary: Ludwig Mooser was born in Vienna in 1807 as a son of a piano maker, nephew of the swiss organ builder Joseph Aloys Mooser (Fribourg, CH). Since 1826 in Salzburg, working as organ and piano maker from 1827 on. First concentrating on pianoy, he expanded later to organ building following the apparently successful rebuild of the Salzburg Cathedral organ 1842-45 (another Egedacher). Up to 1862, the factory has produced 120 organs and 200 pianos, with up to 50 employees. Orders from the East of the monarchy were increasing, so he decided to move the firm to Eger (H) and to keep a small department in Salzburg with 10 workers and his daughter as director. This was a fatal decision as he had to travel extensively between the two places. 1865 the Salzburg branch was closed. The sons Karl and Josef supported their father in Hungary, but Karl spent his fathers money and in his late years, the father became deaf and an alcoholic. Most of the organs had just one manual, few have been preserved. The most important organs were Salzburg Cathedral (III/60), Gran (Esztergrom/H, III/49) and Eger (H, III/52).

I have visited this organ many years ago. The church is most beautifully situated at the Inn river, just few kilometers away from Passau. Therefore, the challenge then (at least for some experts) was to avoid a restoration by the Passau firm Eisenbarth. On the website, it says for 2006 "Our restorator, W. Rehn, introduces himself". This would mean, that the work will be done by Kuhn of Switzerland. On the Kuhn Website there is no information about it (yet). Well, I have nearly no memory about the instrument, but the local friend who guided me through the region thought it was a very precious thing. Shure, there was a nice principal chorus, but I cannot even remember the temperament.... It was one of several instruments that day, and my knowledge about historic organs was quite thin in those days...

When John Scott Whiteley arrived in Neuenfelde to record there for 21st Century Bach, he surprised me when opening the back of his car: Two boxes with about ten pairs of organ shoes! So for him the poll would have to be adapted to allow clicking EVERY button

Well, it depends...!! The roll factor of the R has significant meaning for tracing the home region of the speaker! So, a roll factor of the English "horn" would serve well for an educated North German like Harald Vogel! More simple people, perhaps with origins in Plattdeutsch, an early form of German still in use, would roll the R quite much. But if it is an educated Person with much rolling R, the speaker might originate from North Bavaria. With much guttural R it could be somebody from the Wurttemberg Region or from Thuringia.... But we may all agree on a hard G resulting in "Gaemshorn" ("game" is to much diphtonge IMHO) Nuff with that!

Dear MM, it is like with the Sieber Organ (1714, III/40) of St. Michael in Vienna, (occasionally played by Mozart then, and several years ago restored by Ahrend, too. And I think, this restoration made the way for restoring Zwettl a second time, now by him... Sieber is from the slovakian area, of course!) - the reeds were missing, but originally on the list. The Viennese ones are very loud and open, sort "a" resp. "ae" formant, usable only at full organ. THERE we have the common "austrian" pedal setup: 18 keys like in Zwettl, but just 11 sounding notes, repeating! (We loved to play Bachs Magnificat Fuga there with a registrant changing from 16' to 8' pedal reed for the bass cantus...!!) So, in general there was no cantus-playing in the pedal. The organists mostly did those Toccatas and Versets, small things, just to interrupt chant or tro provide some "entertainment" to the congregation while attending a service, where they did not understand, or even hear (if just whispered by the priest) anything at all!!! The Pedal was for longer notes in the bass, like in Italy. As mentioned, no cantus playing normally, but the service friendly "flue reed" option was certainly the advantage intended...

I think that Dietrich Kollmansberger from Tangermünde, Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany, has written something on the subject recently. Was it in "Forum Kirchenmusik" or "Ars organi"...? I do not know about its meaning to D Buxtehude, but this lunar stuff was fashionable in the hanseatic cities. The church depicted below houses one of those stunning astronomical clocks (at the back of the altar), but instead of beeing a post-war reconstruction, it has a mechanism dating from and working since 1472! (and programming the melody of its chimes for the hourly chorale is part of my new duties. At noon there is also a "walk of the apostles" on top of it. Six little statues move from one door to the next on a turning plate, but when it comes to Judas, the door closes and he has to stay outside!) In the past, these clocks were the most famous items in the churches of Lübeck, Rostock, Danzig and elsewhere in the Baltic region. The giant displays show so many things that just few tourist guides are able to explain the mysteries. If it was a source of inspiration to musicians, too...? Buxtehude also wrote a suite or something like this referring to the (then) seven planets, as sources witness. But the work is lost. Maybe it shows up at one of these attic expeditions... See the local clock here

Dear MM, I do not have my books at hand properly, as most of them are still in the cases, but I think it was Philipp Spitta who compared the f-major episode of the d-minor Passacaglia with sailing-ships gently cruising on a twinkling sea!

The move is done by 80%.... and the organ will receive its thread, but I'd like to provide a photo album comparable to Mr Lucas' work, and some audio samples, which will take some time. When started (I avoid the word "completed"....), it should be a presentation of some really impressive items. To return to the topic, I hope to add to the state of the art of improvisation on this new duty! And as the instrument shows some problems (the first month I spent more time in it than at it...), improvisation becomes more often first choice then it would be on "better" (?) instruments or organs more easy to control...

In Haarlem the Jury of 2006 hesitated a little bit to award the prize, too. The solution was there to split the prize (not do double it), because not-awarding would have been a premiere and also not so good for the atmosphere. Ewald Kooiman clarified in his speech to the audience, that the jury would have liked to have a more "striking" performer, with more originality/ability. During the considerations, when this wish was expressed, Piet Kee answered (and I thought it was a wise statement), that the personality the jury was looking for would never be developed by people who are still at or close to the age of academy students. In Germany, the first prize for an improvisation contest for liturgical playing in catholic services was awarded the last time in 1993, if I am right, and the competition was held every three years since then. I find it quite appropriate for a jury to express, that at a certain moment - a preliminary round or a final - no really fascinating improvisation was heard. The general state of improvisation is as high as it never was during the last 60 years, I think. But, like in written compositions, it has become more and more difficult to sound original. Gifted players have adapted the styles of Messiaen and Cochereau quite far, blended them with other influences - but there are very few NEW Cochereaus, Messiaens etc. around... [Maybe this was the case in all history....] By writing this post I happily catch up again to this community, having been off-line from broadband services for a month... writing now from my new office room, 100 ft away from "my" new IV/83 toy

Sorry to have left this discussion due to my sunday concert... Regarding playover* speed and rallentando: A little rallentando does NOT disturb singing in the RIGHT speed (i. e. that of the playover before braking...) Why? Like at conducting, the speed of a piece is controlled by the upbeat, the "Avviso" like some say, the beat before the first sounding beat (am lacking better vocabulary...). Regarding the organ, this upbeat is represented by the GAP between the end of the last note of the playover and the entrance of the hymn. I used to teach that a rallentando is sometimes bad taste and at most times a functional risk, as some of you have explained. But having attended many exams and many more services (and played...), I was very curios, why it DID work, even with rallentando or with DIFFERENT SPEED at the playover. The "power" of the gap was the explanation. Many of you will agree, that the gap between end of a verse and start of the next should not last a something, but one correct pulse of the music, be it a 1/4 or a 1/2 note. This may optionally result in an extended measure at the end, having a 5/4 or 6/4 final measure in a 4/4 piece. Although it is right that a concregation is widely free of musical education, there is much musical instinct. I found many congregations who would establish a better rhythm and speed stability than the organist who led them... *) I hope I got it right as the introduction to a hymn? Never discussed this issues in English...

This is very true, I think. Talking only about the situation, where the organ is the only guidance for the congregation (no conductor visible or leading choir audible): Articulation is important and has to be adapted to the acoustuical needs. It is the first mean of control, before using any extreme registrations - for "poor" congregations (talking about the number of attendants and/or the quality of their singing) the sonic atmosphere has to be balanced to a result that they feel covered ("I hope nobody can hear my poor singing in detail...") but not overwhelmed ("If I sing or not, it makes no difference, as the organ makes it alone..."). So, using a broad 8' range, lightened up with something, also soft reeds or "boxed" reeds serve very well. Lining out the melody with a treble or tenor solo line can be helpful at less known hymns. Using narrow 2' stops or powerful mixtures without any softening/damping device can really lead to that "organ solo" effect, where one refuses to sing, and should be avoided (expect full church at christmas or easter night services...) But when you have a somwhat dark registration, the only way to control the singing in reverberant spaces is to make differences between strong and weak beats - like in baroque music. For me, the principle is never in question, just the grade applied is the issue. In a small room or with a perfectly self-floating congregational singing, one may easily return to tied notes in whatever voice, and, as mentioned, the style may vary within one service, one hymn or even the same verse. In Germany, the art of applying articulation to hymn playing is not highly developed. And if players articulate, the music sometimes just sounds cut into slices, as one can hear in concerts, too, because they have "learned" to play short, but do/did not feel the music within this practice. For me, the art of grading articulation in general (much/little reverb/articulation) and in peculiar within the musical particles (upbeats, strong and weak beats) is a key ability - to organ playing, be it for hymns or written/improvised music. Saying this as somebody who really dealt much with playing in smallest and largest rooms and trying (mostly succesful) to overcome limitations which were said to be there, but where at last revealed as limitations of the resident organist and not the instrument or building itself...

and didn't they start their work recently? www.orgelpark.nl (in Dutch language only, but...) ...heva might already be aware of this project

Some strong contributions here.... I want to add: If there is somebody to fund a historizing new instrument - an as-close-as-possible copy of whatever - then do it! It will allow to: - Play old music nicely - Play not really fitting (younger) music quite nicely - Encourage improvisation and composition of contemporary music within historical limits (tuning, attack, wind characteristics) ....so, it would be really great to have one more place to experience it (as long as another masterly instrument is not sacrificed for it)! But - and here I'd agree with MM - this will hardly propulse the development of the instrument in general. WITH ONE EXCEPTION: Organ builders AND players will be forced to match the level of quality - builders should be able to transfer the QUALITY to other STYLES - players will be forced to improve their skills to manage e.g. suspended key action and to control the chiff by their touch. [This refers to copies based on 1750 and earlier techniques] Those improved skills will heighten their levels of judgement of newer and new instruments. They will question the worth of preservation for certain instruments from an expanded horizon. Results - already existing and becoming more and more: - Players get better, listen more carefully to an instrument's colours (as there really are some then!) and learn to search for those qualities in other epoques ("Save the British organ heritage...") - Composing for the organ gets stimulated, as "limitations" in most cases are more interesting for an artist than to work in ample space ("you can do whatever you want!") - Building of organs becomes more eclectic. The master quality of a Schnitger, Snetzler, Cliqout or Callido original is beeing tried to be found again in reproductions, and that quality is beeing demanded for new instruments of freelance design. And here the eclectic style appears, perhaps the most corresponding to nowaday's life: Aubertin was named, even Jürgen Ahrend has built a Swell division, Kern of Strasbourg could be named, maybe the Reill brothers, Marcussen, Grönlund and other Scandinavian firms, many in Germany (Mühleisen, Winterhalter come into my mind... sorry for the many not beeing named here ) As David said: A fine new organ, be it whatever style, can not be an error! But me too would like to see instruments, who also open new doors to the future of organ music! The fields of subtle control of wind supply for single notes/pipes might be a way, but it can't be the only one, as the music leaves our tonal system - and herewith our audience, too...!

One really has to differ between authentic interpretation and convincing* interpretation! (Though they can appear together, and that's very fine then ) *) sorry, my English does not offer a more fitting term - in German I take the word "schlüssig" for this,and coherent or conclusive might be better choice... You know the limits of "authentic" interpretation - the instrument, the playing, and finally: the AUDIENCE? But convincing or conclusive interpetation is to make some interesting music, showing many, maybe not all, of the visions and emotions a composer had in mind with his piece... And an instrument which is just WELL-MADE makes the task easier, and its style is not so important any more, than is quality. Almut Rössler, German organist and Professor in Düsseldorf, student of Messiaen, made a saying during a masterclass or an interview: "The younger organists of today do know very well how to registrate this or that piece on this or that organ. But they do not know how to do it on THEIR organ [of their regular duty/practise]"

Regarding the listener's position at Prof. Maier's samples: I think he does not want to provide the "console sound" - it is his aim to enable the organist to hear the organ more like the audience does, but not identically. He is doing some surround recording, at least using several mics, and makes a blend. Everybody working in electroacoustics knows, that you cannot have the perfect "neutral" recording... And, who of us would like to hear a single pipe (or combinations of them) recorded in an audio lab without any spatial response? So, there is sort of "sound design" at EVERY Hauptwerk sample set. As there is at every CD recording - Just move the mic stand one meter back or forth....most of you know what can happen, especially when using omnidirectional mics.... Regarding the "unavailability" of Maier's samples for organs in churches: Yes, it is right, and so there are more fine producers - looking for an instrument to accompany the choir on a loft in a reverberant church, where the congregation is not really able to see what sort of keys I'm pressing and if some speakers are standing there, I could imagine buying the sounds provided by Silver Octopus Studios with Willis organs as sources! (Maybe I will do it for my next post in Rostock, to have nice sounds AND to be close to the congregation, using a small loft in the nave...???) Pierre, would that be regarded as "saving the British Organ Heritage?"

For consoles with touch screen units see: www.thevirtualpipeorgan.com It is a cooperation of a German organ builder and Prof. Maier of organartmedia. He provides the (probably) best samples for Hauptwerk - I own the Italian Callido organ and considered using it for teaching at the Graz University of music (but I have quit there...) to demonstrate characteristics of Italian organs - of course not regarding the action! But note, that organartmedia samples are strictly forbidden to be used in public performances!

Here I have to make some additions: The original Tertian as found at Schnitger and his predecessors is NOT intended as a chorus voice! Especially when it is breaking (that's why you often find modern versions starting already at 4/5' in the bottom octave, but then breaking in the middle or treble...) Together (or played without) the high pitched Scharff of the Rückpositiv, it is intended to transfer the color of e third throughout the whole keyboard compass! Remember those chorale fantasies by Reincken, Weckmann, Buxtehude: They often have these wonderful crazy crossings of the virtuoso solo voice, coming from the right end of the keyboard to the left end within or two measures! That is where breaking stops provide the same brilliance in the bass and the treble range, enabling the solo voice to be heard even against accompaning reeds or semi-pleno flues in Oberwerk or Hauptwerk and Pedal (MM is welcome to once again praise North German and Netherland's reed stops now...!) Neuenfelde shows a Rückpositiv with Tertian AND Sesquialtera* - the first breaking, the latter not. Both options are available there. Depending on the temperament the organs have today, of course using the tertian in the chorus is possible and nice. But it becomes tiring as soon as the temperament tends towards equal temperament, as the diminshed thirds get more and more in conflict with the pure ones of the stop. *) Sadly no more of original Schnitger pipework, but other baroque pipework...

@David Coram: Thanks, I did not know those things, so this was exactly what I was looking for! @Pierre Lauwers: No, no - there is no humidifier in Rostock! I just wondered if there should be one in future... - oh, and the roses are really to early this year... Yours are probably english garden roses, aren't they? @Tony Newnham: Thanks to you, I'm going to get a copy! About risks: There are previous topics in this forum where cases of over-humidification have been described. Well, I learn, that at least everything has to be kept under qualified and regular control. The only (micro)-climate related thing I know in my region here is in St Jacobi Hamburg, where they have the custom to start the blower hours before the organ shall be used, but the idea is not to influence humidity in any way, but to get the temperatures where the reeds are best in tune. Which principles are active there and if it works at all, I do not know. And maybe, after all what MM has brought up again, it makes the situation even worse... This wisdom is making its way here, too... But in a quiet manner, as one can understand...

Dear MM, thanks for this first portion! I have basic knowledge of climate and humidity mechanics ( ), but indeed the situation on the british isles is quite unknown to me - except what I experienced during my stays there... I'd like to know more about the humidifiers following the question at my start. I am asking regarding the Rostock instrument which has a two stage electropneumatic action with subsequent masses of bellows. The blowers are in the tower chamber and sucking air which is approximately of exterior quality (The church itself is unheated, so the differences are not as gravid as one could be afraid of, but...). Rostock is situated at the baltic cost, and a Siberian low pressure area produces a wonderful blue sky there... including low humidity! So I'm interested in technical details and - of course - all risks. The acetic-acid issue is already wide-spread among German experts for historic organs. I learned that it has also to do with the use of a certain glue, and if I'm right, one of the more recnet products, used at restorations. So restorations might turn out as source of this lethal "virus"....

Here and there, reading descriptions of English organs, one stumbles about humidifiers and humidifcation systems in blower chambers of larger organs. I do not know about such features on continental instruments. I'd like to learn more about them - How do the older models work? Are there modern variants (perhaps using electronic control)? Was their existence a benefit for the organ? If not, under which circumstances? Are there certain known issues and dangers (as over-humidification or rotting of soundboards, corrosion etc.)? Many thanks to all contributors who will shed some light!

For me, St Bavo belongs to the very few instruments, who have taught me following: (For the question, what to play on it,) It is not important, which style an organ has. Just its quality is the question. I mentioned elsewhere the jury concert of the improvisation contest in 2007: David Briggs made the organ sound like one of the better french symphonic ones... and Daniel Roth could have done it, too (because of its versatility), but playing after Briggs, he was so wise and nice to change his concept completely, and continued the concert in a very different style.

Sorry - but it already happened. Latest occasion was the Lent programme of this year's "Neuenfelder Orgelmusiken". But it was just one of the small chorale preludes. Dynamic variation was achieved by moving the voices one by one from one manual to the other (coupled), and some minor registration changes... Already Alain, Vierne and other "banned" composers have been presented with good effect, though mostly smaller pieces. And why? The instrument is not completely baroque, at the moment, so to keep audience and players happy, the programmes introduce also younger epoques of music. When restored closer to its original state, the fascination of 17c music will be sufficient enough...

Yes! Have some numbers from the psalm recordings from Westminster Abbey as a permanent recreation tool on my laptop! So this means just listening for me. But during studying in Vienna, i liked to be called as substitute singer for the Anglican Church there...! Beeing organist (but a poor one, under those circumstances) for a vacational singing of the Walbrook singers at Derby cathedral, some years ago, I learned about the high task. Will try to introduce english psalm settings with german words at my coming position.... I offer my deep respect to all choirs and organists performing psalms on high level! It is really one of the finest jewels within the global treasure of church music.

Don't panic - the organ has been on slider chests throughout its life! The soundboards date - at least in components - back to Paul Schmidt 1769 and Joseph Marx 1792. The C#s of the manual bottom octaves and Pedal notes e, f, f# are on Taschenladen, though. The 1938 question is a serious one and will be considered - of course! But this is all off topic here - the thread is about the British heritage. As promised, the Rostock issue will get a dedicated web presentation in summer...