kropf

A funny thing, but a classic in life of art, too, that people from abroad make themselves to advocates of something in a foreign country - but so did I, when I moved 400 miles to Germany to reignite the people's fascination for Schnitger's village organs south west of Hamburg, many years ago. So I am with Pierre, too, but I think, the replies of MM and Cynic have many important points. I am listening VERY carefully to the warning words of many here, saying, that building copies of historic instruments is the death of developement of this instrument. Well, depending on the situation, I love to reply, that the concert grand or even more the violin are not beeing developed anymore, but still music is written for them (and improvised on them! You know my hobby...). But if we found out, that by occasion, there is a poor instrument, not worth of being considered as a messenger of its time, a new instrument may follow. I think, there is an essence in the previews postings: Try to keep an instrument free of an exclusive relation to one single person! In Germany in the Wirtschaftswunder decades after the war, it was general use, that the new organist of a larger organ modified its specification (at least...) shortly after taking up the post... It is not the case anymore in that intensity. Most of the organists of this forum knows, that he would be able to persuade a parish to remove an important historic instrument just by presenting it in an most inadequate way, and if there is no other voice, they are going to here, a Schnitger, F W or C-C could be sent to scrap! Regarding restorations, we have parties with differing opinions, too - a small symposium with three or more leading advisers helps making sure, that future generations will not roll their eyes about what has been decided to do. Everything I wrote just now is also adressed to myself. I'm leaving an important historic instrument, where I managed to start a restoration project (dunno when it will reach its end...) and made clear to the congregation, that the should take advantage of a group of advisors, not only a single one, so it should be prevented that advisor A gives the job to his buddy organ builder B, who already built A's last ten projects.... I am moving on to a very impressive, large organ, that Pierre and his friend Gerhard Walcker-Mayer might be quite enthusiastic about, but for me it would be easy to mention five well-known musicians, who would just discuss the melting point of its interior... I hope I am going to get a IMHO typical solution for our time, the "eclectic" one: Everything (of pipework) and some other characteristics shall be kept, but, as there is still much space and there are considerable problems, additions should be allowed. They shall be reversible, so future generations should not be able to charge us a heavy crime. But not every instrument offers this way. When Schnitger incorporated older pipework e g in St Jacobi Hamburg, or Cavaillé-Coll did e g in St Sulpice, we see the named masters as the authors of the instrument, who have recasted its appearence and brought the instruments to their peak. We should try as hard as possible today, if we consider work of similar impact, to find masters, one can trust in their capabilities to reform, redesign the instruments, to get them to a new peak and not into deep crisis... I think, we are just able to try bravely, whe will never have security. Time will tell. So if one thing might be accused of ruining the organ heritage already now, it might be: Carelessness! This forum alone already provides a noticeable factor of influencing opinions and developing sensibility. Keep the discussion going. Sorry to have talked so much about myself!

This really shows hands-on (tongue-on?) experience! But there are still romantic, fine, british-made instruments on site or moved to abroad, where you don' have to? Ear defenders - this makes me thinking of adapting pop musician's in-ear-monitoring to organists, using it for smart control of the instrument, when using distant remote consoles like at St. Eustache and elsewhere...

Check the Klais Website for some of their recent large Concert Hall (and some church) Organs - they often have the Vox Balenae 64' (the whale's voice), which, at least in the bottom octave, is 32'+21.2/3', as far as I know. The latter rank is derived from the 32' - the gap between pure and tempered fifth can be ignored at such frequencies...

Of course I do not know the instrument which is the base of this topic, but I want to tell that in Germany the sense for the own value of this category of organs is rising. Sometimes it is difficult to find out if a certain instrument is really a masterpiece or at least an authentic statement of its period, or just trash. I personally do hope (and am speaking now only about the situation I know, which is for Germany, Austria, and some neighbouring regions) that the movement of interest in certain epoques of organ music, which started with 17th and 18th century music 80 years ago, always included Bach and later went further on to romantic German music, then conquered french symphonic style with great enthusiasm (though widely getting stuck there!), in its next step will rediscover the non-romantic music of the 30ies and the following decades. I know that the english speaking world and Scandinavia have a little different situation, because WW II did not cause such a break in musical development. (As mentioned elsewhere, that is one reason why Germans are so happy now to discover and adapt Anglican church music from the 20th century). Still, important composers like Hindemith, Distler, David, do net receive much appreciation among organ afficionados. But the time will come, and organ builders here will start to search for "historic" consoles from 1935 or 1965 in churches out of the cities, to get hand on the last surviving samples of all those colourful small levers for the "Freie Kombinationen", to build perfectly historic reconstructions of consoles for organs with EP action (well, I mean at least for the stop action...), to regain instruments where you can play those narrow scaled flues, those weak reeds with often incorrect cup forms and dimensions, and everything working on a wind of 60 mm... And people might enjoy (?) a plenum which allows whispering to your neighbour choir member on the balcony while listening to it, AND beeing understood (try this with a new Rieger organ...) More and more builders, consultants and organists realize: There WERE some learned people in those decades, who HAD their visions and knew, why and how to build those organs that way we now find difficult to judge.

That's my personal HP, for Neuenfelde you'd better use www.schnitgerorgel.de Regarding Rostock, I just want to say, that this forum will heartily be invited to take part in the discussion which this instrument really needs. Don't want to tell too much right now, but I think it's going to be a thrilling challenge. More about it in summer, when I'm really on duty there...!

Hello together! One of our members asked me, what has happened in Neuenfelde, where the Hamburg Airbus factory wanted to extend its runway into Arp Schnitger' home village? The runway extension is nearly completed. Airbus was ordered to pay a reinforcement of the church's roof tiles (to happen later this year) in expectation of increased aerodynamic loads due to A380 operations. But if those flights will ever happen, is an open question again, since Airbus has announced plans for major restructuration of their production flow. Surely, the City of Hamburg is fighting to keep everything as arranged, but we will not know, if the A380 delivery centre for Hamburg really is going to be built one day. However, the A380 freighter version programme, always used as main* argument for the runway extension, has been paused because the few placed orders meanwhile have been cancelled completely! Airbus stresses that this does not mean the complete stop of the freighter version programme - but who knows... *) but it was a false one - the very reasons are: 1) Full compatibility of all Airbus sites with all Aircraft types was internally announced already 10 years ago 2) The now former runway was no more compatible with updates safety requirements (issues were the RESA Runway End Safety Area and too little open space between the parallel road and the runway) Summary: 1) Very much money has been spent by Hamburg (850 billion EUR for the A380 project, including 88 million EUR for the runway extension) 2) With its current programme "Power8", Airbus showed that spending money on aircraft industry today is even more risky than decades before 3) The Neuenfelde church is saved for one and a half reasons: First one is the missing of A380 operations to date, and maybe in future, the second are technical measures at the church building 4) The village and parish of Neuenfelde have suffered noticeably, since the City of Hamburg bought 50 houses to prevent owners of taking legal action against the City, but has left these houses empty or filled them (via sub entrepeneurs) with polish workers for the local shipyard (The guys are OK and are working really hard, but are no real neighbours, as you can't talk to them...)... For illustration, see first the situation around 2000: then my simulation of the original design of the extension: and the now nearly-completed version - note the curve at the right side of the project: To prevent loosing the expropriation lawsuit at court, the City tried to BUY all required land. The parish and one farmer refused to sell their's, and so the City built the project AROUND those sections of land...(The aeral view will tell generations about the conflict ) This picture dates from last summer. Now, in may, they have already casted first concrete of the runway floor, the surrounding road is open (and very busy), the blast fences are erected... Again thanks go to all supporters of the INZENSO campaign, which showed us, that the world - and certainly the english-speaking world - is still connected very much to the area, since the days of 1949 when Geraint Jones made his first recordings in the neighbouring Steinkirchen... And the future of the organ? The parish has just ordered a complete scientific investigation of the instrument to prepare the considerations of the restoration, which hopefully shall happen in the form of a public symposium. This investigation will coust around 80.000 EUR. The restoration itself will be around 600.000 to 1.000.000 EUR, depending on the time of start and the amount of work. No big sponsor visible, but we continue to be optimistic! Why? It happens around us - still parishes and fundraising societies succeed in restoring and building fine organs! And so I'm optimistic, too, to raise money for the large instrument at St. Marien Rostock, which I will be responsible for from July 1st. It was a nice time in Neuenfelde. Greetings!

Already longer ago.... I accompanied the Dvorak Mass in D, playing the Klais (IV/73 or so) of Graz Cathedral, Austria. When finishing the first Kyrie with the great D major cadence, my page turner pressed the combination button for the expected Gedackt 8' to accompany the entrance of the "Christe" by the solo soprano. But instead of it, there came a mix containing the Vox humana, the tremulant and the Zimbelstern!* Knowing that the combination system there was thunderstorm sensitive and had its faults, I quickly re-hit the button, and there the Gedackt was - but the Zimbelstern joyfully ringed on for some seconds... *) I was lucky that the voicing of the instrument is so poor, that it did not disturb the singer too much...

Maybe! But to conduct those sweet memories into the funding of an organ rebuild in Kaliningrad might have much "harder" reasons: - to keep the Germans in Germany sympathetic with his gas pipeline, resp. gas supertanker route project from the Russia to Germany, making its way through the baltic sea and leaving Poland aside....? - to help nostalgic Germans in Germany and similar "elements" in the baltic region bearing in mind, that russia will never resign in that exclave (which is important, as the surrounding baltic states have separated themselves from the former SU as much as possible, as you know).... Late officers of the legendary GDR state security department "Staatssicherheit" ("Stasi" - mind the oscar awarded movie "Das Leben der anderen" ["The Life of the others"]), who were on duty together with Putin in Dresden in his years, reported, that, regarding his age, Putin reached a very high position within the career system of KGB officers quite early. He definitely was a 120% guy, and most probably he still is.... Whe should bear this in mind. But looking forward to the creation of an presumably interesting instrument should be allowed, too... NB: I'm Austrian!

At Ratzeburg, the drinks cabinet had to be filled by the VISITING organist! The fire engine story is definitely true, as Dr. Neithard Bethke was the chief of the local fire department. And the congregation was used to see him disappear during services occasionally. Only for concerts he called for a substitute at the fire department. The garage port of his beautiful house at the lakeside was labeled "Feuerwehrausfahrt! Unbedingt freihalten!" He has just retired (or - as he would describe it, was asked to do so...) and will be succeeded by Christian Skobovsky, currently DoM at Freiberg Cathedral in Saxony. There were 60 applicants for the post...! The Neuenfelde Schnitger organ has a "Noli me tangere" stop, too, but it is locked and nothing happens. But somewhere on a village organ in the region here there is stop called "Nashorn" - the German word for Rhinozeros. Don't know, what sound the stop has, but it is a real one...

At the Haarlem Improvisation contest, they provide two specialized registrants, one is usually the official "city registrant". And they are very capable! Understanding in several languages what you are wanting them to do, no matter if calling for details ("Bovenwerk Principaal off!") or more general orders ("Foundations on Rugpositiv!", "slow general crescendo!"). They are at least necessary for smaller people who would not be able to reach the outer drawknobs - this can happen on nearly every large baroque instrument of the Netherlands and Northern Germany. These improvisations have definitely not been rehearsed! The whole scene perfectly resembles the typical organ visit! One visitor plays, the local organist or other well-meaning people pull stops, the first one perhaps to present beautiful colors (and probably cancelling some reed stops when discovering that tuning has happened too long ago...) or to reduce the volume originally selected by the player, to relieve the people who are around in the church..., the latter one just to browse through the specification. Anybody responsible for an attractive instrument remembers scenes like this one on the video... More or less poor music, playing and registration, but great joy among the visitors, at least for the player...

Indeed very interesting. Most of you might know that at large catholic churches or cathedrals in Germany, the positions of organist and choirmaster are split (mostly due to the high amount of "lower" services which need the organ only and would make it impossible for a broadband musician to cover these AND to train the choirs). (This "German catholic" model is also found at most scandinavian cathedrals.) Large protestant churches in Germany prefer to have the English model of a DoM, with or without assistants/organ scholars. Very few exceptions have two musicians of equal importance, e. g. Hamburg St. Michaelis. German academic church music education traditionally emphasized the all-in-one musician, but the situation (of the parishes) is changing, and many of the the posts become more and more individually accentuated, and so a brilliant choirmast but merely poor organist can get his job as will the organ virtuoso who should better not try to lead a choir warm-up... Though, the latter situation is the less lucky one, as most congregations try to bind "new" people to their congregations, so being an attractive leader of choirs and other ensembles is now the more important capability for smaller and medium-sized posts. Could anyvbody provide a link or something for more information about that Governmental programme to encourage singing in schools? Thanks and greetings

Wasn't it Maurizio Kagel, who said: "I do not believe in God, but I believe in the Matthaeus-Passion by Bach." Personally, I'd say, that discussions like this would be more precise if you differ between believing into a god [or a certain spiritual system or at least somrthing after death] and believing into/with a church.

Carlo Curley.... there is a quite popular German organist with similar body shape...and years ago there was the joke going around, that they have invented the concave radiating manual keyboard for him...

English Tubas... I'll tell you a story: When I was young I did not like black (= rye) bread, at least not the way I knew it. When I came to Germany and Scandinavia later and discovered very nice and tasty variations of black or "grey" bread, I nearly became angry for my home country asking: If it always was possible to make BETTER bread, why didn't they make it??? When I was pulling reed stops an organs of my youth and even during studies in Viennna, in 19 of 20 cases I was immediately sorry that I did. Try the stop, listen to it and then discard it. Then there they were: Historical (north German) reeds restored by Ahrend and similar masters, or the Hautbois stops of Cavaillé-Coll, french trumpets - still to loud for most occasions, but at least a loudness of quality and taste! Later I learned to discover, that here and there in Austria or Germany you could find some "forgotten" free reeds, a Walcker Clarinet maybe, and there were still some jewels available. But for most of the stops I was asking again: If it always was possible to make BETTER stops, why didn't they make them??? And then, meeting the Tubas, on recordings first, then live in Westminster Abbey, coronated by the fine voices of those trebles, gently filled up by enclosed divisions, and the melody in Tenor, played on the Tuba - finally (!) a stop with body, some brightness, yes, but not ONLY harmonics! And again the question: If it always.... (Yes, later I learned, that also in Germany there were "Horn" stops, but where could you find them?) For a Tuba, I would consider having it on the list on an organ of approx. 43+ stops (3m), not earlier, but for larger instruments, I would never want to have an instrument without a (fine, of course) tuba! (Except it is NOT used for liturgy, but for concerts only) Next topic: The 32 foot stops! For most of them - flues and sometimes reeds, too - I found the finer ones not on the continent, as the old ones are often gone, and the new ones are much to powerful, making windows and pews rattle etc. But then I heard the 32', accompaning Voix celeste or some other foundations, and it fit just perfectly... These details, and the principle of having an organ which is extremely well designed for accompaniment, that is what I would call attractive in British organ building. Not more, I think, but that's already quite much. This happens occasionally, though mostly in smaller scale: Organs or stops from dismantled English instruments find there way to the continent, and even if it is not a Hill or a Willis, parishes proudly say that they have XXX stop from an old organ from GB... Sometimes a complete division may be integrated in a continental instrument... Nothing! But these words do not fit to the fine examples, and people who import french or whatsoever principles of organ building, do only dream about the state of the art instruments... If I got you right talking about monarchy in general, have a look into a German newspaper stand and its yellow press: It is all about queens and princesses... So be a little proud of this concept which flourished for, as you say, 40 years only...!

Hi - it's late, but I want to answer briefly: Yes, Barry (Jordan), I'm sure, that divisional combinations well become more and more popular in Germany - and when it comes to rebuild Rostock St. Marien, I will include them there (!!!). To MM and Barry: As mentioned elsewhere previously, there is one fine advantage of those little drawknobs (maybe the only one...): You can change prepared combinations while already playing (on another one or the "Handregistrierung") - great for improvisation, though you would not use it very often. But do discover, that a prepared combination would be, now in the momen, somewhat better with a little modification, you can still add it (if you are able to control it while playing ) In restoration projects, where they try to retain those consoles, they make these one, two, three or (like Rostock) four free combinations, AND to have a modern "Setzer". Sometimes they even motorize the rocker tablets so that they show the current registration... A nice feature (though expensive), and combines demands of modern players and the heritage authorities... Rage about English music in Germany? True, somehow... They are discovering all those anthems with organ accompaniment - cheaper than an romantic orchestra mass, often easier to learn, but with the same effect to the audience/congregation...

Hello from Hamburg...! Not really on topic (Gt enclosure...) - but I found out that this topic became more and more dedicated to the work of John Compton. I had a brief encounter with the instrument at Derby Cathedral, and I must put myself into the line of those saying that a musical instrument it was. For me, it was my first with a (partially? can't remember...) enclosed Gt, and most surprising for me, I had to learn, that the extension principle (or "unit-organ") is not the horrible dragon as was told to students in continental Europe (say: Germany + Austria, where I have experienced it) over decades. I know that the Derby organ has been modified and "straightened" - but I was really surprised to read the brochure, which is being sold there, and to learn about which stop was derived from which rank. (This brochure might be reommended for starting to study Compton's extension principles) From continental view, the amount of borrowings was just *enormous*! But, it was practically not audible! Well, I did not play Bach or Buxtehude, but Mendelssohn, and I heard the organ during the service. ...It was one of those lessons in my life, where I learned, that you always have to question what "they" (in that case teachers of "Orgelbaukunde"...) tell you... And, returning to the topic, I think the question if an enclosed Gt makes sense, is, as so often, the question, WHO is going to build it. They told us students, a good organ has to have a case! Later I learned, that Silbermann's Freiberg organ has no "roof", and that Schnitger's Oberwerk in Hamburg Jacobi has not either, but it projects via the ceiling vaults...as do those wonderful organs of the late Johannes Klais (NOT Hans Gerd Klais) in neo-gothic churches in Western Germany and Belgium... another dogma, which is somehow relative... And I loved the Derby console with those luminous controllers.... much better to have a "flock" of stops of a division than lined up, as on most organs of Karl Schuke (Berlin)... I have to confirm Barry Jordan's concerns (articulated previously on this forum) about using the same motion to call AND to cancel a stop... but if I get the advantage of changing stops, whose controls would - in a conventional line-up - normally be far away from each other, with one motion only and even in strange combinations, then I would find it attractive. As far as I remember, the stops on the Derby console have been "grouped" within the layout of the jambs... I dislike those giant consoles where the drawknobs are are equally far away from each other - even between the columns! Even if it's your "own" instrument, it sometimes can be hard to find the right knob... A blessed Easter Night to all!

Oh yes, the aspect of confession is an important one: In catholic liturgy the organ was ALWAYS decorative (for some it is still today, and not integral part of the liturgy, as the Vaticanum II council articulated in 1963). But having a singing congregation as integral part of the service (as in protestant liturgy) and needing to clarify the melody which has to be sung or to accompany it, this gives the organ a more important role. Scholars will say (and are right!), that accompaniment of congregational singing started much later than the period of Sweelinck, his pupils Scheidt, Scheidemann, J. Praetorius a. o. dates, so there must be more behind it. Well, Churches like St. Mary's in Lubeck and many others in the hanseatic cities, have been projected as "citizen churches" (Bürgerkirche) - they were the counterpoints to the cathedrals, who were symbols of foreign domination. After the storms of reformation (which happened relatively soon after this churches have been built) have calmed again, it was much easier in those cities to "celebrate yourself" as citizen by funding or donating large organs, bells or whatever, to your local church. This would always have been possible in a R.C. church, too, but in those centuries, the clergymen and bishops kept trying to concentrate all attention on themselves, at least during the service. Often they were people of secular power, too. Protestant churches - when developing well and in the sense of their proponents - tried more to focus on the words of the bible or the messages of salvation than to create pomp and circumstance in displaying "earthly" glory. And they were merely situated in parts of Europe, where people had a tendency to design life in a more intellectual than emotional way. (Why did every northern artist have to travel to Italy? He could not find this way of living and feeling in the North!) That's definitely true! Bach was always KNOWN among scholars and educated musicians. Mostly he was not loved, but he was known at least as a strange apparition in music history. There are sources reporting that there have always been a few "freaks" around to read or play the Kunst der Fuge, the WTC etc. Of course, Bach was not mainstream taste for about one century.

I happily received my copy of "The American Classic Organ - A History in Letters" some days ago. Is there any book available, which covers the development of the neo-classical organ (or Orgelbewegung organ or what you would call it) in Great Britain? I learned this and that about Ralph Downes on this forum here, but there might be much more.. Thanks!

4 oboes and more... is that due to the dedication to short-cup reeds of those Orgelbewegung people? This should make it's way into my calendar! Thanks, Barry

An upcoming question when questioning JSBs authorship is always: Who else could have done it? If JSB, it is certainly an earlier piece (considering the style), and if you ever made a survey what existed as written (and, of course, until today preserved...) music in those years in the area, you will always conclude that JSB's capabilities were far above those of contemporary "masters" (even if Buxtehude and Pachelbel where succesful in solving several musical problems, as far as we know today), what means: Most of the finer pieces could not have been written by others. Some would count the Pedal exercitium among them, some would not...

Hello! Even with our often fascinating instruments here in the area of Luebeck, Hamburg and Bremen, the situation is not so much better - there is a lack of young people being interested in learning to play the organ. But on sunday I attended an organ concert for children in a smaller Hamburg church, together with my kids of 3 and 4, and they had much fun, as about 30 others around, though it was finest weather outside. But one has to admit that the families have already been connected to the church somehow... But I am able to report that a project of the Orgelakademie Stade is very successful: Making visits to primary schools and holding sort of workshops there, Annegret Kleindopf (staff member of the Orgelakademie), raises much interest among the youngsters. Most fascinating is the enthusiasm amongst muslim kids! (there are many turkish immigrants in industrial areas in Germany) It is really touching to watch and hear children of turkish family background recalling the dates when Arp Schnitger was apprentice of Berendt Hus or rebuilt the Stade St. Cosmae organ! Looking forward to take over a job at a major church in eastern Germany (aka as former German Democratic Republic...), I see it, including all the problems, as a chance to have an environment, where christian background has disappeared so far, that it is not EMBARRASSING anymore to step into a church or be a member of a choir. Friends will not ask anymore: "How are you able to participate there at those fancy rites and weird ideas?" but "Oh, a church? What is it, what are you doing there?" It is more like starting on a blank page. Well, this was a little bit over-positive (greetings to Barry Jordan...) and viewing through the pink glasses, but I want to say, that the fascination of the organ (and the REAL one, of course!) will exist forever. And indeed, the reputation of "church" and "religion" are of influence, but we know, that this instrument started its fascinating career without those two aspects...! (To make it clear, I hope that interest in organ not beeing obstructed by religous aspects may always be at least the entrance to this instrument, but should at the very end lead into a spiritual dimension, beneath whatever confessional surface...). As long as enthusiastic organists go out to the people to tell about their instrument, they will always succeed, sooner or later (as succesful fundraising for bebuilds and new organs here in Germany shows, wehn happening under rural and difficult circumstances...) Some events in Stade, suitable for Children (German text)

It was on the program of the organ competition of Graz (Austria) in September 06. Seems to exist in an organ & piano reduction, too (authorized?), as this was compulsory programme for the competition round. this version might be a challenge for two gifted players... The winner had to perform it with orchestra for the awarding ceremony. I did not hear it, but did not hear any (positive) remarks during the preparation of the competition (though I was in the area in those days...).

The Casella is indeed a nice thing, but needs large orchestra. What about Anton Heiller's 'Organ Concerto? I do not know the size of the orchestra neede. But he also wrote a concerto for positive organ, harpsichord and chamber orchestra (all Doblinger edition).

I do not have the music at hand, but it seems to be the last page in the Peters edition: I would support the version to sharpen the manual notes and not to align them to the pedal triplets. Many players misunderstand the Allegro assai and perform a show of "see how fast I can move my feet". Even in medium acoustics the result is very muddy. The Allegro assai is related to the basic beat, it is IMO (and some other's) not intended to instate the triplets as a metrum which is even faster than all the small values before. The whole final section can combine majesty and dramatic action, if played with musical and acoustical control, in spite of testing the limits of action and winding.

MM has named some builders, amongst them the German Walcker firm - but you can never generalize for a firm, it is always the question who did the voicing. And several thousand instruments bear(ed) the Walcker sign, but there are many hundreds who are definetly not a work of art. MM names the occasional absence of tonal beauty today and in recent decades: Regarding new instruments of the last 20 years (generally spoken), I am convinced, that the main difference in voicing between then and now is TIME. It is incredible, how short it takes today for some builders to "finish" a large instrument... and there are many organs around, who where unfinished for inauguration and still are... Take Schulze, at his work in Lübeck, St. Mary's: He brought test pipes, developed or changed some scalings on location, took finished stops out again until he was pleased with the result... Today, just very few customers, I suppose, would be willing to pay such efforts...