kropf

You are! See it here! In the German "Orgelforum" there were several threads about English organs in Germany, check this one Germany already hosts several old italian organs - many of the every ambitious Music Academies with Organ/Church music department do so. Some french instruments are there, too, the Lübeck Academy purchased a Cavaillé-Coll/Mutin "salon" organ. From Poland spare parts for restored Walcker and other romantic organs return to the land of their origin, and now we see the first US organ arriving... I like this variety of our days! Without killing each other, there are enthusiasts for recreating/restoring electric consoles and orchestral organs (even the very few remaining theatre organs receive honour (and restoration and playing!) again), and two miles away others are casting pipe metal on sand, planing boards by hand and applying natural materials to the surfaces. Gothic pipes (Ostönnen organ) are beeing discovered and restored, new instruments are beeing created in retrospective styles, and (sadly) few instruments really bring innovation or, at least, claim to search for the organ of the 21st century. And we have "organ clearing houses" and some museums, so the number of those horrific "organ pipe bazaars" at the start of building a new instrument and destroying the old one, is decreasing. (In a global view, maybe the latter is compensated by the rising number of churches to be dismantled without finding a purchaser for the old organ in time...)

The answer is a little off-topic here, but it won't be a rebuild in Rostock. The historical layers limit the phantasies, though there is still much room within the case for small additions - "small" in relation to the rest of the instrument...

That would be the typical use of the term in Germany, too. This weakness appears on several new instruments, IMO. Loud reeds are found to be the only way to get a sort of "volume". Producing trumpets which are meant to be in the ACC-style, but are voiced much worse and scaled to narrow, is (hopefully: "was") nearly a fashion here in Germany. Those reeds were loved by some colleagues who tried to walk in the footsteps of Pierre Cocherau when improvising postludes to (mostly catholic) services, and merely walking on the congregations nerves (supposing they were still in the room...! I often experienced the rapid exodus during the final organ music, and the organist, beeing his style's only lover, improvised on and on and on....). But Cochereau knew how to use his shattering chamades, and he had a bunch of other reeds for all other needs. But having one of those aggressive noise generators as the only full-length reed stop on the manuals of an organ, unsuitable for many of the functions a reed stop should serve as, is something, which can be found to often.

That's my instrument! But containing slider chests on baroque soundboards, there is a weak relation to English instruments, too...! Isn't the Tuba mainly (maybe not always) considered to be a Solo stop? I have a certain hope to establish such an instrument here... See its current state on the web - a complete description with images is still on its way, but there is one new image showing the inner layout of the organ. www.marien-musik.de/organs.html

How can you know he would have done? Any records? If you see Oscar W in the light as head of the Wilhelm Sauer workshop, the surrounding for English HP reeds (regarding soundboards, voicing and flue wind pressures) wouldn't be the most accomodating, at least compared with Stahlhuth, or what do you think? Of coures, regarding the "Walcker line", it would have been easier to incorporate those reeds. Thanks for the provided link!

So let's keep it rolling! Thank you, Cynic... Perhaps I missed something, but I think there is no really detailed description of the Magdeburg organ available to me yet. What's the Tuba pressure there, and does it have its own reservoir/chest? What where the construction problems like? (maybe you're not allowed to reveal them...) Occasionally, "hoher Winddruck" (but not explicitely "Hochdruck"= "high pressure" yet) is already talked about in the German scene at divisions with 130mm or little above. The Solo division of the (tracker) organ of St. Stephan Cathedral in Vienna, boasting a cornet V and Trumpets 8' 4', was voiced on 135mm. The stops are usable only for lead or "troppo forte" functions. Those reeds have some "tuba" attitude already, though they are much closer to French reeds than English... For me the qeustion is, how much of the "Tuba" mystery is hidden within the construction details of the shallots and reeds, and how much on the secondary (for me!) aspects of wind, hooded cups and acoustics. By the way, I read in a German forum that warming is an issue with the high pressure wind system of Cologne cathedral. What is known about (and done against) that on the islands? Greetings

Hello! After a longer read-only time and knowing, that some information is spread over other topics, I'd like to ask the organ builders among this community, what they would need as a minimum wind pressure to voice something, which may be called an English (or British...) Tuba...? Greetings

Thanks Friedrich. I've forgotten the Musikverein Organ*), but indeed did not know that Brahms played it with such prominent repertoire. You might know, that some years ago they started thinking about a new organ there, and the project is still going on. And yes, "Es ist das Heil" is much more impressive regarding the study character. I love this attitude of Brahms, which is also in accordance to the upcoming fashion, of accepting that there was great music, too, in earlier times... Greetings *) not the current one - I played it several times during my study time as third or fourth organist of the Vienna RSO. I love to remember the staff of Musikverein Hall, when it came to move the electric console in during the break after the first half of a concert, when the organ was needed just in the second and the console would have taken too much space on the stage in the first one. The guy usually responsible for connecting the console was always on duty with a certain alcohol consumption, and when two or three men pushed the console into the center of the stage, he connected the three multipin sockets, then he stepped onto the crescendo pedal pulling it up until the Tutti (well, you could easily continue talking while hearing it...), then playing one-finger glissandi on each manual over the whole compass and sliding his foot somehow over the pedal, then turning to his buddies and shouting "Geht!" ("Works!")....

I think I am right in saying, that the question of an ideal Brahms organ is still unanswered in Germany. Records of Brahms playing this or that organ, or, definitely praising ore commenting on one, are missing, AFAIK. I think that writing organ music was also sort of "artificial" work for Brahms. I'm just preparing the motet "Schaffe in mir, Gott" and am amazed/amused about his trials to cope with high level contrapuntal art, i. e. the art of JSB, and it might be similar with the organ chorales*. We know that he knew and was interested in older organ music, e. g. he loved to learn about the Buxtehude d-minor chaconne, presented by Spitta. Aside the truth, that he would not regard a "neo-classical spitting machine" as appropriate instrument, I think we are invited to discover the "inner colours" of the compositions and to bring them to life in very different manners, according to the instrument available. *) I love to imagine him checking a completed chorale and saying with a distinct smile: "Nicht so schlecht, glaub' ich..." (Not too bad, I think...)

There is another sentence expressed by Ortgies, which made much more impression to me (but I can't remember if it is part of that thesis or another paper): "Up to the year XXXX (something mid 18th century, can't remember), we have no evidence that ANY certain organ piece has been played at ANY place at ANY time" - I translated it myself, perhaps misleading, but it should say: There's no record that Organist X played his Y piece during his concert/service/audition in Z on date NN. Ortgies wants to make a strong appeal to a higher estimation of the role of improvisation, leaving written music primarily as didactic material. And therefore, it is not really possible - for our views of today - to thouroughly judge the meaning of the keys appearing in the written pieces. His thesis shows more possible reasons for music in remote keys, when I remember it correctly.

Uhh... you mean the anglo-american world? There are some hundreds of very fine instruments of the electric era without divisional pistons, not to mention earlier instruments. From abroad, it looks a little like a system-immanent problem, that a visiting organist expects a certain manner of combinations at an organ. To me, expecting such standard combinations expresses the use of saving preparation time for concerts or services, by the visiting organist as well as by the resident organist, who does not allow the guest to change his pistons. There was much discussion here about sequencers and traditional pistons. Speaking with the words of Albert Schweitzer, who appealed to combine the best of french and german console design, I'd like to find both systems* in one organ, as it does not increase the cost of the combination that much. I'd like to refer to Magdeburg cathedral or Hamburg St. Petri, where this has been done recently. *) To be true, one should speak about THREE systems: German Setzerkombination/Sequenzer, french Appels d'anches, english divisional combinators. It could be done an a modern console of a large organ. But I want to confirm what some have already written here: There should always be an operational mode, i. e. console layout/design, which allows EVERYBODY who has succesfully played any other organ in the world, to start making music immediately, without checking any user's manuals... And for the guests with anglo-american training one could provide that desired "traditional" channel, whatever it should look like, including wewbsite preview... (The electronic keyboard world was succesful in establishing the GM General MIDI standard of tone colours...) Greetings!

Stepping in after a longer time of just watching (or beeing busy), I'd like to point out that many here quickly went from the 1844 Walcker at Schramber to talking about e.g. Berlin Cathedral and other instruments, by Sauer or Walcker, but being some 50, 60 years younger. It is definitely not the same category of organ style. On the other hand, I can agree with most of the comments. Playing a large instrument containing much voicing in the style of the beginning of the 20th century, but having also four newer reed stops (which replaced free reeds in 1982...!! and were intended to add power, using french shallots...), there is a general observation, when guest organists or I myself put (post)Cavaillé-Coll music onto the music desk: The treble is "too flat", I mean, the belcanto style which makes a gain of volume when moving towards the right end on the keyboard (as one would encounter it on a CC instrument with its carefully designed wind pressures), is missing. So, playing Bach on such instruments is maybe still more rewarding than, say, in Notre Dame d P, but it is less rewarding than on a somewhat baroque organ. But when you visited such an instrument, did you try the super ovtave coupler? It offen appears to me like opening the door to the real thing. Clarity and brightness do return (frequently, at least). Regarding Bach on those organs, registrating just the same manner "like anywhere else" really gives poor results.

No Buxtehude autograph of organ music has survived. Any indications of registration or manual changes are added at least by contempary pupils or copyists and are not free of aspects of "fashion" (see J. G. Walthers richly ornamented chorale versions). The Peters Edition shows the version of a 20th century editor. Performance practice of Buxtehude organ music and other composers of his time is still a field of vital discussion and some speculation. A large organ of that period gives you plenty of nice-sounding possibilities...

(At least in many German instruments) One often can found that noise-reducing little pyramids made of (PS?) foam. (Quite often green, too!) The same material is used for cheap sonic modification of recording studios or to fill loudspeaker boxes. The material used in the 60ies has already started to disintegrate - the foam structure crumbles and the the blower inhales the crumbs to transport them to the most far corners of trunking and windchests...

Seems to be a nice layout, even with the borrowings. If it sounds well, too, it should be a nice and expressive instrument. I like the optional third of the mixture. And I agree with Pierre that the Pedal division is sufficient from the Bach point of view, and more would be a move towards North Germany indeed (though, if it would have been affordable, it might have been a gain). The proper acoustic projection of a Hinterwerk depends on the building. E. g., the caseless Oberwerk of the Hamburg Jacobi Schnitger projects perfectly via the archs of the vault and strikes all arguments one can hear in "Orgelbaukunde" about the need of a case for a really good organ (You all know so many other examples). Is there an audio sample available on the web already?

I prefer 769a, too, and played it that order at the last christmas night. For that occasion, which was a more contemplative event with music in the foreground of additional meditations, this order was perfect. It might depend on the character of the player, but I always preferred the manuscript order, because to end the suite with the large stack of lines and notes of the 769 Nr. 5 variation seemed always too "plakativ" to me. As, in my eyes, it is the most learned piece by JSB except the Art of the Fugue, I would think that the IMO more refined details of the manuscript version and its more "reserved" dramaturgy serve it better. But maybe it is a too poetic or, say, mystic approach, because the quiet end moves the piece closer to the transcendency, which seems to shine over Bach's last works in general. This might be a very personal view.

Best wishes to all of this community from me, too! "Deep frozen"... I had my christmas services at 6° Celsius - (which was one degree more than on Dec 23rd, due to the mass of candles and the number of people attending...') I wonder what is the average heating situation in English cathedrals?

Disagree! I'd state that it is just the opposite - no other music does stand so much mistreatment than Bach's - play half-speed, wrong instrumentations, etc etc.... it is (nearly) undestroyable. But try this with any small masters - just lowering the performance input level from 120 to 95% can ruin many compositions into crumbs... I agree on the Beethoven comments, and I had to much Viennese classic during my youth, all Mozat, Schubert and Beethoven mass settings. I admire Mozart's art, but would never place a disk into the player. Beethoven is a choleric guy, but one had to to that job at that period... As a teacher, I will accept to listen to the "Suite gothique" no more - read the music, student, if you like it, and play what is written, it needs not more than that... Best from the Baltic

Great! We really need an instrument of that kind. I'm quite bored of those instruments where you can set up the spec and imagine the sound just by hearing who's gonna build it and how many stops there will be... And thank you, Barry, for starting this topic, it generated much useful information (at least for me). Well, I think the reason that Tubas, or that what they are supposed to be here, become more popular is that one is TIRED from these Chamades by Klais a. o., as most of them make little use - their colour is poor* (just something sharp getting on your nerves, one should call it Bassoon en chamade), and even sound pressure is mostly missing (to refer e. e.g to the Chamades of NDdP before the "Cochereau" voicing was changed - these pipes were at least aggressive and P C knew to handle them... sorry, never heard them live....pcnd will correct me...) So, when a Tuba is ordered in Germany, there is a longing for a reed stop which one really LIKES to draw... In my youth, I tried reeds and after a second I pushed in most of those stops. Later I found the beautiful reeds by Schnitger, sounding fine already without any flue pipe supporting it. And even later I learned about fine reeds from the 19c, which led to the question: Why did they ever accept such bad stops in (Austrian and sometimes German) organs of the 1950's-1980' ???? Best from the Baltic KBK *) Have to confess that I do refer to reeds from 2000 and before, do not know the latest Klais reeds in Cologne and elsewhere (Tuba episcopalis has become a fashionable stop in German cathedrals... Perhaps it's a good idea, if you want to get support from church authorities, to add that "episcopalis" label: Tibia episcopalis, Vox coelestis et episcopalis...

On German instruments of the turn of 19/20th century you will occasionally find a Hornprincipal - sort of overscaled principal...

I love this recording - and as Charles Wooler puts it, the organ accompaniment is great... Have been to WA just once, too little to be able to judge if the balance of organ and choir is "natural" or slightly modified by recording technique, but from this recording one can really learn that 20th-century's English organ is the best organ to accompany a choir. This recording really strengthened my love for Anglican church music. Some of its chants are permanently available on my laptop, and at my new position I've started to adapt the music and the style to German language and am optimistically looking forward to introduce this music to my church. Of course, the level of singing will not be matched, sadly.....

Been off-forum for some time, I want to response to several things here in this thread: First about the Fisk/Lausanne issue: Sorry if it turned out to blame the Fisk team - this was definitely not my aim, owning a recording of the instrument and, while perhaps having some thoughts about the concept, I appreciate the work done there. My target where the CUSTOMERS in general. Those who want to get their organ fine AND fast, with priority on "fast"... this is what I have seen many times... Where did I get the information about the dedication concert from? I thought I know the answer - a research in another forum where it should have been content of a posting by somebody who is well-known (also onboard of this community here) for sustantial information proved, that I am wrong. So there is just one other possible source, but it is on paper and takes some more time to be found. We do all rely on second hand information on many occasions, and knowing, that this here is a sensible case, I made the addition "Please correct me if..." - so you did, and I accept! My apologies for this statement, which a) was never ment against the builders, but narrow and somehow impossible time schedules by customers, and b ) obviously false regarding Lausanne! About off-topic postings: I think I belong to those who keep the topic quite well, and there WAS a certain message to WM in my posting: If you have a _master_ organbuilder and an instrument, where even one single stop raises the desire to hear the complete thing, than it should be heard in advance! If not,...

John's approach is really wonderful - showing his mastership... Because many of us know other stories. Have just been told about a dedication of a restored instrument here in the area (not far away from Magdeburg, Barry - you know, some Schnitger pipes in it...), where the reed stops were not playable. Have read somewhere that the voicers of Fisk attended the dedication concert at Lausanne cathedral to find out in which way they should commence/finish their work (please correct me if it is a bad rumor)... So this is different of John's attitude, putting into use a part which is quite finished to LEARN how to get the best out of the instrument in the final process, and everybody KNOWS about that aim... At many occasions, things were NOT ready, but the congregations where told that they are... Tomorrow evening, the magnificent Stellwagen organ of St Marien Stralsund will be partly re-dedicated (sorry, no details available, was just a short newspaper announcement, but the title is "Ankunft einer Königin" - Arrival Of A Queen...). They did so in Naumburg, Wenzelskirche, too. But these are really milestones of the arrival of queens, and I know about such moments when larger Ahrend restorations or new builds of foremost contemporary masters are "made available" to a small group of experts or people of the fundraising committee etc. I find it very remarkable (and appropriate!!!), that Barry J.'s new organ is maybe already voiced at 80%, but there are seven months left until inauguration! I would like to see projects, where there is time, space and some spare money for trial and error, for installing test ranks/pipes and returning them to the workshop for redesign or replacement, for inventing new mechanisms, but with enough time to check if they really work... [well, times may come to make such a thing happen...] Best wishes from the baltic coast KBK

I'm a native Austrian and a lover of Bruckner's vocal works - but even if beeing patriotic I would have to support the "no"...

Bruckners preserved compositions for organ are thoroughly very poor. They date from his early steps into composing and reflect his high self-criticism, which led him to take endless studies in counterpount and harmony (with Simon Sechter) and to avoid any fresh approaches. He always wanted to have a diploma which would tell himself that he knwo knows how to do it. When he finally played for a jury of the Vienna Conservatory on the Buckow Organ of Maria Treu Church, the leader of the jury said after the exam: "He should have examined us!" Bruckner had high reputation as an improviser. When I'm right, he played a large organ concert in London, where he played Bachs F major Toccata + Fugue, and afterwards an improvisation on that piece! One wonders what it sounded like and which idea there was behind.... The available Bruckner organ compositions are related to his mastership as composer in quite the same manner as Mozart's organ works to Mozart's mastership, where we find reports on great improvising, but relatively poor compositions (beside the works for automatic organs).