Lausanne

The A pipe tuned to 440Hz at 20°C will change by about 0.8Hz (0.781) per °C. In practice tuning problems related to heating are usually caused by unstable air conditions. Either the air temperature is changing (as a heater comes on) or there is a stream of air moving across certain pipes because the heated air is only coming from one direction. In this case, tuning anything other than the reeds during the heating period should be avoided if possible. Of course if there is a constant temperature difference between one division and another caused by the heating, it is possible to tune them together, but the 'heated' division will require tuning back when the heat is off. The full tune should really only be done during the time of year when the temperature in the building is the same as outside and there are no air currents anywhere near the organ. Organs are usually built so as to limit the unstable air caused by heating, but many organs predate the heating system they now have to contend with.

..." Are any full ranks of labial pipes still extant? I know that in the past there used to be one or two labial oboes and clarinets around, but I wonder if have these succumbed to modernisation." Perhaps the most famous labial 'reed' pipe in the Uk is the Echo Oboe in the Schulze Organ at Armley. They are quite rare though, so perhaps we ought to start an endangered species list. A copy of the Armley pipe was made by Abbott & Smith for inclusion in Leeds Parish Church. Both originally spoke on only 1.5" wind, but Binns increased this at Armley to 1 7/8" as his pneumatic action needed at least this pressure. At the Parish Church Harrison & Harrison moved the Echo division in 1913 to become the altar organ and increased the pressure to 3". It is likely that the echo oboe would not have coped with such an increase in pressure and there is no record of it in the NPOR-listed survey of 1948.

More expletives than superlatives I think!

And they are looking after and restoring in stages, the 3 manual Binns (within a Father Smith Case) in St. Mary's Parish Church Hadleigh in Suffolk (my sister's church). I hope they are to remove the neo-baroque additions they made to the Choir in the seventies.

It is good to know that the pipes removed in 1973 were not all discarded. I have tracked down the name of the person who owned the Aeolian organ. It was Charles Deering an American millionaire and art collector who had an Aeolian residence organ in his summer home in Sitges (El Palau Mar i Cel) that he bought and enlarged in 1912 (the building not the organ). He died in 1927 and so it was most probably his wife Marion Denison Deering who donated the organ to the Cathedral. The Organ Archives at Princeton are currently looking up the opus number for an original specification, but I suspect Aeolian enlarged it when they installed it in the Cathedral in 1929.

This sort of pressure ratio of roughly twice the 'normal' pressure for a high pressure stop was quite common for many British builders too Pierre (Bishop & Son etc), certainly for organs in Parish churches and smaller. However the Sauer organ mentioned seems to be in quite a large building, so perhaps the effect of that high pressure Tuba would not be quite as Mirabilis as some British examples in a similar acoustic. Can we assume that by 'Link' you mean the Organ builder rather than 'connection'?

Sorry to keep this thread going, but I'm fascinated as to how a Spanish Cathedral ended up with an AEolian residence organ behind a sixteenth century case. Could you, French amateur, perhaps push your friend for a few more details, such as the name of the rich Americans who donated the organ? I am in contact with someone in the States who has the complete opus list of Aeolian (and many other US builders), so we might be able to track down the original specification. There were many of these organs exported all over the world including 5 to Spain (3 to Madrid and 2 to Barcelona). Only four actually arrived as one of the Barcelona-bound AEolians resides at the bottom of the Atlantic courtesy of a German U-boat. An organist friend of mine is going to Barcelona next week and I have asked him to see what he can find out about the Tarragona Organ. Still no reply from Verschueren, perhaps they've all gone to Barcelona. David

No wonder I couldn't find any trace of an organ building firm called Edian, this is just the result of a Spanish journalist trying to make sense of the word AEolian, particularly as the A is often linked to the E. I think the idea that the organ was 'centenario', or a hundred years old, is also a red herring. If it was an Aeolian organ it couldn't be older than 1883 and as it was installed at Tarragona in 1929, it is unlikely to have anything to do with Ernest Skinner as he only acquired Aeolian in 1931.

That all seems to fit with the quote from the organist in the local newspaper (2005): CAMBIOS DESAFORTUNADOS / Jordi Vergés, organista de la catedral de Tarragona, concertista y profesor del conservatorio, explica que el instrumento ha sufrido cambios desafortunados. «En 1929, fue sustituido por un órgano centenario de la fábrica Edian que un financiero norteamericano conservaba en la casa de Mar i Cel de Sitges». En 1973, la Organería Española sustituyó los tubos instalados por la firma Edian, pero no se hicieron a medida. Esta cuestión técnica «impide invitar a grandes concertistas porque el sonido del órganos es el reflejo de tanto disparate junto», lamenta Vergés. Sólo durante la guerra civil se perdieron más de 1.000 órganos debido a la quema de iglesias. Tampoco se conserva música catalana sacra del XVI para órgano. I have not yet found any information about the firm Edian. The text suggests that the organ was already a hundred years old when the north American (un financiero is masculine, but perhaps the husband of the 'rich american lady') donated it to the Cathedral. They had kept the organ at their house in Sitges, I assume this was a large house. The 1973 work left the organ in such a poor condition that it was not possible to invite recitalist to play on it. Putting a Dutch baroque organ behind a Spanish case may be just as odd as having a romantic or symphonic style organ behind one. The Spanish organ builders will be as annoyed with Vergés as the Swiss were with the Lausanne Cathedral Organist when he chose Fisk. However, having a variety of instruments in any one region is healthy for organ music, but you might have thought that such an historic organ case might have merited a Spanish Organ. The Dutch may well be recreating something with a Spanish flavour, but even if they do send the specification, we shall just have to wait to hear the result.

Yes, in attempting to make a copy of an organ pipe, the builder would have to consider the soundboard construction, or at the very least, whether the pipes were winded from a groove (slider and pallet) or an individual valve. There are many varieties of the latter, but most tend to make the pipe speak more abruptly than the traditional slider and pallet. The actions used by Compton (several types) and Wurlitzer are not really all that different and mainly in the 'abrupt' wind category. Some pipes, like the Bourdon, don't like abrupt wind and often builders using these sort of actions have had to add extra chambers or grooves between the valve and the pipe. The difference between the action types is particularly noticed with low wind pressure. As Pierre mentioned, on the continent during the last century many organs have been built with taschenladen membrane valves, but on the same pressures (around 75mm - 95mm) as the slider and pallet. I have seen several taschenladen rebuilds using pipes originally voiced on the slider and pallet action, and it seemed that only the wood pipes had required changes to their upper lip, probably to prevent them sounding the octave. Of course, some pipes prefer the abrupt winding, reeds particularly like a good old kick up the boot (? - well, you know what I mean) and it is for this reason that they are usually positioned directly above the pallet in a slider and pallet soundboard. With the ultra low pressures typical in early Spanish organs (50mm), this was essential, but with the pallets usually being at the front of the organ, this meant that tuning the reeds was only possible if they stuck through the case and so Chamades were born. Well that's one theory anyway.

So actually it will be at least the second US organ (Hook and now Skinner). Each of these organs along with the Binns you gave a link to have had the German treatment of their casework, but perhaps just so they look better within the various buildings where they seem to have been given pride of place. In Britain there has been a tradition of hiding the organ in a broom cupboard, for fear it might disturb those of a delicate disposition.

If it is possible, could you correct the spelling of the title of this thread, in case anybody else is using the internet (!). Although given the state of this historic organ, perhaps Tara-gonna is quite appropriate.

I couldn't agree more, I only hope that certain organ advisers (many self-appointed) read and understand these comments. The noise machine trend causes problems in other countries too. The Van den Heuvel in Victoria Hall Geneva is hopeless at accompanying the many choral works that are becoming more popular, particularly as the locals are slowly moving on in their appreciation of other music written after J.S. Bach. Still more than 80% of all classical music concerts in Switzerland, including organ concerts, have to be baroque music.

I did not ask for a 'calculation' of the costs as the figure seems reasonable for a new Cathedral organ, and it has nothing to do with me, it is not my project. The use of the word 'restoration' can cover a whole range of work, from a straight forward clean and repair of what exists, to an almost completely new organ with just a few ranks of original pipework revoiced to how some 'expert' says they should sound.

Searching in Spanish reveals a bit more, but not much. A blog from some politician was complaining about the costs (which will mainly come from the State) and he had heard, much to his annoyance, that there were plans to build a new organ rather than to restore the original. He was obviously not aware that almost nothing of the original exists and there are no written records of what that consisted of. There was an article in the local Catalan press in 2005 which spoke of the 1.2 million Euro project to 'restore' the organ. Jordi Vergés the organist explained that there had been many unfortunate changes to the organ since 1563 (not surprising really). The most 'unfortunate' was the complete replacement of what was left of the organ in 1929 (apart from the facade) by the company 'Edian'. There was then some attempt in 1973 to replace some of these ranks with those more in keeping with the style suggested by the casework. Looking on the bright side, Mr Vergés did remind us that around 1000 organs were completely destroyed during the Civil War, so to have any part of an organ from the 16th century in Spain was remarkable. One of the priests at the Cathedral was quoted as having said that their organ was like a beautiful cage, but the bird inside didn't sing. As Mr Vergés had lessons from many Dutch organists according to his CV, this may explain the choice of builder. I have asked the Dutch builders to send a copy of their specification, so we shall see. The organ is to be finished by 2010.

This thread touches on some technical areas that many organ builders know about through experience rather than actual scientific study, although I would agree that the results are in the hearing of the finished pipes. However, I have been prompted into offering a few insights into the subject of metallurgy, but I can't promise to either enlighten or convince anyone. For those of you who have a copy of the Pb-Sn phase diagram, now would be a good time to get it out! It is more usual to speak of metal 'atoms' rather than molecules, but any group of two or more atoms either the same or different may be called a molecule. When molten lead solidifies the atoms will try to pack together in the closest way possible and do so in a very regular way, leading to a crystalline structure known as 'face centred closest packed' or FCC. Tin atoms prefer to stick together in a tetragonal form. Solidification occurs in these 'pure' metals at various points in the melt at the same time called nucleation points. The crystal structure grows out from this point until it coincides with another region or 'grain' at which a grain boundary is formed. The size of these grains depends on several factors, but the rate of cooling is an important one. Generally the slower the cooling the larger the grains. As the grain boundaries prevent dislocations moving through the material (when a line of atoms slips over another responding to an external force such as the metal being bent) the larger the grains the more malleable the metal. The atoms of lead are slightly larger than those of tin (1.75 Angstrom as opposed to 1.58), but tend to coexist in the Lead-Tin alloy by the one atom substituting the other, but only up to certain proportions. On a sheet of spotted metal (between 45 and 55% tin in lead approx.) we can see definite areas of white and black. These are called phases, the darker phase contains around 19% tin in lead and the lighter phase contains around 97% tin in lead. For many compositions of the two metals these phases are too small to be seen by the naked eye and when the darker phase is in the majority the metal appears quite dark (after a period of oxidation, as a fresh surface of lead is as shiny as Tin) and when the lighter phase wins the metal looks bright and shiny. For compositions other than the eutectic (61.9%Tin), one phase will start to solidify before the other; but at the eutectic, both phases solidify at the same temperature (183°C). The question of cooling rate during casting is a complex one, but in general, the quicker the cooling, the smaller the grain structure and the 'harder' the metal will be. Hardness is the resistance of a material to penetration and is often confused with strength, and toughness. This 'harder' pipe metal will most likely be weaker and more brittle than a softer one. In order to know how sand casting differs from that on a cotton covered stone etc. we need to know the thermal conductivity of all the materials, their thickness, the rate of 'pouring' through the slit of the trough (gauge) and the size of the slit. As well as the air temperature and exact chemical composition of the metal. The casting sand is no doubt a mixture of many chemicals, it usually contains motor oil, clay, and various ingredients to assist casting and to stop sand sticking to the metal. It may even contain water, but the effect of the steam generated beneath the molten metal may lead to undesirable, often explosive, effects. Interestingly, the thermal conductivity of sand is the same as paper, oil, acrylic and nylon and close to that of cotton, it would only be more heat conductive if it had water in it. A slab of York stone or slate would have a higher conductivity and assuming the cotton and other materials were quite thin, it would play a major role in conducting heat away from the metal rather better than sand. If we assume though, that sand casting does cool the melt quicker than other methods, it is possible that for the same composition, thickness and pouring rate, the resulting metal will be harder. DW's point about hardening being mainly achieved through the addition of other elements is quite valid. Anything that prevents the movement of a dislocation in the metal lattice will 'harden' the metal. That may be a defect, a foreign atom or a grain boundary. I might add that, unlike some iron based alloys, the Lead-Tin alloy does not work harden, that is, beating it with a hammer would only have the effect of eliminating some of the porosity in the metal, which would generally make the metal less likely to crack. The action of machining the metal will create some localised melting and then rapid recrystallisation, but only hardening within the surface region. So, does a pipe made of a harder metal make a different sound? Well yes it does if you hit it with a hammer (please don't!). But then we are dealing with organ pipes, rather than tubular bells; it is the air in the pipe that produces the sound. In order for the sound wave to be stable enough to support harmonics of ever decreasing energy there must be as little damping by the pipe as possible. Damping is when the pipe absorbs the energy in the vibrating air, but does not vibrate in such a way as to reinforce the driving frequency. Sound energy is very low compared to other forms we detect, our ears are remarkably sensitive to it, so it doesn't take much movement or deformation of the pipe to kill some of it. The actual resonant frequency of the pipe body is usually lower than the fundamental of the vibrating air column inside in all but the lowest pipes. Organists will have probably found an 8' pipe or larger rattling away, but these noises are usually dealt with by correctly supporting the pipe or adding some absorbent material at a strategic point. Several organ builders have remarked (mainly US sources on the internet) that high lead content pipes support the fundamental note better than high tin pipes, yet the latter are better at supporting the upper harmonics. However, we need to couple the crucial pipe wall thickness as well as the pipe's elasticity index. The hardness we are speaking about should be seen as the ability of the material to deform in a temporary way (elastic) or permanent way (plastic). Materials exhibit a mixture of the two. A pipe whose wall is too thin, even if made of hard metal, may not produce the required sound. In conclusion, for those brave souls who have put up with my 'physics lecture', as the ability of a pipe to support harmonics in the vibrating air column it contains depends on MANY factors and given that any form of casting can produce metal of exactly the same 'hardness' if other parameters are changed, it is NOT necessary to start using sand casting in order to make pipes sound exactly as they did in the 18th century. Sand casting of plain sheet metal is technologically inferior to the present methods for all sorts of reasons. But if you don't own a stone casting bed, then it may well be cheaper to fill your back yard with sand!! I do not doubt that the pipes made from sand cast metal did sound very good, but how was the comparison made exactly? If two batches of metal with the same composition were cast using two different methods producing two different microstructures and then made and voiced in exactly the same way, the resulting sound may well have been slightly different. That does not prove that sand casting is better, it might show that for a certain type of pipe, a harder metal is better, but that may be produced by a range of casting methods. Parts of the above have been simplified and may have lost scientific credibility in the process, so quoting out of context may lead to confusion, something that this forum has taken to a high art, but often in an entertaining way! I gleaned what little I know about Metallurgy from the department of the same name at Cambridge and knew Dr Charles, mentioned by DW, as he spent so long in our department we believed he was a member of staff, but perhaps he really did belong in the Chemistry department. A well respected academic in any case.

You might also try Beyerdynamic DT 531. Although there is no doubt a new model. I've had mine for 13 years and they are just right for organ music with a fabulous bass response. They cover the ears too, so as well as keeping out draughts, Mrs Bordun shouldn't be disturbed. I can't remember the price I paid for them, but they were worth it. The only negative point is that I have recently had to replace the foam rubber in them. The price listed on the web for similar current models is less than it was 13 years ago! Check here.

There have been quite a few consoles with illuminated stop buttons on the continent in the last 20 years. The main complaint is that you have to make the same action to turn the stop on as you do to turn it off, and really need to look to find the stop. Often they are placed far too close together. So as well as the fact that Organists are used to using drawstops or tabs, the illuminated buttons have several ergonomic problems. Quite apart from looking ugly (well the ones I've seen so far).

Quite right, I was mixing up the 9th harmonic with the 9th upper partial.

I think it's in the Bela Bartok Concert Hall of Hungary's Academy of Music, otherwise known as the Palace of Arts, in Budapest. The place is often referred to as MUPA, which I think comes from Muveszetek Palotaja, which in my reckoning should mean Palace of Music, but then again... The organ spec is here, scroll down to the last of the three organs listed: MUPA organ, It doesn't say who built it, someone out there will know, but note the 'Septnon' a septième and ninth, giving a difference tone of a fifth (I think? ). David

Well, I almost got it Pierre! Not sure I was any closer than you though.

If you're thinking of the builder based in Genova with whom Tamburini did his apprenticeship, the name I thought was Tice. Although, Price does sound much more English, so perhaps 'Tice' was a spelling mistake that has found it's way into the articles I've read.

Ooooh! You're playing with fire on that one! Glad you liked your new name, it's just easier to type.

And one Lewis Organ escaped, or went on holiday, to Salerno near Naples! Lewis in Italy Originally built for the music salon of Mrs Eley in London, it was acquired in 1902 by a Methodist Church in Nottingham and used until the 1970s. It was finally rescued by Emanuele Cardi, the organist at San Gregorio VII in Battipaglia, near Salerno. He was keen to have an organ on which he could play French romantic organ music and this Lewis was built in the style of Cavaillé-Coll - but being a house organ, I imagine it is a little quieter than you might expect. I was glad to hear that at least some Italian organists yearn to be allowed out of the baroque school from time to time. It is now listed by the Campania Organists' Society as one of their featured organs, is used in many recitals and an annual Organ Festival/Competition.

Dear Spot, By full ranks, you can't be thinking that pipes that are 2.4mm long (imaginary top C in a 1/4' rank) would first, be possible to manufacture, and second, make any audible sound if they were. You may well have heard an increasing frequency when holding middle C and adding each of these mutation ranks, but I venture to suggest that if you held any C above this and repeated the sequence the very top frequency would be the same, but because the fundamental was higher than the C below, your ear would be tricked (to use your words) into thinking everything was getting higher. However, if you show me a photo of the complete ranks at 1/2,1/3 & 1/4' I'll believe you, honest. Whether UK organ builders should be learning from an Italian organ of 1750 sounds a bit cheeky. The majority of UK builders have a wide experience of different styles of building and a profound historical knowledge. Most have spent much time playing, inspecting and often measuring organ pipes around the world. Of all the European countries we seem to have been the most open to new ideas. We have had builders who made pipes in the French, German, Dutch and English style and a few recent examples of Italian style building when a customer has so desired. You'd be hard pressed, though, to find French organ builders using pipes made in the German style and probably vice versa. No doubt Pierre would know of several exceptions to that idea. Since WWII the Italian organs of three manuals and above have looked towards the UK and US for inspiration. There is just so much you can do vertically, but if you wish for a variety of sound, creating pipes that develop there own subtle set of harmonics offers more musical flexibility. Many of the Italian and French classical style organs that have been built for churches whose primary use is supporting congregational singing fail because, although you might be able to just hear the direction of the music over the singing, the overall musical effect is poor. I often hear local organists going on about how the cornet was designed to pick out the melody in a Bach chorale and so they then use the same registration to lead hymns. Fine if you're teaching them a new tune, but if the aim is a combined musical offering to God, the traditional English Diapason chorus is far better at supporting and blending with congregational singing. God of course, wouldn't dream of making a choice between the two, they're all just fine. On my Septième search I came across two fascinating web sites that are worth a look, one is of a young organist and includes a large selection of the organs he has played with photos and descriptions: Giuseppe Distaso and the other is a site dedicated to the massive Tamburini organ (12,278 pipes, 159 stops) in San Giovanni di Bosco in Bologna: Tamburini Organ in Bologna Regards, David