peter ellis Posted Monday at 12:27 Share Posted Monday at 12:27 Can anyone recommend some existing specifications to look at. Parameters are 1. two manuals 2. able to give a beefy accompaniment to a full congregation in a relatively dead acoustic 3. extensions allowed (within reason) Thanks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsoff Posted Monday at 14:21 Share Posted Monday at 14:21 This organ in Stratford-upon-Avon is regarded, rightly in my view, as being able to fulfil most requirements in this rather dead acoustic. There may be a fair amount of extension but space in the chapel's west end tower is limited. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsphead Posted Tuesday at 06:25 Share Posted Tuesday at 06:25 So many to choose from depending on your choice of flavours. How about Malmesbury Abbey, St Mary Bridgnorth, St Nicholas Kings Lynn, St Mary Little Walsingham, St George Letchworth, University of Sussex meeting house, Farnborough Abbey, St Nicholas Gosforth or for 2 manuals +1 St Mary Beaminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowland Wateridge Posted Tuesday at 09:38 Share Posted Tuesday at 09:38 I immediately thought of Farnborough Abbey (C-C/ Mutin) and the ‘Father Willis on Wheels’ at St Paul’s Cathedral, but not sure whether “a relatively dead acoustic” also applied to nominated instruments. Farnborough and, of course, St Paul’s are very reverberant, although I think these two outstanding instruments would still meet PE’s challenge. https://npor.org.uk/survey/N08452 https://npor.org.uk/survey/N13153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted Tuesday at 12:31 Share Posted Tuesday at 12:31 Two relatively-recent two-manual instruments come to mind but both are in rather generous acoustics; neither has any extension. This is the Swiss Church in Covent Garden, London: https://npor.org.uk/survey/K01057 and this is St Paul, Wightman Road, Harringay, London: https://npor.org.uk/survey/D03435 Unsurprisingly the Späth in Covent Garden has a more Central European feel to it (although having a chorus reed in a swell box and a sub-8ve coupler allows for quite romantic sounds); the Bower in Harringay certainly feels and sounds more English albeit with no reeds. Both are in excellent West-End gallery positions with beautifully responsive and light actions and both have enough “heft” to lead hearty congregations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter ellis Posted Tuesday at 13:14 Author Share Posted Tuesday at 13:14 Thanks all - and keep them coming. I’m working with an instrument that could be hugely improved with a bit of cosmetic attention and light tonal alterations - I’m just doing my background research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarber49 Posted Tuesday at 13:21 Share Posted Tuesday at 13:21 The Tickell in St Mary-le-Bow, London, or the smaller one in Oakham Parish Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
father-willis Posted Tuesday at 14:08 Share Posted Tuesday at 14:08 I see that I have been beaten to mentioning this one, but it's good: https://npor.org.uk/survey/N06436 I also very much like Oakham Parish Church, also mentioned above: https://npor.org.uk/survey/D02710 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P DeVile Posted Tuesday at 18:17 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:17 https://npor.org.uk/survey/N03065 A wonderful Binns - mini cathedral sound! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrabombarde Posted Tuesday at 22:04 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:04 The first organ listed above reminded me of this somewhat similar rebuild by the same builder, and a new mechanical action. Not many stops, but enlarged from a fine turn of the century local builder I found it punched above its weight and has an absolutely beautiful action: https://npor.org.uk/survey/E01563 This odd little instrument with different actions to each keyboard is in rather sore need of restoration and rebuild after a cut price post-war job, but has a surprisingly bold Swell: https://npor.org.uk/survey/N07367 Anyone familiar with Hauptwerk will have encountered this organ as the default sample set. Again, bold and versatile and on the big side for a two manual: https://npor.org.uk/survey/N00645 Finally, for an account by one of our leading organ advisors on how to get the best from a two manual organ (including an example of a fully adjustable MECHANICAL combination action!) do see this recent review by Paul Hale: https://paulhale.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ph17-06.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Cooke Posted Wednesday at 06:23 Share Posted Wednesday at 06:23 A very interesting thread, this - many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeChap Posted Wednesday at 17:19 Share Posted Wednesday at 17:19 I've not actually played this one (it's not been installed yet!) But the Binns that Nicholsons are currently transplanting from Glasgow to Dedham is 2-man and looking very promising. https://www.nicholsonorgans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/website-spec-dedham.pdf I do like a Binns and have good memories of them in dry acoustics (eg Christchurch Linthwaite, Nottingham Albert Hall - both bigger though). Trying to stick to organs I've actually played then .... I was really impressed with the new Flentrop in Sidney Sussex Chapel, Cambridge - now there's a dry acoustic for you and the Flentrop sounds so warm and clear in there. https://npor.org.uk/survey/K01359 In the interests of balance I should mention the other place and another excellent 2-man in a very dry acoustic is Pembroke College Oxford - https://npor.org.uk/survey/D01920 I also loved the Vincent Woodstock in Fotheringhay - https://npor.org.uk/survey/D08348 OK I'd better stop, but one last one that's probably not on peoples' radar is the very small and charming Nigel Church organ on the west gallery of St Giles' Sandiacre, only 10 stops but a gem, again in a very dry acoustic. I'm a fan of Nigel Church's work, as my previous postings will no doubt show; https://npor.org.uk/survey/N05355 - the key to success here is an enclosed Great organ and very very gentle voicing. So many to choose from! SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeChap Posted Wednesday at 19:11 Share Posted Wednesday at 19:11 ... oh but I was forgetting the wonderful TC Lewis organs in Studley Royal and Cullercoats, both meticulously restored by Harrisons ... ... and I presume it's no help mentioning Arnstadt, Altenburg Schlosskapelle, Innsbruck Hofkapelle, Noordbroek, Cappel, Frideriksborg ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrabombarde Posted Wednesday at 20:33 Share Posted Wednesday at 20:33 3 hours ago, SomeChap said: I was really impressed with the new Flentrop in Sidney Sussex Chapel, Cambridge - now there's a dry acoustic for you and the Flentrop sounds so warm and clear in there. https://npor.org.uk/survey/K01359 A complete digression I know, but by what system of stop nomenclature could that organ possibly have a Quintfluit 3 on the Great and a Nasard 2 2/3 on the Swell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
father-willis Posted Thursday at 07:31 Share Posted Thursday at 07:31 On 25/06/2024 at 20:17, P DeVile said: https://npor.org.uk/survey/N03065 A wonderful Binns - mini cathedral sound! What a remarkable spec. for a two manual instrument. Not only the on paper stoplist but if you know Binns, then you know the sound. From my armchair I do find it interesting that as complete as this is a pedal reed is omitted, for what ever reason. It may be space but given that there are other large ranks present I wonder why no reed. And it is not just here; many substantial two, and even three, manual organs have almost everything but a pedal reed. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
father-willis Posted Thursday at 07:42 Share Posted Thursday at 07:42 An organ with a decent spec. on two mans & ped or the same number of stops over three mans & ped - opinions? Mention of the Lewis examples above again brought to mind this: https://npor.org.uk/survey/N10959 a very clever and interesting unaltered TCL organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bam Posted Thursday at 09:28 Share Posted Thursday at 09:28 I like this one a lot....... https://npor.org.uk/survey/N03674 Re the Guild Chapel at Stratford-on-Avon, is it really tracker as listed by NPOR? With a detached console I'm pretty sure that it is EP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Pykett Posted Thursday at 09:52 Share Posted Thursday at 09:52 The little Frobenius at the east end of Lancing College chapel, W Sussex. Utterly ravishing, to the extent I had to be prised off it the last time I played it! https://npor.org.uk/survey/N09169 Perfect mechanical action, perfectly sited acoustically so that it fills this big space. But if you need more you can play the big west end 4-decker from it electrically (though I found the latter considerably less attractive than the Frobenius for many reasons). Far more eclectically-capable than it might look on paper. Apologies if someone else has mentioned it above - so many instruments have now been mentioned that I might have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Pykett Posted Thursday at 10:35 Share Posted Thursday at 10:35 Here's another, quite different, but equally ravishing example to compare with the Frobenius at Lancing. St John's, Weymouth, Harrison 1927. I think it's been in their care ever since and has an Historic Organs certificate from BIOS. https://npor.org.uk/survey/N10008 Like the Frobenius I mentioned above, the stop list on paper alone gives little clue as to how versatile it is. I played it at a wedding where, at the rehearsal, the couple and their family chose Widor's Toccata among other items. The bride-to-be's father was almost in tears after hearing it (no, I don't think I had played it quite that badly), and thereafter he was a total convert to the organ, installing one in his house not long afterwards. It was surprising that in a piece like that you almost don't miss the lack of a pedal reed somehow. Like the Frobenius, it was perfectly matched to the acoustic of the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsoff Posted Thursday at 11:56 Share Posted Thursday at 11:56 2 hours ago, bam said: I like this one a lot....... https://npor.org.uk/survey/N03674 Re the Guild Chapel at Stratford-on-Avon, is it really tracker as listed by NPOR? With a detached console I'm pretty sure that it is EP. I learned to play on a previous incarnation of this organ in the 1960s and it was not tracker at that time but EP. The current organ has, I think, fully electric action and the detached console can be moved to the East end of the chapel for recitals to allow the audience watch the organist perform. I did speak to Geoffrey Coffin during the work on the organ and he did say that he would have liked to use mechanical action but practical difficulties around the position of the console along with severe planning restrictions in such an ancient building precluded it. I can't find a clip of the organ at a recital but here is an example of it accompanying a choir. The console is behind the camera to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Pykett Posted Thursday at 16:38 Share Posted Thursday at 16:38 Sorry, me again. I'm slightly cautious about mentioning this one because another member of this forum is the titulaire at this church. However since he very kindly invited me to play it, I'm going to draw attention to it in case he might be too modest to do so. St John's, Westbourne, W Sussex. Tickell, 2001. https://npor.org.uk/survey/R00477 I'll say no more beyond that the swell Open Diapason only goes down to tenor C, employing a helper arrangement below that with no pipes longer than 4' speaking length. This is so successful that you absolutely cannot 'hear the join' as you descend into the bottom octave. Far better than just grooving the bass notes into a stopped flute as so many lesser builders would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrabombarde Posted Thursday at 21:29 Share Posted Thursday at 21:29 I suppose someone had to mention it....one might wonder if someone was planning a four manual 70 something stop cathedral instrument only to find the money ran out after completing the Swell and Great but no, this was designed as a 40 stop two manual mechanical action organ complete with bells and a 32 foot reed! https://www.orgelfreunde-waltrop.de/sauerorgel.php And someone clearly having fun with it: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted Thursday at 22:08 Share Posted Thursday at 22:08 5 hours ago, Colin Pykett said: Sorry, me again. I'm slightly cautious about mentioning this one because another member of this forum is the titulaire at this church. However since he very kindly invited me to play it, I'm going to draw attention to it in case he might be too modest to do so. St John's, Westbourne, W Sussex. Tickell, 2001. https://npor.org.uk/survey/R00477 I'll say no more beyond that the swell Open Diapason only goes down to tenor C, employing a helper arrangement below that with no pipes longer than 4' speaking length. This is so successful that you absolutely cannot 'hear the join' as you descend into the bottom octave. Far better than just grooving the bass notes into a stopped flute as so many lesser builders would have done. I must have looked at this on paper at some point in the last 20 years but I had completely forgotten it. It seems to have been designed with such care. Thank you for reminding us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Pykett Posted 22 hours ago Share Posted 22 hours ago Yet another - like the previous three on here from me, I've actually played them all and in some cases at services too, so they've stuck in my memory as very fine and serviceable instruments in my estimation. You will note that they are all by top flight builders (Frobenius, Harrison, Tickell and - this one - Hill, Norman and Beard). St George's, Dunster, Somerset (on the edge of Exmoor) Hill, Norman & Beard, 1962 https://npor.org.uk/survey/N05562 This is somewhat of its time, the mid-20th century. In a few words I can best describe this organ as perhaps like a two manual version of the Royal Festival Hall organ - maybe trying to be just a bit too eclectic, but no cavils about using electric action, detached console and a bit of extension and borrowing (though there isn't too much here). Oh, and a stop key console! The OP was interested in a beefy sound, and this instrument can certainly provide that when needed, especially with the subs and supers all over the place. And that's before you give into temptation and use the Trompette en Chamade! But it also has a wealth of quiet colour available as well. But when I first came across it in 1980 I was pretty much swept away by it and have remained so. So much so that I simulated it in my virtual pipe organ at home where I've had years of pleasure from it since. If you fancy a short break down to Exmoor why not pop in and have a look? HN&B at their very best in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeChap Posted 19 hours ago Share Posted 19 hours ago A slightly more careful reading of the original poster Peter's contributions than my previous attempt suggests that what he is really looking for is two-manual instruments which have been successfully rebuilt / augmented for congregational / parish work. A firm I do know has done a great deal of 'updating' two manual parish organs in the UK is Henry Groves of Nottingham, often under the advice of Paul Hale whose article is linked above, often within tight budgets and often not fighting shy of extension. Their 'rebuilds' page is here with, lots of samples of their recent work, and two that caught my eye as being relevant to this thread might be the Quorn and Newnham rebuilds, among numerous others. A few caveats: Groves often use non-standard winding architectures, direct electric mechanism and computer controllers to save huge amounts of physical space and achieve flexible and accessible internal layouts in their rebuilds. These are innovative, but therefore inevitably have not really been through the test of time, and they may not be available in Australia (where I think Peter is based). Many of their 'rebuilds' are almost new organs but with old pipework. I've never played a Groves organ or rebuild, so I have no idea how 'good' they are (perhaps other members have direct experience?). Also I am very aware that some here consider such updating to be mutilation. Also, while I defer to our kind hosts, their recent work does not seem to be documented very extensively on this site at the moment, so I'm not yet very familiar with their contribution in this area (if anyone does have examples to share then do please step in and fill the gap, as I'm sure it would be of interest). And other excellent organ builders are of course available! With all that said, Groves's work does appear prima facie to be a constructive match with what Peter was asking to be shown, so I hope the links above help. SC ---- [tl:dr: maybe look into Henry Groves's 2-man rebuilds, but this isn't an advert!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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