Worcester Cathedral

[bombarde32]

I completly agree with this excellent post - in my opinion the days have happily gone when each 'cathedral-type' organ is a clone of the one 50 miles to the west/south/east/north, with or without the 32' reed and choice of Party-Horn (Tuba Magna/Miribilis/etc.etc) as funds/space permit.

 

The REAL challenge comes from an organist (example Clive Driskell-Smith, a week ago in Evensong) accompaning (beautifully) the Bairstow Blessed City on the Rieger of Christ Church Cathedral Oxford. A difficult organ, for sure, for this repertoire, but an outstanding performance, none the less!

 

You can keep your clones!

[Pierre Lauwers]

I agree for avoiding clones, but the question is: do we drop one

kind of clones for another one ?

There are things that might seem original there, but are actually

quite common elsewhere.

And reversely !

 

Pierre

[contraviolone]

Perhaps we should also say that Germany and France do not have our choral heritage? I'd much rather have, as Mark says, some dreadfully bad, dull and completely confused organs (tho I would call the likes of Salisbury, Lincoln, Durham and many others quite the opposite) alongside our tradition of choral evensong and eucharists, than some wonderful recital instruments in our Cathedrals with woeful liturgy and congregational services!

 

I did not wish, of course, to infer any detrimental view to our very fine English choral tradition, which is without doubt the finest in the world. By all means have suitable accompanymental back-up to this tradition, although I have found that the finest choirs barely need any accompanyment when performing (the beauty of a superb choir singing unaccompanyed is an unmatchable experience, IMHO). I am simply suggesting that many English Organs are compromised in their dual roles. 'Dualism' invariably always leads to weakness, not only in the case of Organs as musical instruments, but in life generally.

 

Here we have a splendid summary of the "british patient" case

 

You need to drop the term 'British' Pierre. I am specifically discussing English Organs and the English choral tradition.

[Colin Harvey]

You need to drop the term 'British' Pierre. I am specifically discussing English Organs and the English choral tradition.

 

Just to split hairs even further to a yet more unecessarily pendantic level than displayed here, this does the Choral foundations of the Cathedrals of St. Davids, Belfast, Dublin, Edinburgh and many other foundations besides a disservice. Pierre is right - British is the correct term.

 

The "finest choirs" need an organ for accompaniment: the organ part is not necessarily there to support the singers, as is often the case with lesser choirs, but to provide its own part in the music making. Without an organ, large parts of the choral repertoire can only recieve a partial performance.

 

I feel your assertion that an organ is compromised by having to fulfil a number of roles needs further verification. These roles are not mutually exclusive: A successful organ with a cohesive musical structure can turn its hand to a number of roles, either as a solo instrument and/or as an accompanimental instrument. There are plenty of examples all around us. I suspect the point you are trying to make here is the problem of placing an organ in a large cathedral so it projects into the necessary spaces to serve both roles successfully to congregations and audiences in different parts of the building.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"The "finest choirs" need an organ for accompaniment: the organ part is not necessarily there to support the singers, as is often the case with lesser choirs, but to provide its own part in the music making. Without an organ, large parts of the choral repertoire can only recieve a partial performance.

 

I feel your assertion that an organ is compromised by having to fulfil a number of roles needs further verification. These roles are not mutually exclusive: A successful organ with a cohesive musical structure can turn its hand to a number of roles, either as a solo instrument and/or as an accompanimental instrument."

(Quote)

 

And here we have an important point !

Hear (once again ? First time ?) the choral works of Samuel Sebastian Wesley, and

let us discuss afterwards what the organ parts are about....Nothing for amateur singers.

(There are exceptions, of course, like "God wil keep him in perfect peace", which are

best sung A Capella).

 

What is an accompanimental organ ? Besides the provision of many differenciated strenghts

to suit each situation, it is an organ whose harmonics do not disturb; it must have a vast array

of soft, sweet, round colors, that support the singers without spoiling their voices.

 

Now to play such an organ in Solo you can resort to two tricks: 1)- Write the music accordingly,

that is, with wide chords, a daring harmony, something which would sound rather "scratchy"

on a baroque organ.

See Herbert Howells...And Reger!

2)- Add strong Solo stops, which won't be used in choral works (The Solo Division...) save

exceptions of course, and some strong harmonic-corroborating coumpound stops.

See Arthur "who you know" !

 

I was explained all this in 1972 and 1978 in Worcester, with demos.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

Hear (once again ? First time ?) the choral works of Samuel Sebastian Wesley, and let us discuss afterwards what the organ parts are about....Nothing for amateur singers.

Cathedral singing in SSW's time was far from professional. It was downright abysmal! It is most unlikely that any of us would want to listen today to the sort of singing he had to put up with.

 

2)- Add strong Solo stops, which won't be used in choral works (The Solo Division...) save

exceptions of course, and some strong harmonic-corroborating coumpound stops.

Sorry, I don't understand this. What stops did you have in mind? Solo stops are very useful indeed in accompaniment, and not only in psalms either. Even a Tuba can have its uses.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"Cathedral singing in SSW's time was far from professional."

(Quote)

 

Precisely: Samuel-Sebastian spent his time fighting against just that.

His music wasn't written for amateurs at all...

(But now had he known the situation in flemish churches..... )

 

As for Solo stops I meant: with exceptions. Of course the Tuba has its uses

in choral work.

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

"Cathedral singing in SSW's time was far from professional."

(Quote)

 

Precisely: Samuel-Sebastian spent his time fighting against just that.

His music wasn't written for amateurs at all...

(But now had he known the situation in flemish churches..... )

 

Pierre

 

Ironically, SSW was often himself to blame for bad standards. There are a number of documented occasions when he left the choir (and organ) in charge of one of the choristers, while he went off fishing. During the course of researching my degree thesis, I discovered quite a number of interesting facts about Dr. S. S. Wesley - not all of which left him in a favourable light.

 

At least one piece (Blessed be the God and Father) was written for a time when only one man (the dean's butler) and a few choristers were present. I struggle to imagine quite how the first preformance was received. Presumably the organ had to incorporate much of the voice writing (at the places where it is different), in order not to leave gaping holes in the music. This said, I doubt that the first page and a half had quite the effect that it has now....

[Pierre Lauwers]

....And let we not forget "Let the bones which Thou have broken, may rejoice", written with a

broken leg after just another fishing party!

This man was an original, for sure. And even more interesting for it.

One of your most important composers.

I discovered his music *where you know* -we are not that off topic by the way- thanks

to an enthousiast and incredibly skilled team, led by Dr Donald Hunt.

 

Pierre

[contraviolone]

Just to split hairs even further to a yet more unecessarily pendantic level than displayed here, this does the Choral foundations of the Cathedrals of St. Davids, Belfast, Dublin, Edinburgh and many other foundations besides a disservice. Pierre is right - British is the correct term.

 

No disservice intended to those foundations outside England (and therefore outside the Church of England). My comments are directed to the Organ and choral tradition as found in England. Indeed, I can think of two particular organs that I would prefer to listen to in Scotland, over and above a significant number of organs in England, (namely, Paisley Abbey, and the Hradetzky Organ at St Salvador's Chapel, University of St Andrews).

 

'British' is not the correct term, I'm afraid: let's just keep that one for the convenience of Passports, although even this may no longer be the case soon after 2010.

[Pierre Lauwers]

I did not find much differencies, though, in Scotland and Irland....

Now the one who seeks for them, will always find; we belgian could

help as advisors in virtual community differenciation between "worlds"

that live togheter since centuries, not one Mile apart. But then we shall end up

with 270 in Europe instead of 27, isn't it ?

 

Pierre

[contraviolone]

But then we shall end up

with 270 in Europe instead of 27, isn't it ?

 

That's a good point! But Scotland will most certainly dissolve the Union at some point, so the 27 will at least become 28!

[Guest Roffensis]

I completly agree with this excellent post - in my opinion the days have happily gone when each 'cathedral-type' organ is a clone of the one 50 miles to the west/south/east/north, with or without the 32' reed and choice of Party-Horn (Tuba Magna/Miribilis/etc.etc) as funds/space permit.

 

The REAL challenge comes from an organist (example Clive Driskell-Smith, a week ago in Evensong) accompaning (beautifully) the Bairstow Blessed City on the Rieger of Christ Church Cathedral Oxford. A difficult organ, for sure, for this repertoire, but an outstanding performance, none the less!

 

You can keep your clones!

 

[Guest Cynic]

Christ Church Oxford is ok for modern stuff. No one could ever call it a beautiful sound though. To me the only way to make that sound good for choral is to push more stops in, preferably all of them. Sorry, but that's my own very humble opinion. Being ultra conservative in all my outlooks and unashamedly English makes me very careful what I say.

 

R

 

 

Richard, you are not alone in this (general) opinion!

[pcnd5584]

(Roffensis @ Jul 9 2008, 10:41 AM) *

Christ Church Oxford is ok for modern stuff. No one could ever call it a beautiful sound though. To me the only way to make that sound good for choral is to push more stops in, preferably all of them. Sorry, but that's my own very humble opinion. Being ultra conservative in all my outlooks and unashamedly English makes me very careful what I say.

 

I assume that you deleted this after Cynic had quoted it, Richard.

 

I have, on quite a number of occasions, accompanied a choir on this instrument, in services featuring a wide variety of music - in style ranging from Bainton's And I saw a new Heaven to Kelly's setting of the Evening Canticles, in C. I have always found it to be inspirational - and quite up to the task. As I wrote regarding Gloucester, one may have to use different sounds - but there are, nonetheless, many beautiful effects available on this organ. Possibly the only thing I would change would be to install an Hautbois instead of the Voix Humaine on the Récit.

 

I also played voluntaries in a variety of styles - and was gratified to note that viertually every evening a good proportion of the congregation stayed to listen attentively.

 

The action is (or was, the last time I played it) superb. I was also entrusted with keys to Great Tom Quad and to the cathedral itself, in order that I could practise at night. On this instrument, in this beautiful but intimate building, I regard that as a privilege.

 

For the record, I have also enjoyed playing for a number of services on the superb vintage 'Walker' organ at Bristol Cathedral - and in a number of other English cathedrals, such as Chichester, Coventry, Exeter, Gloucester, Ripon, Salisbury, Winchester and Worcester. In every case, I enjoyed the diversity of experience. I further relished the challenge of finding apt (and balancing) registrations - often in a short time. A few weks ago, I played for a festal Evensong at Salisbury Cathedral. Due to a rehearsal for a concert the same evening, we had but twenty minutes' practice in the stalls (I had in addition, ten minutes to set pistons - silently). The service was a success. Even having to balance the choir and congregation as they processed to the east end, to sing Benediction, worked well.

[Vox Humana]

Possibly the only thing I would change would be to install an Hautbois instead of the Voix Humaine on the Récit.

Judging from recordings, the flues seem fine, but it sure could do with reeds that don't sound like fighting cats.

 

I also played voluntaries in a variety of styles - and was gratified to note that viertually every evening a good proportion of the congregation stayed to listen attentively.

Musical place, Oxford.

 

A few weks ago, I played for a festal Evensong at Salisbury Cathedral. Due to a rehearsal for a concert the same evening, we had but twenty minutes' practice in the stalls (I had in addition, ten minutes to set pistons - silently). The service was a success. Even having to balance the choir and congregation as they processed to the east end, to sing Benediction, worked well.

No mean feat on that organ, I should think. The Great can sound very oppressive, especially if used in the psalms. Nice machine though.

[Guest Roffensis]

I assume that you deleted this after Cynic had quoted it, Richard.

 

I have, on quite a number of occasions, accompanied a choir on this instrument, in services featuring a wide variety of music - in style ranging from Bainton's And I saw a new Heaven to Kelly's setting of the Evening Canticles, in C. I have always found it to be inspirational - and quite up to the task. As I wrote regarding Gloucester, one may have to use different sounds - but there are, nonetheless, many beautiful effects available on this organ. Possibly the only thing I would change would be to install an Hautbois instead of the Voix Humaine on the Récit.

 

I also played voluntaries in a variety of styles - and was gratified to note that viertually every evening a good proportion of the congregation stayed to listen attentively.

 

The action is (or was, the last time I played it) superb. I was also entrusted with keys to Great Tom Quad and to the cathedral itself, in order that I could practise at night. On this instrument, in this beautiful but intimate building, I regard that as a privilege.

 

For the record, I have also enjoyed playing for a number of services on the superb vintage 'Walker' organ at Bristol Cathedral - and in a number of other English cathedrals, such as Chichester, Coventry, Exeter, Gloucester, Ripon, Salisbury, Winchester and Worcester. In every case, I enjoyed the diversity of experience. I further relished the challenge of finding apt (and balancing) registrations - often in a short time. A few weks ago, I played for a festal Evensong at Salisbury Cathedral. Due to a rehearsal for a concert the same evening, we had but twenty minutes' practice in the stalls (I had in addition, ten minutes to set pistons - silently). The service was a success. Even having to balance the choir and congregation as they processed to the east end, to sing Benediction, worked well.

 

 

Well that's all very good for you. I still maintain that it sounds like a set of old rusty saucepans and I question it's place in an English Cathedral. I also have played it once, and found it quite vile. That's my humble opinion. I'm entitled to it. Likewise, you are yours, and I appreciate you like it, and I respect this. We can agree to disagree on this one!

 

R

[Pierre Lauwers]

To the attention of the members of the french forum who read this thread,

here is a Video of the Oxford organ (Rieger 1979):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSbD1bwqcmU

 

This is exemplary of what was built on the continent in 1979 as néo-classique organs.

 

Pierre

[contraviolone]

[i still maintain that it sounds like a set of old rusty saucepans and I question it's place in an English Cathedral/quote]

 

Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??

[nfortin]

Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??

Actually, unless I've read it incorrectly, Richard was talking about Christ Church, Oxford. Some of the discussions about this instrument, and that of Gloucester Cathedral, when considering their use for choral accompaniment seem to confuse the issue of whether its possible to work your way around the limitations of the instrument in a way for which it, in all probablity, was not designed to be used with whether its actually good at it.

 

I drive a hatchback. If I've got a sofa to take to the dump I might with some difficulty, and possible ingenuity, manage to get it into the car and succeed in transporting the said article to the dump. I can then state from personal experience that my car is perfectly able to take sofas to the dump. However this can not disguise the fact that really a large volvo estate would be much better for the purpose and a flat bed truck or transit van better still. Therefore when choosing my vehicle, if the majority of its journeys involve taking a sofa to the dump does it not follow that a hatchback is not the best choice?

[Guest Cynic]

Actually, unless I've read it incorrectly, Richard was talking about Christ Church, Oxford. Some of the discussions about this instrument, and that of Gloucester Cathedral, when considering their use for choral accompaniment seem to confuse the issue of whether its possible to work your way around the limitations of the instrument in a way for which it, in all probablity, was not designed to be used with whether its actually good at it.

 

I drive a hatchback. If I've got a sofa to take to the dump I might with some difficulty, and possible ingenuity, manage to get it into the car and succeed in transporting the said article to the dump. I can then state from personal experience that my car is perfectly able to take sofas to the dump. However this can not disguise the fact that really a large volvo estate would be much better for the purpose and a flat bed truck or transit van better still. Therefore when choosing my vehicle, if the majority of its journeys involve taking a sofa to the dump does it not follow that a hatchback is not the best choice?

 

 

A splendid analogy!

 

I believe the situation to be as follows: An imaginative player can find some correct sounds for accompaniment if they search for them at Gloucester or Christ Church, Oxford. These may be splendid instruments for solo work too. The whole point is, on the traditional English [or British] cathedral organ one does not have to spend long in searching, the required effects, balances and colours are readily (and deliberately) there!

 

I would like to recount a small story which I found extremely amusing at the time. I hope that some of you will enjoy it.

Some years ago, Roy Massey appeared at the console in Hereford cathedral while I was rehearsing for a recital. He was grinning from ear to ear. Recently retired from Hereford, he told me he was now playing for some services at Gloucester Cathedral because of recent staff movements etc. What he said was perfectly phrased and delivered verbatim it ran as follows:

 

'I've found out how to accompany on the Gloucester Cathedral organ!!'

 

p a u s e

 

'You only need eight stops!'

 

p a u s e

 

'Mind you, [with a wink!] you mustn't draw them all at once!'

 

 

 

If you're not into accompanying choral music, then you will not miss these subtleties in an instrument - but please allow those of us that are to find them more than a little useful.

[martinstanley]

To the attention of the members of the french forum who read this thread,

here is a Video of the Oxford organ (Rieger 1979):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSbD1bwqcmU

 

This is exemplary of what was built on the continent in 1979 as néo-classique organs.

 

Pierre

 

Ugh! Give me David Coram's performance of this piece on the Walker at Romsey Abbey any day.

[Vox Humana]

Have the manual reeds ever been toned down? They sound far more restrained here than on a CD I have.

[pcnd5584]

We can agree to disagree on this one!

 

R

 

Absolutely! That is part of the fun of this board....

 

[Vox Humana]

Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??

I actually have a lot of sympathy for this view although my taste might not be quite what Mark has in mind. It is actually quite possible to design an English Cathedral type instrument that doesn't have oppressively opaque diapasons, cotton-wool flutes, muddy Open Woods and fat, blaring reeds and yet still has the richness and colour required to accompany a cathedral service. The mid-twentieth-century eclectic organ showed us some possibilities in this direction. (There were those who were scandalised that St George's, Windsor didn't have an Open Wood, entirely missing the point that it didn't actually need one.) But it is perhaps just as well that the brief fashion for eclectic organs evolved into a desire for instruments designed with a bit more integrity - all-purpose organs (don't much like this term, but no one seems to have come up with a better one). The rather few larger modern German organs I have encountered seem to me very much in this latter mould. I find their flues perfectly acceptable, though their reeds tend to be too brash for my taste, being a bit too thin for either English or French music - or any other music I can think of. Maybe I've just heard/played the wrong instruments, but I don't think it's just that. I see no reason on earth why British builders cannot design similar types of organ with equal clarity, but with a more mellow, British tonal flavour. I would like to think that the new Worcester organ will prove exactly this point - I'm sure Ken Tickell is perfectly capable of it - but we'll have to wait and see.